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So now they've voted in favour of starting them at the former HQ of RBS and finishing them at the new HQ of RBS. Perhaps we should make RBS pay for them.
no kidding, eh?
but when my kids are picketing to keep their school open (again!) and the potholes in the streets start to swallow cars and bikes whole and garbage collection becomes a bi-annual affair.....i will console myself by knowing that the tourists riding the sleek, lovely new tram from the airport will see us as a modern, cosmopolitan and [i]European[/i] capital.
i'd laugh if it wasn't so sad. 😕
It's just a shame the SNP didn't have a majority last term otherwise they'd have nipped the entire sorry project in the bud. Unfortunately the other parties all wanted the project to continue and it now seems to be at the stage that it's just as expensive to cancel the project as it is to continue.
I believe that's called "The Union Dividend"
How many miles of track are they going to deliver and what will be the final bill?
It's probably going to end up costing as much per mile as the M74 extension!
Cost per passenger mile travelled is going to be slightly different though when it finally comes into operation.
Ho hum - no idea how long the track will be or how much the final cost will be. But one thing is sure as hell, it will be a hell of a lot more than the current £770m figure that they have. I would be amazed if, when they start digging up St Andrews Square , they dont find lots and lots of problems that push the final figure past a billion.
One of the ways that was discussed to make up for the funding shortfall was a 45% increase in council tax.
Ouch at the possible increase in council tax!
Wasn't one of the SNP's manifesto pledges not to increase council tax for the duration of this parliament?
Yes that is was one of the manifesto pledges, but councils can take the decision to raise council tax and take any resulting penalties on the chin. Which is what was suggeseted here.
For massive infrastructure projects like the M74 extension, Id love to see a full breakdown of where that money goes. I find it ludicrous the cost of things like this and cant help but feel there must be a few "£1000 hammers" purchased along the way! Is there anywhere they publish that type of data?
Surrounded By Zulus - Member
Yes that is was one of the manifesto pledges, but councils can take the decision to raise council tax and take any resulting penalties on the chin. Which is what was suggeseted here.
Ah, I did not know that.
All of this does not bode well for when the time comes to build that second Forth road bridge.
Or maybe they will learn from their previous mistakes?
😉
Who is "they" in this context?Ho hum - MemberAll of this does not bode well for when the time comes to build that second Forth road bridge.
Edinburgh Shitty Concil - learn from mistakes - you're having a laugh.
The leader of the council claimed that the cost overrun and delays were a "glitch" and "not as bad as the scottish parliament building" - wonder what would have to happen before something was a complete unmitigated ****ing disaster.
All of this does not bode well for when the time comes to build that second Forth road bridge.Or maybe they will learn from their previous mistakes?
haha of course not! Second Severn Crossing was about £300 million, they've already got the second Forth crossing estimated at ten times that even though its much smaller, so by the construction time you can add much more onto that cost and then add on your traditional budget overruns. these projects are a dream come true for engineering and consultancy businesses!
I'll never forget the mess they made of George Street when they installed that traffic calming crap. Almost sent the shops there out of business.
This is in a different league of badness from the Scottish parliament building IMO. At least with the parliament you have a building that fulfills a clear need and is working to its intended function. If you're a fan of the building like I am, and factor in the architectural success of it, then it's not even worth complaining about [If you hate it then I guess there's a degree of complaining to be done.]
Contrast that with a toy tram that no one wants and goes nowhere, in relative terms. 15 years into the future it will still seem like an embarrassment.
The parliament building didnt close off half of the major roads in the city for several years either.
I'm moving to Glasgow.
13thfloormonk - Member
I'm moving to Glasgow.
Glasgow still has tramlines.
The only problem is they are buried under several inches of tarmac!
I remember seeing them on Hyndland Road years ago when they had dug part of the road up.
Even if it does get completed for the current estimate (which it won't) then the projected £2M per annum profit once it's up and running is going to have rather a long return-on-investment period...
