This is a seriously weird and sad thread. How can you hate an e-bike? That’s all I have really.
Yours,
A lifelong mountain biker (e-bike,DH,XC)
This is a seriously weird and sad thread. How can you hate an e-bike?
Just another divide in an already divided enough world. Some people have to have things/people to hate and the range of acceptable (and sometimes legal) things to hate gets smaller as many people become more enlightened to racism, sexism and so on. A lot of media and political groups rely on this hatred.
You can hate all you want about someone who chooses to use an electrically assisted bicycle with no repercussions so go nuts.
What I can’t get my head around from this thread, regardless of whether you love, hate, or are indifferent about ebikes, is that somehow an overweight guy riding an ebike can be construed as being no better than said overweight guy sitting on the sofa.
Perhaps because it’s emblematic of the underlying problem. The reason they were overweight, sitting on the sofa is because losing weight required effort and discomfort and most importantly discipline. Being able to buy your way out of the first two, doesn’t necessarily give you the third. It’s a borrowed ladder, not a change in foundational thinking.
I’m not a huge fan of e-bikes. I’ve been tyre buzzed at Afan and been hounded around the climbing bits of Ashton Court and I’m not slow, and never had this from other riders/bikes. It’s not regular, but nor is it isolated.
I also see a lot of kids/teens already starting to abuse their use. Riding up the escalator at the local Tesco, blasting between stationary traffic at lights and straight through at near to 50mph. Hammering along a cycle path at almost 35mph, not pedalling. None of these things could occur without motor assistance.
Less of a problem on natural stuff.
blasting between stationary traffic at lights and straight through at near to 50mph.
Not an eMTB. Or a massive exaggeration.
Hammering along a cycle path at almost 35mph, not pedalling.
Also not an eMTB, more likely a home conversion. Or another massive exaggeration.
I was doing 38kph on the cycle path and he came past me like I was standing still, it was a bike, with bars and pedals. After that, I can’t say.
At the crossing point, again, it looked like a DH bike. Dual crown forks, the guy was pedalling, MTB tyres, he was then overtaking cars on a 40mph piece of road after the lights.
NOT an exaggeration.
All on bikes which aren’t technically motorbikes and are built with bicycle bits, powered by a motor and a battery with the former being used on a cycle path. How are they not e-bikes?
And the trail buzzing? What’s your dismissal for that, or have you conveniently blanked that aspect?
Chipped, which a lot of e-bikes are being, a 500w motor is more than sufficient to achieve 35mph. 240W can propel me on the flat at 25mph.
I appreciate that all of these are likely aberrations and that I likely don’t see e-bikes being used normally as they just blend in, but I also don’t see and experience normal bikes being used aberrantly, I’m sure it’s happening, but I don’t see it, so is it more common or just more obvious with an ebike?
Let’s face it, it’s far easier to abuse others with an ebike than it is with a normal bike especially on mixed trails and paths.
Sounds like a sauron from those numbers, even if embellished by 50% a 500w motor isnt going to propel you along at 30mph.
They are growing in popularity with the local neds down here. Basically doing all of the above, plus one footed wheelies and ragging around on shared use footpaths.
There's an old railway line which loads of dog walks and little kids use. The speed which these throbbers go along is nuts, 25 mph plus.
Unfortunately the general population cannot differentiate between a legal ebike and a chipped or sauron style one. So the local bookface page has the usual 'ban em all' rantets. Which is a shame as they help the aged get out and about and reduce car usage as they pop down the shop on their ebike instead of the car.
Just for avoidance of doubt, Surons, Bultaco Brincos and other electric motorcycles are not eMTBs.
Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles, like the Levo, Rail, Wild, etc are eMTBs.
If you are talking about the former then I think you’ll find that most people who ride the latter don’t like them either.
And the trail buzzing? What’s your dismissal for that, or have you conveniently blanked that aspect?
No dismissal whatsoever, they’re dicks, but it’s not restricted to eBikes by any stretch of the imagination.
Unfortunately the general population cannot differentiate between a legal ebike and a chipped or sauron style one.
Not just the general population it would seem.
What IS being dismissed @doomanic is that there are a lot more of these dicks because of the electric motor.
Without the e, said dicks would be on their <insert console* of choice> or harassing shoppers in the local smellmarsh shopping centre.
*not PC's of course. They're for the master race 😉
I don't hate ebikes. However, I am concerned about the long term effect they are going to have on mountain biking in general for reasons I explained on the last page.
