@poly that’s all sensible – unfortunately there are always folk who won’t pay at all if there is a no cost option to them.
If only there was some official body that could make traffic regulation orders preventing overnight parking outside authorised locations!
You can’t just chuck down a bit of gravel in a likely looking spot with the nod if the laird and have all the infrastructure at hand to connect up to. If only…
Seems to be exactly what Tiree did 20 yrs ago... but I know of one location on the mainland which has no facilities and is just a gravel area because the landowner decided it was better to keep them where he wanted that random - I think a neighbour did complain and the council made him get a campsite license but it was fairly painless.
If only there was some official body that could make traffic regulation orders preventing overnight parking outside authorised locations!
I agree with your sentiment, I really do.
some folk won’t even pay a minimal charge even if it does bring with it some benefits (like litter bins etc).
I’d love for there to be more places like this, they do seem to be slowly increasing. Hopefully the FC overnight trial went well and they do it again this year.
Does anyone know how it actually went?
Had the first scratter car campers of the season at the weekend in Clackmannashire. There are some nice meadows along the River Devon that are quite close to laybys. I wish they'd **** off to Stirling, Perthshire or the Highlands. We only have 60 square miles of local authority to explore, can't afford to lose 1% of that to these numpties!
If this thread is now going to become the 'I saw some people camping thread' then I fear we are in for a long summer of discontent.
It's going to happen. Other than avoiding it as best we can and reporting any poor behaviour we see there isn't a whole lot that individuals can do.
Poly, 20 years ago things were very different...
A fair point @spin.
It was just interesting to note the them all arriving back again.
The only answer has to be banning roadside camping completely. I hear the cries of " we clean up after ourselves / do not make a mess" but the pressure of numbers clearly makes roadside camping in scotland no longer sustainable.
brads
Full Member
Well if its bedlam then great. None of us has greater rights than others so I hope as many as possible get out and enjoy. If squeezing up if the worst hardship then good.
It's the littering and shitting in verges type of bedlam that I don't really welcome. Other than that crack on, everyone does indeed have the same rights, just remember rule #1 😎
The only answer has to be banning roadside camping completely.
Can't see that happening.
Another summer like last one up north and I think the pressure will be huge to do so
I think the pressure will be huge to do so
From some quarters yes, from other quarters there will be pressure against it as it is contrary to our existing access laws. Plus there's the policing of it and the fact that having spent months cooped up in cities people are going to quite rightly want get out into the countryside. And lets not forget that the majority are probably responsible. And do we just make it for one year or should this be a permanent change to our access laws?
So I can't see a blanket ban happening and I don't think it should happen. Sensible, proportionate local policing is the only thing that can be done.
I think the last straw around Fort William last year was when poorly parked cars blocked access to the cemetery in Glen Nevis. That certainly resulted in a large and probably expensive police operation for the next couple of weeks. Many people are worried that this summer could be the same or worse. Hopefully more tourist businesses and accommodation will be able to open fully to spread the number of visitors over a wider area and make the benefits of visitors more apparent.
Meantime I'll also be sticking to the travel within local authority guidelines though I might go beyond the first suitable area for exercise
Just schedule an Old Firm match every weekend. I had my local woods pretty much to myself yesterday
spin - as far as I remember roadside camping is not covered under the LRA / access laws.
Even clean campers roadside camping there are just too many people trying to do it - its unsustainable
Banning roadside camping isn't the way forward - when did it actually stop anything happening? We need to understand that this year, just like last is an exceptional year - but wont last. People can't travel abroad for holidays, many people have been financially badly hit by Covid so expensive UK hotel based holidays will not be possible, many campsites will likely already be fully booked therefore for many a long weekend "wild" camping locally will be their only holiday of the year.
Locally, to me, last year there was a big uproar with folk camping and leaving a mess all around Harlaw reservoir in the Pentlands. The place was a total bombsite. That camping will almost certainly be occurring, en mass this summer too.
Instead of vilifying them, encourage and facilitate good behaviour - stick a portaloo up and a communal bin every few hundred meters around the reservoir and empty them once a week. Employ a warden to do the rounds of an evening to keep things under control and fund it by charging for parking.
It's a very similar solution for Campervans - have existing public loos open near 24 hours with the nearest carpark having some designated campervan spaces just as they do in the top carpard @ Cairngorm and Ellenabeich. Perhaps even limited to max 1 or 2 night stays. We as a society need to encourage and provide the facilities to promote good behaviour instead of only slating the bad.
I dare say by next summer things will be closer to normal and there will be less pressure on our local green spaces.
as far as I remember roadside camping is not covered under the LRA / access laws.
I don't think the SOAC distinguishes between roadside and remote, I think the only recommendations are not close to habitation or in enclosed fields.
Poly, 20 years ago things were very different…
Were they? If anything the need was less.
The only answer has to be banning roadside camping completely. I hear the cries of ” we clean up after ourselves / do not make a mess” but the pressure of numbers clearly makes roadside camping in scotland no longer sustainable.
