[Closed] Early morning gym sessions - eat before?

There is no right or wrong - personally I never eat before anything but the hardest morning session (for me, running more than about 10 miles). Anything less and I'll just get up and do it. Saying that, my wife constantly bollocks me for not eating / drinking properly.

Put some energy powder mix in your gym drink perhaps? Minimises the energy deficit but can be done the night before and in your bag ready to go. Might not make a huge difference to the workout but might make you less hungry and suffer less.

I just think its down to individual preference, just figure out what works for you by trial and error.

fuel the night before if it's a big session. I was fasted then started pushing big weights for me, needed to make sure I was properly fueled night before otherwise I'd fail in the sets

OK good stuff, no major consensus so I'll continue with trial and error for now. I certainly don't feel weak or especially ravenous when I get back, a good bowl of porridge AFTER workouts and I feel fine.

As it is I'm still being verrrrrrry careful as I increase my weights so I can probably get away with fasted for a good few sessions yet, it's good form and a couple of lingering tweaks/injuries that are holding me back, not strength.

I don’t feel eating a banana beforehand will make any difference for a relatively short gym session so as above fuelling adequately the night before is more important. Eating afterwards is also very important if you actually want to see any benefit!

It really depends on how hard and for how long you will be training and what you're trying to achieve?

Are you trying to lose weight, get strong, build muscle?

Why are you training fasted? If I was looking to get the maximum impact out of a strength session I would be eating something, even just a banana and a protein shake about 30 mins prior to training.

Remember to factor in protein as well as carbs post-exercise to aid your recovery too.

I used to do a 10 mile cycle commute or a gym leg workout without having breakfast, like others have said, if I ate well the night before I was okay.

Eating afterwards is also very important if you actually want to see any benefit!

Very little evidence that protein after weights makes any different, it's just protein in the total diet that seems to count.

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51840681060_cb2bd442c4.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51840681060_cb2bd442c4.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2mYZ3nS ]Protein timing[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr

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Why are you training fasted?

Mainly convenience and because I like it, although a lot of it might have come from my pathetic attempts at early morning runs where I didn't eat in order to try and avoid stitches.

I'm also trying to lose weight BUT am well aware that training fasted has been debunked as a weight loss technique. That said, if I think the workout won't require fuelling (e.g. an hour of Z2 on the rollers) then I won't eat.

I think I'll go with the current plan e.g. continue early morning workouts without eating, until I start really pushing the weight then I'll maybe have a banana or something.

An 85kg guy squatting 30kg probably doesn't need much additional fuelling... 😂

I read some genuine research somewhere in the last year or so that said men performed better fasted and women did better with food…

Very little evidence that protein after weights makes any different, it’s just protein in the total diet that seems to count.

An 85kg guy squatting 30kg

Careful now ;P

I jest as you are starting out and taking it slowly/sensibly. to be honest if you are feeling it and following good form then good on you 🙂

I tend to find hard carido I feel rough if I eat too soon before, weights, I can eat 30 mins before and not suffer much, however, add in a conditioning intense exercise and I feel grim, as a result I dropped the conditioning! This is not wisdom, merely laziness talking.

An 85kg guy squatting 30kg probably doesn’t need much additional fuelling…

Would depend how many reps, 5x5 maybe not, but 6x30 would be a very different workout...

For 9 months or so my weekday routine has been

4.30 get up, coffee and a poo
5-6 weights (pull/push/legs/pull/push)
6-6.30 5k run on treadmill
6.45-7.15 yoga with Adrienne (swoon)
7.30 eat

I much prefer to train before eating, but as others have said - work out what feels best for you.

and women did better with food…

From my sample of 1, I can believe this. I honestly couldn’t leave the house without something to eat, even if it just to go to my garage gym. Let alone pick up a weight! But I do suffer from blood sugar crashes (not diabetic, a genetic thing apparently). Whereas my brother doesn’t have the same problem and can gym, and then eat.

As a result, whatever works for you.

Pre-COVID and Garage Gym, I used to train at about 0600 at a gym 10 mins from my house.

I used to have a water bottle either with some preworkout or a eloctrolyte+caffeine tab in it and drink half before and then sip the rest during my workout.

I could never stomach food that early and coffee would mean needing a poo halfway through my workout.

