I used to think that anything which encouraged more people to enjoy the outdoors had to be a good thing. More people gaining an appreciation for the things I enjoy is probably going to help me too. Now I’m not so sure. But how much of that is just gatekeeping? I’m not sure.
I guess the sticking point for me is the attitude of "you're enjoying something that I've been enjoying for a while, but you're enjoying it in a slightly different manner so are clearly the antichrist" rather than being happy that more people are sharing your interests.
I understand of course that as soon as the lowest common denominators get involved things can go sideways, shitheads ruining beauty spots under the guise of 'wild camping' and so forth. But is that what's happening here? I don't know either TBH.
weight and trail conditions. ebikes in very soft ground will make a mess. the spikeyer the tyre the more mess. with a normal bike you`d be walking or going somewhere else.
Walkers have been making that self-same argument about cyclists for decades. "Cheeky trails," anyone?
Is that a problem? To expect a minimum level of knowledge in order to progress?
I don't see how e-bikes change that vs regular bikes, or hardtails vs full suspension - 'skill-compensators' and all that guff.
If you want rules about how/what/when to progress join a road racing league and get your UCI-stickered bike, or go trad climbing where you'll either learn well or get properly hurt. MTB is simple, easy.
If you enter via the ebike route you are bypassing a path of learning.
"my arms and legs are all the suspension I need" etc.
You're bypassing a bit of fitness, that's all? That's no bad thing for many people - take it or leave it, gain it or not.
Is that a problem? To expect a minimum level of knowledge in order to progress?
Who is defining this knowledge? What's your "minimum level"? They can't play because they don't know as much as you so it's not fair?
You don’t turn up to 10′ drop without doing smaller drops first. Same principle. If you enter via the ebike route you are bypassing a path of learning. You are buying your ticket in with no idea.
... so what? This affects you how?
I don't need a decade's experience of pumping a Raleigh Grifter up Bow Fell to realise that a ten foot bomb hole might be a bit challenging.
There is nothing wrong with being ignorant but you can’t jump to the same position but ebikes can give people the feeling that they can jump ahead.
Well again, so what? Your primary objection to ebikes is that the presumed inexperienced riders might hurt themselves on a black route? I don't think I believe that.
Has anyone ever stopped you from doing something daft on a bike? From riding beyond your ability? Not since puberty, I'd wager.
If you're supposing to dictate to others what they can and can't do for little other reason than because they're slightly different from you then yes, that may a problem. Who are you to be policing other people's fun?
Yeah, I've no problem with the gatekeeping thing. It was the very first thing I pointed out when I'd heard of ebikes - that idiots are going to end up places they've no place being.
For people who don't think this is a problem tell that to the walkers who are getting mighty effed off at idiots with no idea flying down the Ranger path on Snowdon, not only abusing the agreement (which can be withdrawn), but endangering people.
Without ebikes they'd be sat at home, being fat, in front of their xboxes. And that's where they should be.
Earning your stripes has an awful lot of merit. You start off slow, it takes ages, only people with a certain type of mindset ever make it - because it used to be hard.
But that horse has bolted, unfortunately.
Oi. It's a Playstation!
For people who don’t think this is a problem tell that to the walkers who are getting mighty effed off at idiots with no idea flying down the Ranger path on Snowdon, not only abusing the agreement (which can be withdrawn), but endangering people.
If more people are riding Snowdon with less skill and experience then you'd expect there to be a significant increase in mountain rescue and air ambulance activity up there to attend to damaged riders? I haven't heard that this is happening.
It was the very first thing I pointed out when I’d heard of ebikes – that idiots are going to end up places they’ve no place being.
The walkers said that about ATBs in about 1986.
For people who don’t think this is a problem tell that to the walkers who are getting mighty effed off at idiots with no idea flying down the Ranger path on Snowdon, not only abusing the agreement (which can be withdrawn), but endangering people.
Heard this about MTBs in about 2006.
This is a completely pointless argument.
People ride the bike they want to and anything short of a rigid single speed compensates for skill or fitness to some extent. I have met some very polite ebikers and two absolute knobs who rode into me on a climb. I have also met nice bike riders and some absolute knobs.
I don't think the type of bike you ride make any difference, people need some politenes tolerance.
And I'm sorry, but this hits a nerve because it's rife in fandom and it's toxic AF. Geeks are largely welcoming and inclusive but there's always someone who has to be a gatekeeping asshole.