It does - the problem is - what constitutes roadside?
Lack of clarity on this, I think is one of the failings of the SOAC. To me its obvious that the sort of lightweight camping the LR(S)A permits is the sort where you carry all your kit on your person/bike/horse not one where you park and carry stuff 50m from the road to a nice spot in multiple trips. It would be ironic (and frankly unfair and unreasonable) if say camping within 100m of any public road was outlawed, as that will cause many genuine backpackers/bike packers issues. The solution is surely simpler - ban overnight parking except in designated areas.
If Covid has taught us anything though - its that people will interpret any rule to the maximum of their own benefit - and others will scorn at their selfishness, when they are technically compliant!
That certainly resulted in a large and probably expensive police operation for the next couple of weeks.
That's the odd thing - the police, understandably, don't really want to get involved in this stuff. It's not a great use of their resources. For some reason, councils seem reluctant to use their delegated powers around parking enforcement (same issue in small towns since Police Scotland abolished traffic wardens), yet it seems it should be quite feasible to make it at least cost-neutral - if they aren't issuing at least 1 ticket an hour they aren't in a problem area!
In many places, road traffic law applies. You shouldn't be pulling off the road onto private land without the landowners permission. That would include FLS car parks if there's no permission for overnight parking but also many places like Glen Etive. Blocking access, passing places, etc is also road traffic law.
As a society we've made an extraordinary response to the epidemic. Temporary provision of additional camping areas should be feasible without all the normal planning regs being necessary.
Sensible, proportionate local policing is the only thing that can be done.
This being a challenge. Underfunded, under-resourced, often pfficers their own, rural policing is a real challenge.
As a society we’ve made an extraordinary response to the epidemic. Temporary provision of additional camping areas should be feasible without all the normal planning regs being necessary.
This I agree with. We cannot ban our way out of this - but we can work to make things better and work with people.
We cannot ban our way out of this
Agree 100% Cannot and should not.
You could also get a lot of car campers on drink driving laws I'd imagine. Lying 10m from you car, with your keys in pocket pished out your face.
Its needs to be carrot and stick so as well as stopping roadside camping "aires" or some equivalent needs to be provided.
i would also put a levy on the camper hire companies to pay for this
Don't think a blanket ban works, unfortunately I don't think there are sufficient public toilets, in remote and rural areas for that to work. Providing portaloos is a good idea but would require someone to find the money to provide and service them. I feel an email to my councillors coming on.
Longer term a tourist tax could be used to provide just this sort of facility.
You could also get a lot of car campers on drink driving laws I’d imagine. Lying 10m from you car, with your keys in pocket pished out your face.
But why would you? There's nothing to be gained in penalising legitimate behaviour. Without a proven intent to drive I doubt any charge would stick anyway. If you can point me to just one instance of someone in a campervan/motorhome being sentenced for being over the limit whilst sitting in the back I'll reconsider.
From some quarters yes, from other quarters there will be pressure against it as it is contrary to our existing access laws. Plus there’s the policing of it and the fact that having spent months cooped up in cities people are going to quite rightly want get out into the countryside. And lets not forget that the majority are probably responsible. And do we just make it for one year or should this be a permanent change to our access laws?
So I can’t see a blanket ban happening and I don’t think it should happen. Sensible, proportionate local policing is the only thing that can be done.
The Land Reform Act grants access to non-motorised transport not to car camping. Camper vans are definitely NOT conferred any rights under the LR(S)A. There's obviously an interesting debate how far you have to walk from your car before the LR(S)A comes into play. Clearly if you have parked responsibly your right to walk starts the moment you leave the car. I'm not convinced that the intention was ever to let people walk 20 yds, pitch a tent and then walk 20 yds back to their car in the morning. But as I said a few posts ago - there is a legitimate right to camp near a road for a person who is walking/cycling and camping along the way.
You could also get a lot of car campers on drink driving laws I’d imagine. Lying 10m from you car, with your keys in pocket pished out your face.
No intention to drive is a legitimate defence (to drunk in Charge - obviously you cant be prosecuted for drunk driving unless you actually were behind the wheel), and clearly having set up a tent and looking like you are staying the night is going to undermine any claim to the contrary. Charging someone with Drink Driving is also a huge pain in the neck - you have to arrest them, take them to a main police station with the fancy breathyliser, book them into custody, etc - that's probably 2+ hours out of the day for a cop in a city, its potentially the rest of the shift in rural areas! And now you've removed one camper, from the countryside (but not actually because the vehicle will still be there, along with anyone else who was with them, and they aren't going to pack up the tent etc if they are on their own), and a cop from all the other things they could be doing.
Yep, a "minimum distance from road" rule would impact folk walking and riding using roads just as much as it would motorised users.
The issue here is not the responsible majority.
It is the dirty campers.
It is lack of facilities and provision for the numbers now expected.
It is working with both local communities and businesses to make something happen, so that our responsible visitors feel welcome and our irresponsible ones feel the weight of the law...