I think ebikes could mean a step change in the sport the type we've never seen before.
All other changes have been incremental. Geometry, brakes, suspension, etc. I guess dropper posts represented a step change in the sport but it's nothing like the size of the change we see with ebikes.
Mountain biking can be as social or as anti-social as you like, If you are someone who likes to ride alone then this obviously won't affect you. You can ride ebikes or not ride ebikes and it won't make any difference.
However, I think most of us ride with other people to a greater or lesser extent. I've been on group rides where the bikes have ranged from XC bikes to 180mm freeride bikes (remember when that was a thing?) and everything in between. You could more or less make it work because the differences in the bikes were manageable.
Now, with ebikes, is there any incentive for ebikers to go along to the local mtb club regularly if they are just going to have to leave their motors on the lowest setting for the entire ride?
I think ebikes are great for people who for health reasons struggle with group rides. To me this is the ideal use case.
However, I worry that with the number of perfectly fit people using ebikes we are going to end up with two tiers of mountain biking who don't really interact with each other*.
If we have two tiers of mountain bikes then one day Specialized and Giant might decide that it's just not worth focusing on the 1st tier any more.
If that happens mountain biking becomes jet skiing. An anti-social exclusive past time rather than the sport we know today.
*Obviously some people are going to straddle both camps but I think the number of people running around with a high-end bike and a high-end ebike is going to be very small-
If we have two tiers of mountain bikes then one day Specialized and Giant might decide that it’s just not worth focusing on the 1st tier any more.
Hate to say it but take a look at the sales and growth projections for the industry, we're along that road already. Few companies are prioritising non-electric bikes outside of the drop-bar market. That doesn't mean they're not making non-electrics though.
Is that bad? Depends how you feel about being an outlier Vs a mainstreamer. For my own riding time I'm not interested in mainstream big brand road gravel or MTB bikes, haven't bought one in a long time. It's a broad church as they say, I find something that's right for me elsewhere because I'm not alone in my tastes. But I don't think non-e MTBs are about to become some kind of niche.
My 2p - MTB FS for laps of built trails will be mostly electric in future. But XC (aka Trail to those with issues with XC being uncool) will come back as road and gravel riders continue to escape busy roads or find limitations of drop bars off-road. The crossover between skilled XC riders and fit enduro/EWS riders alongside the importance of racing (Olympic and UCI) in marketing, and more technical XC courses, will lead to even better trail bikes for those who like to pedal. The bike as a beautiful, simple human-powered invention in all its forms is just not going away any time soon.
But you seem to want to constantly repeat your strong dislike for ebikes, but don’t want to hear from anyone ‘evangelising’ (your word) about them
Works both ways, the e-bike evangelists constantly go on about their love for them. They don’t back down or accept alternative arguments either, anybody can stop arguingat any time. And not liking e-mtb's and having doubts about whether they are a "good" thing isn't the same as hating them and the people who ride them.
Why do the ebike haters worry so much? It’s been a common theme throughout these pages, “I’m just worried that…”
Ebikes appear to allow some people to go further and do more damage to trails. Some trail damage was previously restricted by the simple fact that riding through thick mud was hard work and no fun. This meant sections of trail got less use and a chance to recover. Using an ebike makes it far more tolerable so people will just ride and churn up muddy tracks even more.
At best this might lead to ebikes being banned for off road use, at worst it might reduce all our access.
And you can run the heaviest, knobbliest, draggy tyre manufacturerd, because the motor will not mind the hard work.
So the trails get chewed up alot quicker, you can brake later and harder leading to braking bumps.
Acceleration out the corner on turbo, because you can roosts the mud way more than a manual bike.
Then because your an impatient knobber you cant wait 30 seconds for the fat guy on a manual so smash past as soon as possible, showin him your machismo and huge wanger, thus widening the carefully hand built manicured bit of single track into a motor way
Won't e-mtbs have to get a fair bit cheaper before they take over the world as we know it?
And more reliable?
Won’t e-mtbs have to get a fair bit cheaper before they take over the world as we know it?
And more reliable?
This is what has got me worried. If Spesh and Giant decide they are going to focus primarily on ebikes from now on (and as jameso says above, it looks like this is starting to happen) then others are going to follow suit. I think Brant said the other day that any bike manufacturer not investing heavily in an ebike design right now would be crazy. New ebike specific standards are going to become the norm shortly after.