I would eat immediately after training but that was down to routine more than anything else.

I would try fasted first and see how you go, but keep a snack in your gym bag.

If you are used to training in the afternoon or evening, do not be surprised if you see your weights drop a bit as it takes a while for your CNS to wake up.

as it takes a while for your CNS to wake up.

Cycling is very good at tiring out the CNS, far more so than lifting weight (even max effort dead lifts)!

CNS fatigue is greatest after long duration low intensity activity, which I think is quite counter intuitive.

I don't, and indeed wouldn't, albeit I'm doing a different kind of exercise.
My morning runs/rides of up to 2 hours ish are all done on no food, an espresso and some water. I may take a gel for emergencies but rarely use it.
It does depend on the intensity to a degree. I'd not race a half marathon (90 mins ish) on empty, but I'd do a slow training run of the same distance (2 hours ish).
For what you're.

I'm also intrigued why high weight/low rep is better than high rep/low weight for work to translate to cycling, but that's a different discussion.

An 85kg guy squatting 30kg probably doesn’t need much additional fuelling

awkward, I now go on my lunch and this was my lunchtime work out...

For 9 months or so my weekday routine has been

4.30 get up, coffee and a poo
5-6 weights (pull/push/legs/pull/push)
6-6.30 5k run on treadmill
6.45-7.15 yoga with Adrienne (swoon)
7.30 eat

Jesus! You are Mark Wahlberg and I claim my £5

Fasted training for me worked well as a tool, to help me get better at utilising fat (or so it felt) but it was rubbish for adding speed as I couldn't ride near my top end so it didn't get trained.

Very useful training tool but not when done exclusively, for me. I'm genetically a sprinter and have a lot of type II muscle so I need carbs to make them go.

For 9 months or so my weekday routine has been

4.30 get up,

You've totally lost me...

Jesus! You are Mark Wahlberg and I claim my £5

He's missing the 3 hour prayer / self reflection session.....

Ha ha, I have to take my daughter to her mates to get to school at 7.40, then shower and work from home from about 8.15. If I didn't get it done in the morning it just wouldn't happen.

I'm into the routine so wake up before the alarm, mind you I'm in bed by 9.30 latest on a weekday.

There are regularly 5 of us at 5am in the gym, it's good to know that it'll be noticed if you don't show up!

I’m also intrigued why high weight/low rep is better than high rep/low weight for work to translate to cycling, but that’s a different discussion.

Because Dylan Johnson said so 😉 (check him out on Youtube, I have no idea if he's 'right' but he references lots of scientific stuff and wins races so it's good enough for me).

There are regularly 5 of us at 5am in the gym, it’s good to know that it’ll be noticed if you don’t show up!

My gym doesn't open till 7am, I have time to snooze the alarm, coffee, some mobility stuff, a quick spin on the rollers and a 20 minute walk to get there 🙄

sc-xc

For 9 months or so my weekday routine has been

4.30 get up, coffee and a poo
5-6 weights (pull/push/legs/pull/push)
6-6.30 5k run on treadmill
6.45-7.15 yoga with Adrienne (swoon)
7.30 eat

For 26 years my weekday routine has been

6:30 get up, wash hair and possible poo

6:45 Toast & Coffee (panic poo if coffee has done its work)

7:10 leave for work

7:40---45 get to work and monumental turn out poo in trap 2

Rest of day poo as required. (Bonus of a work poo is its paid and not my bog paper 😉  )

But as of April this year who knows 😀

6:30 get up, wash hair and possible poo

you only wash your hair?

For 9 months or so my weekday routine has been

4.30 get up, coffee and a poo
5-6 weights (pull/push/legs/pull/push)
6-6.30 5k run on treadmill
6.45-7.15 yoga with Adrienne (swoon)
7.30 eat

Wow... that's impressive dedication !!!

I’m also intrigued why high weight/low rep is better than high rep/low weight for work to translate to cycling, but that’s a different discussion.

I saw videos from Aaron Gwin and a video featuring Remy and they both landed on 8 reps - 4 sets, isnt that high, but it isnt one rep max low!

I’m also intrigued why high weight/low rep is better than high rep/low weight for work to translate to cycling, but that’s a different discussion.