I have a friend whose daughter is hugely into Doctor Who. The kid is, I dunno, "a few" years old? I'm not great with kids' ages, sorry. They collect, well, everything, their house has more "collectables" than your average Forbidden Planet. She damn near exploded when Whittaker was revealed, she was obsessed, finally she has "her Doctor." Her not-mum (long story) made the outfit, they tracked down 13's sonic screwdriver - it had to be the official one and not a knock off - she's all about the 13th. And I've seen a grown-ass adult tell her that a girl can't be the Doctor and she can't be a fan because the show started before she was born.
I mean...
I don't know how often I have to say this. So long as they're not harming anyone else, why can't we just let people enjoy things. Hell, you might find that you have more in common than you think, maybe you could pass on your knowledge and experience? (The plot twist to the above is the kid's knowledge is encyclopedic, I'd bet good money that she knew more about the show than he did.)
Without ebikes they’d be sat at home, being fat, in front of their xboxes. And that’s where they should be.
Yeah, **** the fatties, right? It's their own fault. They've no business trying to do something about it, they'll all be dead soon anyway and good riddance.
My ex was overweight, and was a far better MTBer than I'll ever be. The jeers she got from randoms were a regular occurrence, "look at that fat bitch, what's she doing on a bike?"
A few weeks back (this is true) I nearly got run into by someone who lost control of a mobility scooter. They fumbled the throttle and I had to leap out of the way. Conclusion: remove all the wheelchair ramps, then they'll be sat at home where they should be?
Heard this about MTBs in about 2006.
Heard this about MTBs in about 2023. 😁
^^^er, dr who?
Anyway, as the thread's still going, ebikes mean:
- more people ride, (good, for them)
- people ride more, (good, for them)
- more people ride more on the Moor, a finite resource in terms of trashed trails and walker tolerance,
On the latter point, I ride on the moor more than most so am in absolutely no position to criticise but please allow some ambivalence. I'm yet to tut or spoil anyone's fun.
I think most people agree there should be limits on what can be allowed to access the great outdoors without restriction.
I don't see many people arguing that you should be allowed to take a 400cc moto-X bike on the local trails. Same with 3kW electric motorbikes.
Clearly there is a line, we're just arguing about where that line should be.
^^^er, dr who?
analogy /əˈnalədʒi/ (noun)
a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.
There's a comment up there re Cannock Chase which resonates with me. ---^
I've ridden the Chase for years (When did FtD "open"?) and for the last 6 years or so as a local.
I've experienced nobbery from people on Amish bikes but, sweet Jesus Christ, the behaviour of Ebikers has risen to epic levels of entitled, nasty bellendery.
The most disheartening behaviour is simply "pushing past" anyone they catch up - no verbals, no waiting (and let's be honest, on the Dog the sections are quite short).
Seeing yet another less confident rider "buzzed" by an ebike is bloody disheartening.
It isn't about "gatekeeping" and, as much it's a cheap trope, it does seem to be fat biffers, dropper post lowered, motor whining as it hefts them along in the smallest cog. Cash rich, time poor, manners missing.
Chats and stories exchanged with riders of all types of bikes, so it's not simply the propulsion method.
I think etiquette boards at the trail head might help - for all cycling users.
Based on my personal experience I view ebikes as cocaine on wheels. Great fun but not suitable for my addiction susceptible personality.
And also like cocaine I don't need those who partake to tell me every twenty minutes how good it feels.
Based on my personal experience I view ebikes as cocaine on wheels. Great fun but not suitable for my addiction susceptible personality.
first time I swung a leg over one was very much the scene in trainspotting where Tommy tries heroin and his mates shake their heads in worry because he's liking it too much*. I gave a little push on the pedal and my legs were transformed in to steel pistons as the bike leapt uphill... (My legs are not steel pistons.)
*An apt analogy.
first time I swung a leg over one was very much the scene in trainspotting where Tommy tries heroin and his mates shake their heads in worry because he’s liking it too much*. I gave a little push on the pedal and my legs were transformed in to steel pistons as the bike leapt uphill… (My legs are not steel pistons.)
I refused to ride an ebike until I was ready to buy one because I knew that as soon as I rode one that would be it, I would have to get one.
100% @BaronVonP7
It isn’t about “gatekeeping” and, as much it’s a cheap trope, it does seem to be fat biffers, dropper post lowered, motor whining as it hefts them along in the smallest cog. Cash rich, time poor, manners missing.
