[Closed] Economic Growth?*

Blair and Brown gave everyone in the public sector a pay rise and in the EMA started [s]paying[/s] providing travel expenses to allow children from poorer backgrounds to [s]go to school[/s] continue onto 6th form education.

Fixed that for you. Is this your copy of the Express?

+1 what MSP said. German trade unions arent afraid of flexing their muscles and labour laws there can be hard to deal with. Somehow German business people, workers and the banks who lend to the enterprise find a way to muck together and make things work without the toys being thrown out of the cot.

Personally I think it has a lot to do with the character of the people, good eggs the Germans, (my second unfashionable statement for today) and the fact that the backbone of their economy isnt actually the big manufacturers like BMW or Siemens, its the medium to small sized manufacturers, the Mittelstand, who are often still family owned.

Exhibit A - The episode of Grand Designs where a couple in Surrey bought a pre-fab Huf Haus almost literally off the shelf in Germany, the guys arrived in their van with all the kit, knocked it together bang on schedule and waved cheerio. The British workmen they had to deal with werent quite so helpful.

.

Exhibit B another episode of grand designs the german flat roofing company turned up and left leaving a leaking roof so bad that had to be ripped up.

Hah I didnt see that one. Fairynuf.

Well if spending does not equal income and the growth of Georges masterplan did not work and the defecit has not beeen cut as much what would you cut some more? The omly alternative is to increase tax some more? If you tax some more would you tax the rich or the poor?

#
I_did_dab - Member

Can somebody explain why growth is a good thing? I can't help wondering on a finite planet with finite resources, how can everyone's economy grow?

Well thats a whole 'nother question. capitalism is built on continual growth. IMO a no growth society is essential - thats the dark green position but until we rearrange our economy away from capitalism then we need growth

Seriously? That old chestnut. What about all the extra money the government got (well above market expectations) when they sold the 3G licenses?

Not exactly an old chestnut is it?

He sold the gold for 6 times less than what its worth today.

I think an additional £13bn would come in handy for the UK right now!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jul/26/gdp-figures-economic-growth

Interesting analysis

Personally I think it has a lot to do with the character of the people, good eggs the Germans

Not entirely convinced it's simply down to general 'goodness' (as if one whole nation were better than another). I've had so much sh*t and very little help from many Germans in the last 6 months.

I think it's in the national psyche to remain focused on the task at hand though. Even at the expense of niceties like customer service or compassion...

TJ - Agreed. I think it is post WW2 consumer capitalism, based on planned obsolescence, that is particularly dependent on continual growth. I see no reason why you can't have a stable market based economy.

Osborne (and the ONS) really shouldn't talk about the impact of the weather, the wedding, and buying tickets because it only reiterates how fragile growth is.

edit - and Martha Kearney is owning him for it on Radio 4.

0.2% your aving a larf.. up or down you and i wont notice any difference what we do notice is our daily costs.. my gas and laccy deal ends in a week and prices will double almost from 15p per unit to 25 fro leccy and gas will more than double form 4p to 8.79 per unit. fuel having dipped slightly to 1.32 a litre is now back at 1.38 and thats with the euro countries freeing up reserves when that ends in sept? as for those not affected we all pay more for fuels.. those working for the govt have allegedly had zero pay rises but the school carpark is still full of discoveries and mercs check out how much your GP earns.. even Tesco just gave another minimum 2.5% increase to staff.
this govt needs to grow some and make some real cuts to the numbers it employs? how many teachers were laid off in july? how many fewer MP's did we elect will we elect next time. my local council is privitising its housing stock and is taking on more people to maintain them as well as contracting out some maintenance services.. Cameron must cut more..

[i]I think an additional £13bn would come in handy for the UK right now![/i]

Indeed, but had we still got it, would we sell it now, or hang onto it wondering what it's future value might rise to?

He sold the gold for 6 times less than what its worth today.

I think an additional £13bn would come in handy for the UK right now!