Tyres are going to get bigger, stickier, and draggier. Forks are going to be beefed up and get heavier. All other components will also get chubbier because of the extra wear on components. Drivetrain efficiency will be sacrificed in the name of longevity because who cares about 10 watts.
No doubt you will still be able to buy normal bikes and parts but the standards will be different. Normal bike and parts for those bikes will be like 26" wheels and 1 1/8" steerer tubes now. Sure, you can still buy them but the quality just isn't the same as the 'proper' bikes with the 'proper' standards.
Normal bikes will become like steel bikes today. Sure, they are still around (you can even find steel full-sussers) but you will have to be prepared to pay a premium for the privilege.
With all the advertising and racing coverage focusing on ebikes people who are thinking about getting into mountain biking may not even be aware that there are non-motorised options and either don't get into the sport because they can't afford it or just get an ebike and never even try a normal mountain bike. That's when mountain bikes become the equivalent of jet skiing. A slightly anti-social toy for well-off people to play with on the weekends.
I hope I'm completely wrong about this but we saw what happened when Giant and Spesh decided 26 was dead. The entire industry followed. It had no choice.
Works both ways, the e-bike evangelists constantly go on about their love for them.
Where are these eBike evangelists? I honestly don’t think I’ve ever met one on the trails.
I’ve met dicks and e-dicks on the trails but I just ignore them.
Today, I rode my eBike in the woods in a group of 4. We met and talked to other people who were also riding their bikes in the woods. The only time eBikes came up was when I offered one of them a go and he declined in case he liked it too much. He actually referred to his HCHT as an analog bike.
I know, cool story bro, right.
thus widening the carefully hand built manicured bit of single track into a motor way/
😆 😆 talk about waxing lyrical. ALL BIKES churn up the ground, and those big knobbly tyres are to blame.2.4,2.6. BITD tyres were 1.8-2.1 so by the standard you're proposing, you'd better get off those big tyres and fit thinner and less damaging ones.
I think the point was that before there was a balance. To carry a lot of weight, you either needed to be very fit, go a bit slower, not go so far or, you had to compromise a little on spec to have an all day bike. Now, that's not the case, you can fit the biggest tyres, so you can hit the trails as hard as you possibly can, brake as late as you can and can use the motors torque to rip out of them just as fast you (it) can. There's no penalty for not carrying speed, there's no penalty for all the gear no idea, there's just take...no give.
Maybe it's just me, but there's something really satisfying about clearing a climb that requires technique and strength and there's something great about getting the lines just right so you carry as much energy through the trail as you can. A good loop of my local trails can be exhilarating or painful. The conditions are part of this, but so's my attention and fitness.
Now I'm not saying that there shouldn't be ebikes, far from it. I genuinely believe that they're a beneficial part of the community, but with so many on here evangelising the benefits of eco mode when on mixed rides....how much do you really need 500W+? If it was less, and you had to work a little harder or spec a little lighter, would that be so bad?
If it was capped at 250W would they be so popular? Or is it just the thrill of power? The ease of speed?
Is there perhaps a parallel in electric cars (or even recent hot hatches)? I've seen so much bad driving in recent EVs - odd overtaking, ridiculous exits from junctions, obscene speed at inappropriate times. Is it just that they have so much available power that people feel compelled to use it? Are eMTBs similar?
Damn there must be something wrong with my kenevo. It only does about 18mph. Where do I get one of these chips to make it do 50mph?
Oh ffs now EVs are in the crosshairs🫣
Daffy
Full Member
I think the point was that before there was a balance. To carry a lot of weight, you either needed to be very fit, go a bit slower, not go so far or, you had to compromise a little on spec to have an all day bike. Now, that’s not the case, you can fit the biggest tyres, so you can hit the trails as hard as you possibly can, brake as late as you can and can use the motors torque to rip out of them just as fast you (it) can. There’s no penalty for not carrying speed, there’s no penalty for all the gear no idea, there’s just take…no give.
That really makes me want an ebike 😄
Busy day at Wharny today, E-Bikes were definitely outnumbered. Don't get the hysteria tbh.
Where are these eBike evangelists? I honestly don’t think I’ve ever met one on the trails.
They're out with the preachy vegans.
Probably the same people.
Probably equally fictional outside of "someone I met once."
Where are these eBike evangelists? I honestly don’t think I’ve ever met one on the trails.
You honestly haven't read the last 14 pages ?