These people wouldn't be there if it wasn't for ebikes.
Yes, everyone could do with more manners all-around. But that's just wishing for human nature to change. And the fact is - without these electric motors then this level of arse-ness wouldn't be happening - because a sizeable chunk of these owners just straight-up would not sweat their backsides off to do the sport.
Make it a practically zero-effort sport (and yes, I've ridden them, in comparison it pretty much is) then this is the result.
But we're going off topic. - I clearly hate the things. I don't ride in mixed groups. But I don't express my hatred out on the trail - they sail on past, and that's fine. Only time there's argy-bargy is when an idiot does an idiot thing - and unfortunately that's happening more often now idiots who would never be there, now are.
These people wouldn’t be there if it wasn’t for ebikes.
Aaand that's the great division right there, isn't it.
1) "These people wouldn’t be there if it wasn’t for ebikes" - so aren't e-bikes brilliant, empowering people to get out and ride who wouldn't otherwise be able to do so!
2) "These people wouldn’t be there if it wasn’t for ebikes" - so aren't e-bikes shit, encouraging the great unwashed to come over here polluting our trails and ruining it for everyone!
Jeepers 10 pages!
Yeah, but without the battery assist it'd only have been three.
Well again, so what? Your primary objection to ebikes is that the presumed inexperienced riders might hurt themselves on a black route? I don’t think I believe that
No, you miss understand, I am not explaining myself correctly. I think you are taking my examples as specifics and not as points of a concept.
The objection is it short cuts the rider to be able to ride in a certain manor with out the learning curve. Due to this you get increased conflict and mistakes made at a higher speed with more momentum. It's the increased damage and danger to others. I don't care about people hurting themselves.
It's like the teenager that's a bit enthusiastic makes a mistake is unintentionally rude with their mates. It happens. Ebikes are not bad that's not why I am saying. They do however allow many more inexperienced people to be either unintentionally (or maybe intentionally) rude or damage things, the difference is a significant number groups of middle-age men in these situations are entitled. A bad bit of ebikes is that a lot of these guys would not be there is it was not for ebikes. It's an enabler for them into the past time. I hope that is a little clearer. It's quite hard to explain.
Nope @cougar. That's clearly a massive oversimplification and misrepresentation of all that's been discussed.
But if that's what you need to tell yourself, crack on.
I rode down Jacobs Ladder in '98 on a HT with 80mm forks, when all I'd ridden was the local woods.
I rode Fort Bill black (slowly) when all I'd ridden previously were bits of the Peak
Rode all the Black's at BPW when I'd never ridden a bike park before. Didn't ride them quick, but rode them
If something scares me, I'll generally stop and look and have to work up the courage. There's a rooty drop in the local woods that it took me a year to get the courage to ride in the '90's. Wouldn't even consider it a feature these days
My worst ever crash was in the local woods on a section of trail I'd ridden a dozen times, with no dangerous features, just a tiny slippy rock that I placed my front wheel on chasing a Kom and hit the deck with concussion and a broken jaw.
Point being, when you're learning you tend to tackle things with caution. Risks come into play when you have some confidence in what you're doing.
Adults on ebikes are still capable of evaluating risk even if they are going somewhere they wouldn't normally go. Manners are a different matter
Judging whether someone should be somewhere or not because they have never done it before and a motor is enabling them is inverse snobbery (is that the right term?) imo
All this shouldn't be there attitude stinks.
When I started MTBing back in the mid 80's there were a group of us that had all grown up racing MX/Enduros.
One of our group had the same shit attitude to anyone we met on a bike if they'd not come from the same racing backgroud as the rest of us. They shouldn't be here/they don't know how to ride/ they've just tried to buy their way in with an expensive bike that kind of stuff.
It was quite unpleasant to watch the way he spoke to some people and he soon found he had less and less people to ride with as we all slowly got fed up of the shit attitude and stopped riding with him.
Some of us have been into this shit from the start and are still welcoming to everyone no matter what bike they happen to be on, so don't come the not experienced enough or worked your way up attitude. It stinks.
This thread has really drawn out the crazy, angry people.
"They wouldn't be there if it wasn't for ebikes" !!! Just be glad they are on ebikes and not SurRons (sp) then.
And, hey, who knows... One day these riders who "shouldn't be there" might even "progress" to a "proper" bike!!!
Madness.
Jeepers 10 pages!
Was just thinking that myself.