Well he sold it at an average of $275/oz [not your quoted $250] and it was estimated that his poor judgement/action cost the UK £2bn
His predecessor managed to spunk £3.3bn in a single day trying to keep the pound at a level with the Euro

The guardian seem to think it closer to £5Bn
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/blog/2009/jan/08/economy-gordonbrown
Many others have stated it to be £6.6Bn

The guardian seem to think it closer to £5Bn

But that's like saying the house I sold at the bottom of the market for £28k in 1989 cost me £100K as it's now worth 128
Selling at the bottom of the market actually cost me around £4k

It's far more like saying you sold your house in 2000 for £250k and in 2010 it would have been worth £1M.
[img] [/img]

Same difference TBH

Yeah maybe. There's a fair point to be made that the gold market was (at the time) looking stable. GB couldn't have known that the prices would rocket in the following 10 years. Just a bit of a bastard to have "lost" all of that money/gold.

Wunundred! 😀

cant see how the olympics could be supressing growth. It's keeping me very busy indeed...

[i]I'm alright Jack sod everyone else... [/i] 😐

The problem is no-one really knows what the answers are.

No, the problem is that the answers are staring us all in the face but no-one's got the balls to actually come out and say that what we, as a society need to do is tackle the rampant greed which has seen a steep rise in the disparity of wealth in this country. Too few people taking too large a cut. Fat cats taking six, seven figure salaries while increasing numbers of people are finding it difficult just to get by.

There's enough money to go round, it just needs to be distributed more fairly and evenly. But while there are people out there who think that owning a speedboat or holiday home abroad is more important than actually helping out those in their own communities, then we'll continue with the same old crap that's always existed....

[i]But I deserve my speedboat because I work so much harder than anyone else no it's true![/i]

as in "me" and 30,000+ other people. ****.

Fred nails it again.

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jul/25/britain-rich-poor-in-this-together?INTCMP=SRCH ]we're all in it together?[/url]

Stoner; you bandy all sorts of figures and stats around, but you have no idea of the reality of the socioeconomic impact of the Olympics on an already deprived area of London. You chose to believe all the propaganda and spin, but you won't actually get off your arse and have a look for yourself what's really happening in this area. And then you call me a ****. How very intelligent.

Tell you what, if you fancy learning something, come down and I'll take you to have a look round what's happening here. We can go and have a chat with some of the thousands of small business owners who are going to be forced out of the area by all the new firms moving into the Westfield centre. Come and have a chat with some of the thousands of workers made redundant by the forced compulsory purchase orders of the land the companies they worked for owned. Some of the people forced from their homes because of the 'redevelopment' of the area. Come and see some of the local services which cater for some very vulnerable people, closed down because funds are being diverted into schemes that promote the Olympics. Meet some of the many thousands of workers on the site being paid just the minimum wage, who are then faced with huge accommodation costs.

Not to mention the massive environmental damage that has occured locally.

Or of course you can just stay safe behind your keyboard spouting crap. As long as you can buy a few more bottles of nice wine, eh?

So can anyone offer a balanced view as to what the actual impact of the Olympics is?

So can anyone offer a balanced view

TO summarise: It costs us all a shed-load of money we can't afford, some mega-rich corporate banking blokes get a nice jolly, West Ham get a new ground. We all pay for it for ever and if you really fancied it you could go and have a look round some rusting white elephants in saaaaaaaaarf laaaaaaaaardan.

George Osbourne is always warning us about the Greek economy, we seem to be hell-bent on repeating their Olympic folly. This is what a 'legacy' looks like

[img] http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRaontmP8Mrm1ft0xRt_viywaXju5ugJpFydxTeQwFxwdA0hcOi [/img]

[img] http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRZ1n6sIjFSJjxw4aAmbkKzGW4g-aJfun3jGgW12T-P5DNKl-PVww [/img]

Are you mad?

Well I quite fancy going on Elfin's sightseeing tour...

So can anyone offer a balanced view as to what the actual impact of the Olympics is?

The benefits will be outweighed by the costs. Socially and economically. But some people will profit immensely from it, at the expense of lots of others.

Same old same old.

Olympics - scotland is paying for a share of while getting none of the benefits.

it was an opportunity to get away from the overblown white elephant of the modern Olympics back to some sort of semblance of sense. Opportunity missed

Olympics - [s]scotland[/s] [b]everywhere except london[/b] is paying for a share of while getting none of the benefits.