If you want more absolute strength in your legs then you need to train for that which means recruiting high threshold motor units which means lifting very heavy weights for you.

If you do high rep / low weight training you won't increase strength as you're never going to activate any high threshold motor units (as they're not needed at low weights). You're only using your endurance motor threshold units which you use all the time and aren't going to be stressed enough to trigger hypertrophy etc.

Muscles are stunning complex things eg a single hand muscle might contain 40,500 muscle fibes innervated by 120 motor neurons.

They don't all fire at once, the muscle fibres are grouped, by motor neuron, into sets: the majority will be type 1 muscle fibres (maybe 50% fibres, 100 ish neurons) which form the low threshold motor units, these always activate first and get used all the time. They don't exhibit much hypertrophy as they're never stressed.

If you try and do something which the low threshold motor units can't hanlde, and your CNS is up for it, then your brain will call on the higher threshold motor units neurons, typically 45% will be Typle IIA (45% muscles fibres, maybe 100 ish motor neurons).

If this still isn't enough and you're CNS is really fresh, you might activate the top end neurons (5%) which control the type IIX fibres (5% muscle fibres but maybe only 2 neurons at this level).

It's the higher threshold muscle fibres which experience hypertrophy, so if you want strength gains you have to activate those, which means you need to lift weights which exceed the capability of the low threshold motor neurons.

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51841963191_03e1ed30ab.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51841963191_03e1ed30ab.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2mZ6Bvz ]Muscle motor unit info[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr

I’m also intrigued why high weight/low rep is better than high rep/low weight for work to translate to cycling, but that’s a different discussion.

I've seen night & day changes in strength from going to varying sets each week

Week 1: 25-30 reps per set
Week 2: 11-14 reps per set
Week 3: 18-21 reps per set
Week 4: 8-10 reps per set
Week 5: 13-16 reps per set
Week 6: 2-5 reps per set

I'll fail before the end some times and do an extra couple reps other times but that's the basic idea, old school Arnie "shock the muscle" style. The 30 rep weeks are the hardest, no matter how much I reduce weight and how heavy I lift on the 5 rep weeks

Probably won't work for everyone but for me it's the way to go

And to answer the OP I do this at lunchtime, fasted except a protein shake at 7AM, and that's only because I'll be training in the MMA gym until 9PM

4.30 get up, coffee and a poo
5-6 weights (pull/push/legs/pull/push)
6-6.30 5k run on treadmill
6.45-7.15 yoga with Adrienne (swoon)
7.30 eat

For 26 years my weekday routine has been

6:30 get up, wash hair and possible poo

6:45 Toast & Coffee (panic poo if coffee has done its work)

7:10 leave for work

7:40—45 get to work and monumental turn out poo in trap 2

Rest of day poo as required. (Bonus of a work poo is its paid and not my bog paper 😉 )

My routine:

7:45 - get out of bed, as Thought for the Day comes on.

er, that's it.

On working out etc, I need a big breakfast before I can contemplate contemplating anything. Prefer to exercise in the afternoon/evening, and to do so fueled before, ideally during and certainly after. I can get going earlier in the day if I have to but needs to be for surf or a proper ride where others are forcing me to get up, never for training. My wife on the other hand goes to the gym early and unbreakfasted as she's into this eat in a time window thing, which clearly works for her. But I've got much bigger muscles.

Training early morning is a risk because you are statistically more likely to have a heart attack, i never lift heavy before 10am and hydrate and fuel up well before. The most important thing is to find your weaknesses and train them, unlike most gym goers who find what they're good at then train that even more.

Training early morning is a risk because you are statistically more likely to have a heart attack

Completely meaningless unless you state the absolute risk before and after.

E.g. if it's 1 in 10 million chance of having a heart attack per day, say doubled to 1 in 5 million (by training in the morning), you're still more likely to get run over walking to the gym.

Plus, gym work will decrease your absolute chance of dying from a heart attack (even if you train in the morning), so training in the morning might reduce your absolute risk....

Keep my weight training simple, 3 sessions a week, 2 sessions of heavy 4-5 sets of 5 reps, then a third session of higher rep work.

For fuelling make overnight oats night before, 50g of oats, one scoop of protein powder (i like the new Huel one as no sugar) and 150ml of almond milk, can add yoghurt, fruit whatever on top. Gives 40g of quality carbs and 25g of protein, low GI and works for me, pint of water first thing and a strong black offer to.