It could have been summed up rather quickly
Q. Ebikes etc etc,hateful people etc etc
A. Assholes.
End of thread.
Well, I’ve learned from this thread that your skills as a rider are purely down to how hard you’ve been pedalling for how long.
Somebody had better warn all those teenage shredders on DH bikes sending 50ft gaps.
I've met the very occasional dickish rider over the years, some on normal mtb, some on emtb so I don't mind what people ride.
The only thing what would upset me was if normal mtb's died a death entirely so only emtb was left but I hope and think that will never happen.
/blockquote>
^^And that ladies and gentleman, is the sort fat chav that the ebikes have brought to the "sport" ...FFS.
There's a lot of Real Riders™ breaking rule one on this thread and coming across as exactly the sort of people they claim ride eebs.
Humour this dumbass please, what does the extra "e" stand for on eemtb streams for?
Yeah, I have been under a rock.😁
Enjoyable/Exciting/Excruciating Electric Bicycle. Or nothing at all. Take your pick.
Cougar
Full Member
Yeah, but without the battery assist it’d only have been three
But you got the same workout 😉
If you get the same workout, why do all the ebikers wear trousers and jackets when I'm on my peasant bike sweating my knackers off in a pair of shorts and a t shirt?
Maybe I'm the one that's not very fit 🤔
If you get the same workout, why do all the ebikers wear trousers and jackets when I’m on my peasant bike sweating my knackers off in a pair of shorts and a t shirt?
Maybe I’m the one that’s not very fit
You can get whatever workout you want on a 50lb bike with assistance adjustable from 0-100% of whatever power is on offer. I'll generally make sure I push myself a bit without destroying myself. Not as much as standard bike, but I could if I wanted
Taken with a pinch of salt as watch based, but my heart rate last Saturday
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doomanic
Full Member
Enjoyable/Exciting/Excruciating Electric Bicycle. Or nothing at all. Take your pick.
Lol, I see. I really thought the extra "e" was for some technical reason I didn't know about.
Im not too sure about this fitness argument 😕
I mean you want to get fit on a bike, you either buy an exercise cycle, set it up in the spare room and pedal away across the seasons. Or buy a road bike, join a club and go riding and training in a group.
MTB is more about learning a skill than gaining fitness, though the fitness part happens its not the reason you are doing it. Post ride Beers, too many cakes and perhaps ciggies or a spliff or two.
Its a social thing more than anything else.
Ebikes are pretty much the same thing if you look at it logically. Getting out in the fresh air, riding to enjoy the outdoors and learning how not to fall off, being with others of similar interests.
Fitness ? naw, thats for them sad old roadies*.
No offence to roadies, old or otherwise 😆
Tosh @Dyna-ti. MTB is my primary fitness source. Add in kayaking and the odd hike in the hills.
From boredom alone I would never get on a turbo (I've a bike, why not use it?) and I hate "sharing" the road with two tonne metal deathtraps.
And can this crap just die please?
You can get whatever workout you want
Yes, you can. But the vast majority of people don't want.
That's why ebikes are being bought in droves by people who would never otherwise ride.
As for "want" - if your engine is broken and you slog up a hill with no assistance and no choice - then that's potentially a workout you might not want - but you'd still have to in pursuit of something else. And that's the primary difference between the two and a source of much consternation. Lots of people on this thread have complained about ebikers evangelising to them why they should buy an ebike, even in the face of them telling them that they don't want one. Part of that is down to the fact that ebikes steal the "have to". Because of this they fundamentally change the experience - and whilst ebikers feel this is clearly for the better, many other people think that's not the case.
I really think you need to spend some quality time on a good ebike, absolute game changer. You can get the same workout, but cover at least twice the distance. Honestly, I think everyone will be on them in a few years.
Honestly, I think everyone will be on them in a few years.
Everyone is going to have to get a lot richer.
Everyone is going to have to get a lot richer.
That's the kicker for me... The most i've ever paid was £3000 for a bike and that was a CRAZY figure in my book.... TO buy soemthing in Eeb and of the spec/type i want i'm guessing i'm in the £7000 bracket.
But as much as the money bothers me, the warranty/motor/battery/computer stuff worries me more. If my Slayer/GT/141 goes wrong, it's invariably something i can fix, at home with some tools and a bit of time.... but if it's an Eeb, i could be without it for weeks, months even and even then, only if under warranty and covered... So... i'm struggling with the whole idea.