FTFY TJ

The benefits will be outweighed by the costs

But has anyone done a complete 360 CBA (cost ben's analysis) of it?

Not just the legacy but people like Stoner that are benefiting now. Looked at the impact on the local community that you speak of?
Assessed the benefit of Scotland not having to put up with being invaded by English holiday makers during it...

Well 0.2% may not be much but it has matched expectations and the market is pretty happy with it... stirling up 1/2 a US cent and over 1 cent against the euro.

Here's the thing... and you are not going to like it one little bit.

You have to keep the market happy,

And that's why there will not be a divergence from the budget cuts. One whiff of a change of heart on that and the UK will be smashed outta sight. You think you’re paying a lot for commodities now, how about 15% devaluation of stirling… oh and that nice floating rate mortgage at about 2% that will double before your eyes

Love him or loathe him Osbourne has done well at keeping the markets happy.

i know olympic sponsors maccy Ds are opening a special olympic sized outlet opposite the main venue, people can get jobs there ! 🙄

has anyone walked round the dilapidated olympic park in athens, its a ghost town of disintegrating buildings and overgrown carparks with most things padlocked up and a couple of outdoor basketball courts the only things in use

has anyone walked round the dilapidated olympic park in athens, its a ghost town of disintegrating buildings and overgrown carparks with most things padlocked up and a couple of outdoor basketball courts the only things in use

Nice underground though 🙂

Is the same true for other Olympic cities as it is for Athens?

The Greeks are hardly a bastion of common sense.

The markets are greedy and fickle, they are not interested in long term growth, just next months bonus, we actually need to start making economic decisions based on the needs of the majority of the country, not a few elitists sat in London offices.

Looked at the impact on the local community that you speak of?

Yes I have actually, have you? I actually live there, so have possibly slightly more insight about what's actually going on than folk who get their information from propaganda in the media and that. Loads of 'bread and circuses' exercises going on to promote the 'legacy' of the games, but no actual proof or indication that it will be of any genuine benefit to the vast majority of people that live in this are. Millions being spent on junkets to attract corporate sponsors.

Just one example of this is in housing. A while ago I met a young woman with a little girl who is blind. They'd bin pushed from one form of 'temporary accommodation' to another, with no permanent home for them in sight for the foreseeable future. Meanwhile, loads of blocks of flats are going up, with the promise of 'affordable' housing for 'locals'. Now, you don't need to be a genius to work out that those homes won't actually be affordable to most people living on lower than average incomes. And £250,000+ 1-bed flats aren't really what families need.

So with all this wonderful 'legacy' stuff going on, why is that woman and her child, people in genuine need of a decent home, suffering they way they are? Aren't we sposed to have a society that cares for those that need help?

It's disgusting. What's worse, is that many new developments are standing empty cos no-one's got the money to buy the places. Entire blocks are being used to house people who need social housing, at incredible public expense, because the developers can't sell them.

Ah well, at least we'll have an nice velodrome and swimming pool eh? Cos that's what people really need, not homes, education or healthcare...

Stoner's gone a bit quiet, hasn't he? Maybe he's off topping up his Oyster Card for his impending visit to the East End...

pound doing well against the euro, do me a favour, considering the trouble the euro zone has had over the debt crisis the performance of the pound really shows what the markets (the Chinese) think of our economy

pound vs euro for the last 12 months only a 10% devaluation

Yes I have actually, have you?

Elfin - no need to be so agressive... my question is sparked out of interest. If I had done so, I wouldn't need to ask it, would I?

I'll read the rest of your post now.

310 million quid is a bargain for a swimming pool. Its got a diving board and everyfink

I'm witnessing a 'private economy' around here. Small businesses talking to each other, trying to avoid the taxman. Lots of properties being developed and bought with cash.
It's a real sense of feeling hard done by, they blame government and the banks whom they feel are looking after number one. So they're now doing the same.
Sounds stupid, but if lots of million plus businesses are doing here how many are doing it up and down the country. And what effect is it having on the economy?

Ah so his latest ban has run its course. Volume at 11 as per.....

You are of course free to enter into debate with people on here, McBoo, and challenge them if you disagree.