Tend to keep the two heavier sessions as just the basic compound exercises, no messing about with bicep curls etc

Training early morning is a risk because you are statistically more likely to have a heart attack, i never lift heavy before 10am and hydrate and fuel up well before.

Yes but are you training proper, power-lifter heavy, or just 'cyclist trying to overcome back problems' heavy?

My physio was telling me about his biggest lift and it required spending most of the day hydrating and eating (5000kCal and some ridiculous amount of water) just because there was so much muscle to fuel and hydrate!

Felt pleasingly tired after yesterday's fasted AM session, but also got very hungry towards the end of the day, unhelpfully so (eating the cooking chocolate from the back of the cupboard hungry <why's there no embarassed smiley>). Perhaps reason enough to at least have a banana beforehand.

Yes but are you training proper, power-lifter heavy, or just ‘cyclist trying to overcome back problems’ heavy?

Doesn't really matter, IIRC there is a slightly higher chance of having a heart attack in the morning period, so training in the morning also carries a slightly elevated risk.

However, that's relative risk - the absolute risk eg 1 in a million is still very small and is made smaller by training.

Sleep till 8.30,
Work at home in pyjamas till noon.
Lunch.
Work in actual clothes till 5.
Eat Tea at 6.30
Open wine and watch telly.
Go to sleep again at 11.

Household chores and bike rides at the weekend.

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Full Member
Sleep till 8.30,
Work at home in pyjamas till noon.
Lunch.
Work in actual clothes till 5.
Eat Tea at 6.30
Open wine and watch telly.
Go to sleep again at 11.

Household chores and bike rides at the weekend.

Is that the 'Live slow, die young' routine? 😀

Is that the ‘Live slow, die young’ routine? 😀

Its the pleasure principle 🙂

6:30 get up, wash hair and possible poo

you only wash your hair?

He's possibly washing his poo as well.

Since the people who know stuff are on the thread - I have a question:

I'm currently cycling, running and doing one base swim a week cos I have a tri in September. I don't think I can fit an actual weight programme in there because it will make me too tired to do the Zwift races which are working very well for me.

So if I do some arm or code KB exercises like standing presses, will this stimulate a bit of HGH and help my cycling muscles adapt from the cycling workouts? I have tried it a bit and it seemed to help, but it could have just been my imagination. I know KBs don't generally count as heavy, but my 24kg is heavier than I can do an overhead press currently 🙂

So if I do some arm or code KB exercises like standing presses, will this stimulate a bit of HGH and help my cycling muscles adapt from the cycling workouts?

Looks like you'll get more from your Zwift races.....

An exercise intensity above lactate threshold and for a minimum of 10 minutes appears to elicit the greatest stimulus to the secretion of hGH.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12797841/

Interesting. I've certainly seen much better recovery and progress doing Zwift races than trying to do base training and restrict calories in the past. However I've not lost much weight yet!

Along these lines there was an article in I think road.cc about staying fast as you get old and they all recommended heavy weights to promote HGH to keep ageing at bay. But the people in the article were all top amateurs or elites so presumably have already been doing high intensity cardio for most of their careers.

Getting slightly off topic, but the couple of tris I've done, finishing 5th v50 each time so not exactly setting the world on fire, I swam a couple of times a week as a quick workout (500m crawl then some sprint lengths, ran a couple of times a week to know that my joints were up to it, cycled as normal i.e. reasonably hard recreational mtb with some road, and did weights as normal (full body couple of times a week) because that is my normal.

Relative to others I was quickest on the bike, not surprisingly I guess - enjoyed cruising past people with tri bars struggling on the steep bits... Slowest on the swim - to my surprise as I think I'm strong in the water but people who have a proper swimming background would obviously think not.

If I get into one this Sept, as I hope, main change will be to try to learn a bit of swimming technique. I do not think I'm operating at a level where it's worth interrupting normal life or anything that's fun, just squeezing a bit more out of current routines. And relevant to thread, that means keeping the weights going as at my advanced age I think having a bit of extra muscle mass is good for metabolism, morale and load-bearing strength, and I don't want to lose it to have to get it back even if it's not going to help with endurance stuff.