This influx of visitors is going to happen, we need to deal with it and resource it well enough.
My biggest concern is the rangers, police and local communities who might have to deal with unpleasant sides of dirty campers this summer.
Its not just the dirty campers Matt - its the sheer volume of camper vans. Just too many who want to roadside camp.
Ask the residents of Durness and applecross
I know locally ideas have been mooted about chemical toilet disposal points and reopening some closed public toilets which is great and will definitely help but that's not going to change the attitude to dropping litter everywhere or the way folks think it's ok to set fires and cut wood wherever they please.
It's obvious that education is what's needed but that's not going to happen overnight and I'm really not sure what can be done in the short term.
A few very visual campaigns may help but I've a feeling that the typical central belt trolley licker wouldn't read it anyway 😉
The Land Reform Act grants access to non-motorised transport not to car camping.
I've just been looking at the section on camping in the SOAC. I'd say it very definintely allows for responsible roadside camping.
@spin - really my bold:
Access rights extend to wild camping. This type of camping is lightweight, done in small numbers and only for two or three nights in any one place. You can camp in this way wherever access rights apply, but help to avoid causing problems for local people and land managers by not camping in enclosed fields of crops or farm animals and by keeping well away from buildings, roads or historic structures. Take extra care to avoid disturbing deer stalking or grouse shooting.
The Access Code notes that access rights do not apply to motor vehicles (see guidance on parking). The Code also highlights the risk of impacts due to high levels of use in particular areas:
The problem is that where someone is not behaving responsibly (using whoever's criteria that is based on) there are very few easy ways to deal with it. The E of Loch Lomond restrictions came about despite most of the cited behaviour already being illegal. The code also emphasises that even if your behaviour in isolation is responsible the cumulative effect of many people's behaviour may not be. As I said, the problem is - "responsible" is too vague.
The problem is that where someone is not behaving responsibly (using whoever’s criteria that is based on) there are very few easy ways to deal with it.
This.
Shore of Loch Tay. No phone or police radio reception.
A dozen drunk campers, line of tents, half a dozen cars and vans (one left deliberately blocking the road with the keys hidden).
This now requires a dozen police (that is a full day time shift I believe for Stirling area, so every officer needs to attend), matching number of vans for arrests and transport them to the police station 35 miles away in Stirling. Then you have to catalogue everything in the tents, just in case the claim that 'I left my new iPhone in there...' is made by every single person. Then you have to removed the tents and recover the vehicles (so 6 break low loaders). Then the landowner and rangers have to clean up the crap left behind, and this needs transporting 20 miles to Callander tip as the council removed the skips and recycling that used to be in Killin, and anyway the waste is 'commercial' as it is not attached to a house paying Council Tax.
So - 12-18 police officers, 2+ LLTNP rangers, 6+ recovery vehicles, landowner and assistant - all for likely a full day of work.
How do I know? Been there and seen it when it really kicks off.
its the sheer volume of camper vans
I do think we may see this in 2021. Not just campers, just everyone...
I have joked about filming from the A9 bridge next to our house the day we are unlocked - it will be like wacky races with a line of vans, caravans and loaded cars.
last summer I came across a caravan fully setup in a passing place with awning out, he was popular!
As I said, the problem is – “responsible” is too vague.
It is a cornerstone of our access legislation though and one of it's best features I think.
The guidance on managing camping on the SOAC pages has been updated to reflect the covid situation although I think a lot of it is pretty aspirational for example there's no suggestion of who'd pay for the provisions they suggest.
I do think 'responsible' is clear.
grantyboy
Free Member
last summer I came across a caravan fully setup in a passing place with awning out, he was popular!
This is the type of behaviour I'm on about, they probably know full well that they shouldn't, but they do it anyway. Fannies!
You could also get a lot of car campers on drink driving laws I’d imagine. Lying 10m from you car, with your keys in pocket pished out your face.
imagination is a fine thing
i mean you'd need to show intent. otherwise you could get most folk living on modern estates for being pished in their front room with the car on the drive.
It's an offence where you need to prove you weren't going to drive when unfit, not the other way around. It falls down for the same reasons as policing any other aspect of dirty camping - there are no resources to deal with it.
Bollocks
If you can point me to just one instance of someone in a campervan/motorhome being sentenced for being over the limit whilst sitting in the back I’ll reconsider.
Just published...
https://www.highland.gov.uk/news/article/13487/visitor_management_plan_agreed_for_highland
It’s an offence where you need to prove you weren’t going to drive when unfit, not the other way around. It falls down for the same reasons as policing any other aspect of dirty camping – there are no resources to deal with it.
it falls down as making no sense at all . while technically you may be hyperover imaginative on the matter.
youll have to piss a police person off pretty badly to end up in a court for that because good luck on them getting it to stick if they have lifted you while asleep in a tent near by.
I could just about believe it if it was in the back of a camper van but at the same time the flip side of many of the so called people people know who have had it happen to them have a history of being over confident when drunk 😉