I see you don't really embrace modern technology. Or quote buttons, oldenough.....
@oldenough of course I have but have seen nothing other than whiney unverifiable anecdotes.
Incidentally, the original reason for this thread was anti-eBike sentiment, not complaints about imaginary eBike evangelists.
Where are these eBike evangelists? I honestly don’t think I’ve ever met one on the trails.
You honestly haven’t read the last 14 pages ?
Go back and count the number of posts evangelising unsolicited versus the number complaining.
It's hilarious really, you should look at yourselves. People on foot have been whining about the alleged destruction caused by people on bicycles since the dawn of time and most everyone on here has likely railed against that. "Cheeky" trails, innit. Now suddenly fat tyres and late braking is seemingly a huge problem, because someone else is doing it.
Have you ridden on natural trails that’re frequented by ebike groups @Cougar?
In their own way, they’re as damaging as horses, especially in the autumn/winter. It’s not the tyres on their own, it’s the torque and the way and where the power is capable of being deployed.
Think about it - a climb on loose ground, on a pedal powered bike, you spin, you lose momentum, you stop. An ebike you can keep going, but it rips the trail to shreds, especially on off camber corners. The bike slews to the edge of the camber and washes the edge away. Soon enough, the trail isn’t usable for a normal bike.
There’s a group of 3-4 e-bikes near me and on the trails we share, I can now only ride the rocky ones in winter, the muddy ones are almost impassable.
This is a very anecdotal example, but it’s there and true nonetheless. Between them and the bloody hunt people at this time of year, it’s getting harder to ride locally on the MTB.
Trails get eroded and evolve through use. By walkers, horses, cyclists.
It seems that non-e riders have deemed that their level of erosion is the acceptable level not to be exceeded
Think about it – a climb on loose ground, on a pedal powered bike, you spin, you lose momentum, you stop. An ebike you can keep going
That's awesome, I need me one of those eBikes with a gyroscope, throttle and traction control.
Trails get eroded and evolve through use. By walkers, horses, cyclists.
It seems that non-e riders have deemed that their level of erosion is the acceptable level not to be exceeded
I think we all agree that there should be some limit on how people are allowed to access trails. I don't see anyone saying they are cool with moto-X bikes tearing up and down the trails we use for mountain biking.
Some say bikes in general shouldn't be allowed on trails but I imagine most on here wouldn't agree with that for fairly obvious reasons (although even then I'm sure there is disagreement over which trails should be ridden in certain conditions).
So obviously there is a line. The question is where should that line be.
I don't know, myself. Ebikes are going to tear up the trails more than bikes, if for no other reason than you can go further on an ebike.
Personally I can't really say whether ebikes are significantly worse for trails because I don't have the data. It doesn't mean I'm going to dismiss the risks as baseless.
That’s awesome, I need me one of those eBikes with a gyroscope, throttle and traction control.
As ever doomanic - a less than witty retort. If you've got the bike on boost/turbo or whatever it's called, the motor is providing how much assist to your pedal strokes? How much easier is it to clear sections that you couldn't clear (under your own power) before? How much more likely is it that, when the trails are loose, that it's the bike and the motor that gets you through? And as such, how is it doing that? Is it because the bike(tyres)/motor are providing more grip/power? Think about it before coming back with a dismissive answer that suits your narrative.
Back on topic - ebikes and mixed rides. Again, I think it's a combination of things:
1. Change - people don't like it.
2. Attitude - some people think you should earn what you take and they see ebikes as a means to circumvent that.
3. Dynamic - It can shift the group dynamic of riding quite substantially. ebikes can give more than a leg up and when you're still trying hard and suddenly you've gone from mid-pack to bottom, that's tough. So what do you do - most folks I know in a similar situation have gone and bought an ebike to level the field. It's like school run mums and 4x4s.
4. (ish) - I generally ride alone and am in an area with few MTBs and few trails and the trails there are, are quite short and steep. I've definitely noticed more damage to the softer sections since the local group have switched to ebikes in the last 2 years. But, there's probably also an aspect of observer bias in this.
I don't want or need an ebike - yet. But I'm sure there will come a point when my knees/fitness start to go and I would welcome it. But I don't need one, nor do I want one. Others don't need one, but want one or visa versa. Can we compare ebikes to 4x4s? for 90%+ of people, there is no need, just want and can. Is the same true for eMTBs? Is that enough? We'd often lambaste someone for the 4x4 choice based on want - especially if it's something like an AMG63- G-Wwagon. Is there something comparable for eMTBs? Probably not, but maybe there is - I genuinely don't know.