Along these lines there was an article in I think road.cc about staying fast as you get old and they all recommended heavy weights to promote HGH to keep ageing at bay.

Not read that article, but my understanding was weight training was for bone density and maintaining muscle mass which I don't think is related to HGH (could be totally wrong about that bit though). I've not read anything about HGH in the hypertrophy process (although we still don't know what actually triggers hypertrophy at the cellular level).

Sorry, it was Cycling Weekly. There's every chance I misunderstood it though as I only skimmed.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/older-yet-faster-training-secrets-of-the-super-veterans

Isn't hypertrophy simply getting bigger? Or does it also include stronger?

Isn’t hypertrophy simply getting bigger? Or does it also include stronger?

I was wondering that, I thought the idea behind low reps/high weight was strength WITHOUT hypertrophy, as bigger muscles = heavier muscles?

Isn’t hypertrophy simply getting bigger?

Yes

Or does it also include stronger?

Bigger muscles are stronger (all else being equal).

Strength comes from different mechanisms:

- Neural adaption (coordination) better control of the muscle eg sequence firing of neurons (see my post above where a single muscle has over 100 controllers)
- Neural adaption (coordination) better coordination between different muscles and antagonist muscles etc
- Neural adaption (better CNS training) activating the highest threshold motor units doesn't just happen, it takes training and a recovered CNS
- changes to the muscle itself which increase it's strength eg tendon stiffness

and a picture is worth a 1000 words,

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51843071115_859d21e6cd.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51843071115_859d21e6cd.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2mZchRH ]Strength gains[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr

The above explains the quick gains everyone sees when they first join a gym and start lifting weights. Ignoring the pump after lifting muscles, they haven't experienced any hypertrophy but can double (or more) their first lifts - all of which comes from neurological adaptions - learning how to make the muscle work efficiently. Seems counter intuitive until you realise that each hand muscle has over 100 neurons to control and doing a bicep curl probably uses 20 different muscles...

Another mechanism is mechanical advantage, as muscles get bigger (like bulging) the fibres on the bulge have a better angle of pull on the joint esp when the joint is totally open, which is where the mechanical advantage is weakest. This is why the fastest way to add 5kg to your bicep curl is to reduce the range of motion by 10 degrees and the fastest way to add 10 kg to your bicep curl is to reduce it by 25 degrees! You see this all the time in the gym 🙂

Interesting and apologies for the side track. I do wonder what effect 1RM has on the different activities that make up cycling.

And, given that I am starting to swim more now, should I be doing some lifts to improve the activation of my crappy arm muscles rather than simply increasing their aerobic capacity in the pool with slow swimming? What I know about my own body from cycling doesn't really apply the same to my arms, as I've always been cycling but have rarely swum much and as such my arms are basically starting from an untrained level.

I do wonder what effect 1RM has on the different activities that make up cycling.

1 RM is a measure of the max force a muscle can deliver. If you double your 1 RM then for a given load (say cycling at 200 Watts) you're using less high threshold motor units for that load, which means you have more in reserve and can sustain more fatigue (CNS fatigue) before the motor units you are using start switching off.

So it has applicable benefits, hence track riders spend a lot of time lifting big weights.

However, if you want to be a climber or endurance athlete, the extra mass might be a problem, so the Chris Froomes of this world won't be trying to up their back squat 1RM.

And, given that I am starting to swim more now,

Swimming is a very high skill level sport, so huge gains to be made from just improving your stroke.

Swimming is a very high skill level sport, so huge gains to be made from just improving your stroke.

Assuming you weren't a club swimmer in a previous life, skill will be the limiting factor here. Take some classes if you can.

Yes, I'm aware of that - my effort is focused on my stroke. But I also need fitness - the question is, do I want to go the traditional route of base miles/lengths, or do I want to do some kind of weight exercise from the start - WHILST I think about my stroke?

I think my technique is already much better than my fitness because I have focused and drilled myself on it before, but since then I have swum about 3x a year so I start off well and get tired really quickly and my technique goes to pot.

Join a tri club if you can, they should have someone on hand to help with your technique. It will also keep you ‘honest’ and add a little discipline to your sessions. If not seek out a swim club if you’ve one local.

Train hard, race easy.
Good Luck

Nah I can't do clubs.