Freedom of Speech and all that. 😉

Out of interest in the actual 'legacy for local people' thing, I looked into the reality of just how accessible a venue like the velodrome will be. Apparently, you will need to be a member of an affiliated cycle club to be able to use the facilities, and this will undoubtedly cost money. So, not just a 'turn up and ride for a few quid' type deal. I'm hoping there will be taster sessions like at Manchester, but I'm not holding my breath. So, it seems it will actually be quite difficult in fact to use the venues, and undoubtedly very expensive.

And it's just a velodrome/bunch of sports facilities (most of which will actually disappear after the Lympics is over). What if I need a hospital, schools, colleges and universities? Y'know, proper actually beneficial stuff?

And the only city in the last 30 odd years that has benefitted economically from the Lympics is Barcelona. Sydney made huge losses, as did Seoul, Atlanta etc. And Athens was just a national disaster.

Tell me how exactly that pattern will be broken here?

I'm slightly disappointed. Traditionally elf being banned was the cue for a game of "guess his new ID".

Now, you don't need to be a genius to work out that those homes won't actually be affordable to most people living on lower than average incomes

For someone who claims to have their finger on the pulse you arent very well informed fred.

Welcome to http://www.triathlonhomes.com/ the social housing provider for the former Olympic Atheletes village site. Of the 4,500 new housing units being constructed about a third will be social access housing run by a social housing trust to provide:

Intermediate rented: 354
This is where rent is set at a certain percentage below market rates, usually about 20% lower than the standard market rate.

Shared ownership / shared equity: 350
Various shared ownership and equity models will be available, providing support for first time buyers to get on the property ladder.

Social rented: 675
This refers to homes where rent is set below market rates, at a rate that is affordable for people on low incomes.

As any fule know (well I can think of one that probably doesnt) there's no such thing as "affordable housing" in respect of the owner occupier market, no matter the best intentions. Affordable accommodation can only be genuinely delivered through the social rental market or the public sector equivalent: council houses.

Its got a diving board and everything

Which no one will be allowed to use H&S and all that.

I think the idea behind the 'legacy' stuff is that people will come to use whatever facilities remain, and spend money in the process.

The blind kid's mother might not be able to afford the £250m houses, but someone will, and that person will live there and spend some money locally and help the local economy. Which could result in the woman having a job.

That's the theory anyway.

And it's pointless comparing us with Greece binners - totally different situation.

Social rented: 675
This refers to homes where rent is set below market rates, at a rate that is affordable for people on low incomes.

Hmm, do you have any idea of the numbers of people awaiting social housing in Tower Hamlets, Newham, Walthamstow and Hackney?

(Clue: it's a few more than 675...)

I'm having tandoori chicken and an aubergine curry so I'll be away for a little while. Oh the sybaritic decadence...

The greek residential legacy was abandoned by the government with minimal infrastructure and no service provision (doctors, schools etc).

The master plan for the legacy park incorporates all of that and a substantial amount of that provision is already committed to by the private sector. The remainder of the legacy sites will be coming to the market over the rest of the year and there's plenty of interest in being involved in creating a new community in Newham.

Of course since Fred is fully informed of the entire Olympic Park Legacy plans he will be able to tell me why it will never work and will turn out like Athens ...
... and then I can help him pick a nice RAL colour for the lettering on his next project because I read magazines occasionally.

Hmm, do you have any idea of the numbers of people awaiting social housing in Tower Hamlets, Newham, Walthamstow and Hackney?

that's all youve got? A complaint that the olympics wont single-handedly solve the East London social housing shortage? I think you're argument just ran out of puff there.

"We shouldnt have the Olympics 'cause I met a poor little blind girl"

Give me a break

you're

🙂

damn.

I used to live in Stratford when I went to QMC, nearly 30 years ago. My brother still lives in the area.
Stratford looks a damned lot better now and it will soon have a John Lewis! Utterly amazing, I hope they employ some local people. The thought that Stratford would one day attract such investment is hard to believe.

Economy bumping along the bottom, nothing more than we could expect. I do think Quantitative Easing money should be spent on infrastructure investment rather than giving it to banks to shuffle about.

did darcy wait 15mins b4 pointing that out?

did darcy wait 15mins b4 pointing that out?