It really is an unbelievable waste of money. I'm an Edinburgh resident but given the trams don't come anywhere close to servicing anywhere I might want to go to or from then I doubt I'd ever use them. Given the railway lines already skirt the airport surely there must have been a cheaper option to create an airport spur off of that?
Given the railway lines already skirt the airport surely there must have been a cheaper option to create an airport spur off of that?
Every half sensible person in Edinburgh would agree. Unfortunately our council loonies didn't. I suspect that a railway spur would have been built for a fraction of the price, and would have been genuinely useful (actually joined up thinking for travel).
Here's to another 5 years of closed roads and Edinburgh looking like a dump. I'm sure the tourists that the economy depends on will love the metal barriers. 😕
Given the railway lines already skirt the airport surely there must have been a cheaper option to create an airport spur off of that?
Hold on there, way to sensible an idea for some legacy obsessed council joker.
China has managed to build a 26 mile sea bridge for £1bn, i know labour is cheaper but that appears good value for money.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/13987274
Look at the contribution to the English language
On turning up late - "..and about as punctual as an Edinburgh Tram"
On visiting Halfords -"..about as expensive as an Edinurgh Tram"
On watching an event that dragged on for ever "..took as long as the Edinburgh Trams"
..and so on and so Forth
Ho Hum - The general consensus of any driver that has 'driven' the M8 near the Kingston bridge around rush hour has given the M74 a unanimous thumbs up. Worth every penny is a well used phrase. Please do not compare the Edinburgh Sham project to the 5 miles of golden tarmac loveliness that has made Glasgow car drivers very happy!
Given the railway lines already skirt the airport surely there must have been a cheaper option to create an airport spur off of that?
Every single time I've been past Edinburgh Airport on the train I've thought that. Railway literally past the end of the runway but can you get a train to the airport? Oh no, that'd be train right past it then bus or taxi out there again.
Just insane.
They could have resurfaced every one of the utterly shit roads in Edinburgh for the cost of this tram project. Come to Manchester where they're extending the current tram network - on time and on budget and to useful places where people actually want to go.
Oh no, that'd be train right past it then bus or taxi out there again.
Joined up travel! In about 5 years time you can get the train to Waverley, taxi to the nearest trams stop, tram to Gogarburn, then the bus from Gogarburn to the airport. Public travel has never been this integrated!
Edinburgh City Council's new slogan - If two wrongs don't make a right, try a third.
Given the railway lines already skirt the airport surely there must have been a cheaper option to create an airport spur off of that?
There was! Mr Salmond cancelled it.
I thought public transport in Edinburgh was fandabydozee......??
This sounds even worse than the Cambridge Guided Bus thing.
I thought public transport in Edinburgh was fandabydozee......??
Buses are great. Or they were until they dug up every street in the city centre.
I thought public transport in Edinburgh was fandabydozee.
Funny, but it is. Or was, maybe not once it's been sold off to pay for this pile of poo
City Council are still hacked off that they lost the congestion charge referendum and this is how they make the people in the city pay.
EARL was cancelled because the tramline had already been voted through (against the wishes of the incumbent SNP government) leading to (a) a duplication of function and (b) a lack of money for other infrastructure projects.
EARL was cancelled because the tramline had already been voted through (against the wishes of the incumbent SNP government) leading to (a) a duplication of function and (b) a lack of money for other infrastructure projects.
and cause he is a big fannybaws, making everything free to keep the punters happy, and going on about scotland's future economic reliance in marine renewables whilst in reality doing jack all to support investment in it or any other industry http://www.offshorewind.biz/2011/06/13/pelamis-wave-power-lays-off-third-of-its-workforce-uk/
So bigjim, you're not a fan then...
If he can show us the fibre of his fabric I could be converted, but at the moment he's talking the talk but thats it. If renewables are going to be a foundation of scotland's future like he keeps going on about, something drastic needs to happen soon!