For the record - I don't hate eMTBs, but I don't understand why all of a sudden everyone has to have one and am trying to understand the dynamics at play. I can certainly understand the need for some to have them/want them, but the explosion in sales - is that driven by MTBing now being significantly about thrills, thus an ebike allows more? Is it like (and I apologise for this analogy) like an infection, where once introduced to the group, that the disparity in ability means that you adapt (buy in) or leave? Is it just that they're the newest thing and where people see the most gains or value for money at the now £3k-£12k buy in point for full suspension? Has everyone secretly always wanted to ride a DH bike everywhere but the effort required was just too much? Genuinely curious. I'm a scientist and need to know! 🙂
@daffy raises some good points. In my opinion, other than where disability or illness is involved, it’s a purely selfish decision. The analogy to bigger cars is valid. Nobody fit and healthy needs an eBike. It’s a choice based purely on convenience or want. No getting away from the fact you’re actively choosing something that is a step in the wrong direction from an environmental perspective. Not for me but happy for others to get them. Just admit that at heart you’re a lazy bastard 😉
is that driven by MTBing now being significantly about thrills
What did they used to be about?
What did they used to be about?
For quite a lot of people they used to be about exploring the country side, and being able to travel further than on foot. What gravel biking appears to be now.
On any given MTB You don’t need suspension, disk brakes, gears, dropper posts , tough tyres. You don’t even need a MTB.
All those are incremental changes that were introduced over years and decades. Except dropper posts, but the changes to geometry that allowed designs to really benefit from dropper posts still took years to come about.
Ebikes represent a step change the likes of which we have never seen before. It could fundamentally change the sport and, imo, not in a good way for the reasons I've laid out above.
is that driven by MTBing now being significantly about thrills, thus an ebike allows more?
I would say that’s a valid hypothesis. Certainly MTB (with or without the e) has always been about thrills for me, right back to the early 90’s up Cleeve Hill looking for the scariest chutes to chuck a succession of first rigids, then HTs and eventually full sussers down. Now, in my mid 50’s with arthritis and sciatica the SL eBike allows me to continue doing that.
Has everyone secretly always wanted to ride a DH bike everywhere but the effort required was just too much?
Yep, pretty much.
You won’t find me or any of the people I regularly ride with trashing technical climbs with our eBikes, we’re all about the descents and the eBikes allow is maximise our messing about in the woods.
I don’t understand why all of a sudden everyone has to have one
Yet more hyperbole to fit your narrative. Who’s saying everyone has to have one? Not any of the eBike owners on this thread, that’s for sure. Except possibly Daveyboy, but well, you know…
Yet more hyperbole to fit your narrative. Who’s saying everyone has to have one?
This might be the crux of the issue. Looking back to the OP (remember him) he said the group consisted of 7 riders, 2 of whom had ebikes.
That seems fine on the face of it. The two ebike riders turn down the boost and everyone goes for a ride.
I guess the worry is, what happens to the group if three more people get ebikes and now the group is five ebikes and 2 regular riders.
I can see the regular riders feeling like they are holding the entire group back all the time through no fault of their own. They then have three options: Keep holding everyone back. Buy an ebike. Stop riding with the group.
I see that as being a reasonable fear for anyone who is a member of a mixed group and doesn't want to buy an ebike. There is a risk that they are going to end up excluded from the groups that they are currently members of.
In my opinion, other than where disability or illness is involved, it’s a purely selfish decision. The analogy to bigger cars is valid. Nobody fit and healthy needs an eBike. It’s a choice based purely on convenience or want. No getting away from the fact you’re actively choosing something that is a step in the wrong direction from an environmental perspective. Not for me but happy for others to get them. Just admit that at heart you’re a lazy bastard
I’m fit and healthy, and yes, I wanted an ebike.
For the main type of riding I do (winch & plummet) it’s perfect. So my example of my day at FOD on Monday, there’s no way I could have got anything like the number of runs in on my Capra without getting the uplift.
I also used to drive 20 miles each way to do a weekly ride with mates at Delamere. Now with the ebike I ride around 8 miles each way to ride with a different group (all non-e-bikes) and do a 10 mile ride with them. So in my case it has indisputably taken a diesel van off the road for at least 40miles/week.