🙂

I think the gentleman's rule is that once you're quoted, you can't really edit 😛 Only avenging the pointing out of my earlier faux pas anyway...enjoying the debate though.

that's all youve got?

No, I've got loads more. I just can't be bothered when the level of 'debate' is no more than playground bickering.

See, look:

"We shouldnt have the Olympics 'cause I met a poor little blind girl"

Give me a break

Total lack of understanding of what I'm actually on about, lack of awareness of the reality of issues faced by local people, and a lack of respect.

Which is why I can't be bothered any more. I've said my piece and that's all that matters, quite frankly. All that will happen will be the usual 'try to get Elfin banned' type crap so end of.

Stratford looks a damned lot better now and it will soon have a John Lewis!

Arguable; loads of wildlife habitat destroyed, and Stratford will have a Prada shop. In one of the most deprived boroughs of the UK. Fantastic. 🙄

Oh, the curry was lovely, btw. Having strawberries now.

and Stratford will have a Prada shop. In one of the most deprived boroughs of the UK.

reductio ad absurdum.

no more than playground bickering.

Ah, the Scottish defence 🙂

If the legacy of the Olympics is that a whole lot of young profesionals move into the Stratford area from where they can commute to good jobs in the West End, City and Canary Wharf then I'd say that was a total result for London.

If the legacy of the Olympics is that a whole lot of young profesionals move into the Stratford area from where they can commute to good jobs in the West End, City and Canary Wharf then I'd say that was a total result for London.

And the people who already live there are forced out, to live in another run down borough with a different name, but as long as the ones that have already lucked out in life are looked after that's aright.

People move on. My parents did. I did. Old communities fade away, new ones form. I have no problem with that, if I did I'd still be sitting in my mum's front room.

15 years ago my neighborhood was pretty much all white/Irish working class Londoners. They've all moved to Essex to be replaced by young couples with kids, most of whom are various shades of beige, including my own. It's just the way things are in cities, it's probably why they work so well and what makes them such great places to live.

People move on. My parents did. I did. Old communities [s]fade away[/s] get booted out, new ones [s]form[/s] use their wealth to colonise. I have no problem with that, if I did I'd still be sitting in my mum's front room.

FTFY

<crosses Essex off visiting list>

Nothing wrong with Essex

Its where all us city boys live

Nothing wrong with Essex

Its where all us city boys live

😆

Elfin, your point regarding benefit.

"And the only city in the last 30 odd years that has benefitted economically from the Lympics is Barcelona. Sydney made huge losses, as did Seoul, Atlanta etc. And Athens was just a national disaster."

1984 los angeles games had some really good out comes in various areas so it can be done.

theres always the example of the montreal olympics

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Summer_Olympics#Legacy ]The Olympics were a financial disaster for Montreal, as the city faced debts for 30 years after the Games had finished. The Quebec provincial government took over construction when it became evident in 1975 that work had fallen far behind schedule; work was still under way just weeks before the opening date, and the tower was not built. Mayor Jean Drapeau had confidently predicted in 1970 that "the Olympics can no more have a deficit than a man can have a baby", but the debt racked up to a billion dollars that the Quebec government mandated the city pay in full. This would prompt cartoonist Aislin to draw a pregnant Drapeau on the telephone saying, "Allo, Morgentaler?" in reference to a Montreal abortionist.

The Olympic Stadium was designed by French architect Roger Taillibert. It is often nicknamed The Big O as a reference to both its name and to the doughnut-shape of the permanent component of the stadium's roof, though The Big Owe has been used to reference the astronomical cost of the stadium and the 1976 Olympics as a whole. It has never had an effective retractable roof, and the tower was completed only after the Olympics. In December 2006 the stadium's costs were finally paid in full.[8] The total expenditure (including repairs, renovations, construction, interest, and inflation) amounted to C$1.61 billion. Today, despite its huge cost, the stadium is devoid of a major tenant, after the Montreal Expos moved in 2005.[/url]

Well we have two premiership teams bitch fighting over the olympic stadium, so lacking a "major tenant" isnt really a problem for Stratford.