I still don't understand exactly why a quote for work, once accepted, can change. If I tell a customer what I'm going to do will cost them £1000, knowing I'll make £100 profit, if my profit drops to zero because of increased costs then I have to swallow that loss and re-think my strategy. Why is it different in this kind of venture? All that seems to happen is people quote stupidly low (or reasonable) prices and then as soon as the first 5 minutes are up there's tooth sucking and head shaking and it's as twice as pricey as the most expensive quote. idiotic.
That'll be the development activity reduced and production beginning. Different skills required, see.bigjim - Member
http://www.offshorewind.biz/2011/06/13/pelamis-wave-power-lays-off-third-of-its-workforce-uk/
http://www.pelamiswave.com/our-projects/spr-at-emec
Continuing the presence of Pelamis technology at EMEC, ScottishPower Renewables (SPR) has ordered a P2 Pelamis machine for demonstration and test. The project will utilise the existing electrical subsea cables, substation and grid connection. [b]The Scottish Government has provided funding for the project[/b] through the WATES scheme and consent via Section 36 of the Electricity Act.
And they wanted £550m-650m for Earl, which would have been heading towards a billion by the time they'd finished... For a station and a length of track?
To put the trams and the new Forth vanity (sorry crossing) project into perspective. The Millau Viaduct cost just short of 400 million euros and is spectacular.
> finishing them at the new HQ of RBS.
um, the airport...
>For a station and a length of track?
loops off the edinburgh-glasgow and fife circle plus tunnels under the airport/runway to link them to an airport station.
guessing the tram ****-up is a mix of badly written contracts and finding a right mess when they started opening the streets up.
lots of public works seem to some in badly over original budget and over time. look at the glentress peel project for a bike related one.
The big issue with the trams, was pretty much everybody who was in a position of authority and dared to question them, was bumped/silenced in some shape or form.
Like a former exec with Lothian Buses, who mentioned the fact they could of provided free buses for x number of years for the cost of the trams, was suddenly given early retirement.
Or another person who mentioned they were effectively spending hundreds of millions to replace the number 22 bus...
mc - Member
The big issue with the trams, was pretty much everybody who was in a position of authority and dared to question them, was bumped/silenced in some shape or form.Like a former exec with Lothian Buses, who mentioned the fact they could of provided free buses for x number of years for the cost of the trams, was suddenly given early retirement.
Or another person who mentioned they were effectively spending hundreds of millions to replace the number 22 bus...
Bumped by who though? Someone big and powerful was masterminding all of this 😐
It's not running to gogarburn, it's running to the airport. It's not like it isn't bad enough without adding misinformation 😉
Garry_Lager - Member15 years into the future it will still seem like an embarrassment.
Not convinced. The elephant in the room is that Edinburgh city centre was/is a traffic disaster. People now are pretending it's because of the tramwork but it's easy to see through that.
The bus service is excellent, but the hubs- Princes St in particular- were already past capacity. The 22's the perfect example (and btw the tram doesn't just replace it, it runs further). At rush-hour you can see snarled up lines of 22s, literally nose to tail trying to load up or move away, and still more people waiting than they can carry. I used to use the 22 and plenty of days I'd have to wait for 3 or more to pass before any had even standing room. They'd thrown more buses onto the route for years but it gets to a point that it just doesn't work any more, and that happened years ago.
So yep the trams have been a fiasco but I still think when it's up and running people will start to see the point. Someone mentioned the expected return- it's not a project that should be judged solely on its own profit.
I will bet a shiny scottish pound that within 10 years of the reduced line being fully operational, there'll be moves on to finish the job.
Just think when the scots do get their own governmnent, and taxes they will be paying forever for the tram set, and with no oil to sell, theyre going to be stuck for cash.
Princes Street [i]does[/i] get snarled up with buses at rush hour, but how much better will it be when there is one less lane for them to use in order to keep it clear for the tram?