We've also had 8 bidders whittled down to 3, then to one to take over the athletes village. All that's left is the remainder of the legacy park for which substantial interest has already been shown and the park hasnt even been put out to the market yet. Each of these sales, BTW< raises massive amount of money to pay back the build. I dont think the build cost breaks even, but it's not a massive net loss.

Elfin - maybe the 'legacy' will include Waitrose ... preferably one selling avocados 😉

But I've already got a Waitrose near me. Don't need another one.

If the legacy of the Olympics is that a whole lot of young profesionals move into the Stratford area from where they can commute to good jobs in the West End, City and Canary Wharf then I'd say that was a total result for London.

And the people who already live there are forced out, to live in another run down borough with a different name, but as long as the ones that have already lucked out in life are looked after that's aright.

MSP answers this pretty much as I would. Interesting that McBoo sees only 'young professionals' as those deserving of decent homes and good easy access to work. Sod those who've grafted in crappy low-paid jobs, eh? Yeah, make the scum go and live somewhere else, so they don't make the place look so untidy... 🙄

So, Stoner; got yer Oyster Card charged up then?

We've also had 8 bidders whittled down to 3, then to one to take over the athletes village. All that's left is the remainder of the legacy park for which substantial interest has already been shown and the park hasnt even been put out to the market yet. Each of these sales, BTW< raises massive amount of money to pay back the build. I dont think the build cost breaks even, but it's not a massive net loss.

Well, since its being built with a lot of public money, after the Olympics it should be kept for Public use, NOT sold to private enterprise for less than cost who will then charge us the public for the privilege of access.

Also, its clear what will happen to that part of London...it will become a desert, a rich desert with all the undesirables shifted out to the fringes. You only need to look at the other great project there in the last few decades (Docklands) to see where this is heading.

Of course there are a lot of west ham UTD supporters there, so clearing them out may not be so bad after all... 😉

Yup - quite a lot of publc money - cost of the Olympics £9.3bn ... interesting that it was protected in the Comprehensive Spending Review when the DCMS budget (which covers grassroots participation in sports and the arts) was cut by 25%. It was claimed that this was because the Games budget was already committed to contracts, but somehow this doesn't seemed to have stopped the rest of the public sector having to pull out of existing contracts due to government cuts, plus apparently the huge 'contingency' budget of the games also needed to be protected despite the fact that it wasn't committed expenditure. But hey, apparently 'the eyes of the world will be on us' for the Olympics, let's just hope they don't look in the wrong places ...

Maybe I'm just feeling a bit frustrated about the impact of cuts on community sports, recreation and physical activity having spent the day going through the evidence on the substantial benefits from participation - everything from reducing obesity, improving mental health, providing opportunities (and even careers) for some of the sectors of society that face the greatest challenges. And then discussing how we will have to reduce support for delivery due to governments cuts ... What 'legacy' was it we were talking about?

5thElefant - Member

Goes back to the aftermath of ww2. Germany was rebuilt as a manufacturing superpower with US cash. We were broke and on strike.

Common misconception- the UK got the most Marshall Plan money by an enormous margin. Germany received less than half as much US funding than the UK. Meanwhile Germany paid reparations and faced crippling restrictions on industry.

What 'legacy' was it we were talking about?

werent you paying attention

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jul/20/mcdonalds-olympics-biggest-mac-diner ]macdonalds are opening the worlds largest maccy ds![/url]

But hey, apparently 'the eyes of the world will be on us' for the Olympics, let's just hope they don't look in the wrong places ...

What, like Tower Hamlets, Hackney, Newham; some of the most deprived areas of the UK?

Oh....

Sod off, Hackney is great and doing alot better than most of our northern cities that are suffering from the hit to manufacturing etc. New shops, bars and cafes every month, new housing going up all over, private and social. Been here 20 years and its never looked better.

The wider economy is clearly stuffed however, or at least becalmed to be polite but who really has a sensible idea? Not the gits in Labour that got us in this fix with their freespending ways from 2001 to 2010. I can't avoid the conclusion that we are all screwed by indebtedness, government, corporate and private and only a long spell of inflation is going to cure it. Japan lost a decade and probably so shall we.

be more than a decade if osbornes at the rudder!

Not the gits in Labour that got us in this fix with their freespending ways from 2001 to 2010