[Closed] "Dutch roundabout" in Cambridge

Works fine when I’ve seen them in the Netherlands- not optimistic about the average UK driver having the IQ to cope with not being no.1 though

Presumably you can pass 'pon de left hand side?

Yep, already covered by road.cc a couple of years ago: http://road.cc/content/news/211156-cambridge-get-its-first-true-dutch-roundabout

I expect it'll be much more intuitive on the ground as you won't see the whole thing from above, only your lane.

Is this like a Dutch rudder?

If it were Dutch, then the bike bit would at least be a different colour tarmac, so it's really blimmin obvious as a driver that you're crossing a bike path.

And possibly with a ramp to drive up to the bike path / footpath level.

So I call it a token half Dutch attempt at a roundabout.

And the odd single one here or there prolly won't work. Dutch ones work, because every single roundabout are like it, so double give-way to enter and double give-way to exit a roundabout is the norm. As is having to give way to stuff on your inside for every single turning in to a side street, etc.

Well drivers seem to have a hard enough time with spiral roundabouts so I don't have much hope for this. Right direction though.

The Dutch style junctions are fab, I’m entirely in support of them. They are more of a cognitive workload, though, on the motorbike. I presume this means the same for drivers, too.

Rachel (just back from Utrecht)

Sounds great. I wonder if you could get the majority of the safety benefits for cyclists on other roundabouts which don’t have the space for the cycle lane ring, by simply putting the ped crossings on the entry/exit arms. Thus slowing entry speed & helping to prevent SMIDSYs.

And the odd single one here or there prolly won’t work. Dutch ones work, because every single roundabout are like it,

Yeah, I thought the same thing TBH.

And helical roundabouts are ace.

If it were Dutch, then the bike bit would at least be a different colour tarmac, so it’s really blimmin obvious as a driver that you’re crossing a bike path.

That's not the actual roundabout, it's a test version built by TRL a few years back.

The best reference source on Dutch infra is usually David Hembrow's blog.

http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2014/05/the-best-roundabout-design-for-cyclists.html

He says that design of roundabout (which has been used in NL) actually has a poor safety record.

The Crystal Palace Parade roundabout mentioned at the end of that linked report is even worse. The original designs at least incorporated some elements of dutch design to slow vehicle speeds but the final design was tweaked to maintain speeds through the roundabouts (not the broader geometry, roundabout islands shrunk, multi stage crossings,  loss of entrance and exit lanes for people on bikes). It's a major step forward for pedestrians (there were previously no zebra or signalised crossings within 500m in any direction) but now so inconvenient for people on bikes anyone who has ridden the roads to get there will stay on them to negotiation this.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/18sbfuuIiGSIkDwdyv3ZXOKUExMlYdIXQFvLQefxJ6k4/edit?usp=sharing

Works fine when I’ve seen them in the Netherlands- not optimistic about the average UK driver having the IQ to cope with not being no.1 though

This ^^^

I was out riding yesterday quite happily bimbling along comfortably in my lane. There was a row of cars parked in the opposite lane (I was about 3/4 of the way down) when a tractor pulled across and came straight at me (pretty much edge-to-edge) and didn't even slow to help me to take evasive action.

This sort of thing happens multiple times every ride; drivers simply drive as if I don't exist, seemingly under the impression that, where cyclists are concerned, the rules of the road don't apply and that it's the cyclist's responsibility to get out of the way regardless of right of way.

And that's the fly in the ointment.

The Dutch approach works not just because of the infrastructure but because Dutch drivers are also Dutch cyclists (who just happen to be in a motor vehicle at the time).

Dutch infrastructure in the UK (although it's a step forward) just presents the UK driver with mores rules to ignore.

Somehow we need to teach drivers to respect cyclists, their safety and the rules of the road and suitably prosecute those that drive dangerously.

Somehow we need to teach drivers to respect cyclists, their safety and the rules of the road and suitably prosecute those that drive dangerously.

Plus a million. Unless the driver inadvertently gets a London Marathon number stuck his tyres, he can mow down half of Cambridge and walk away without a point on his licence. Cyclists in NL are safe because drivers are shit-scared of hitting them because they know that they will get punished regardless of whose fault it might have been.

Works fine when I’ve seen them in the Netherlands- not optimistic about the average UK driver having the IQ to cope with not being no.1 though

This, too. I give it about five minutes after it's opened before the first car begins queuing across the cycle lane bit.

Cyclists in NL are safe because drivers are shit-scared of hitting them because they know that they will get punished regardless of whose fault it might have been.

I really don't think that's the case. It's a different attitude, and one of respect rather than fear. I think it's an important distinction to make as a shift in attitude is, IMO the best way to make our roads safer and you won't achieve that with punitive legislation alone.

Dutch ones work, because every single roundabout are like it

Yes, unfortunately this will probably be a pointless waste of money.

I really don’t think that’s the case. It’s a different attitude, and one of respect rather than fear

You could be right,and I over-generalised from my own feelings when driving in NL

Works fine when I’ve seen them in the Netherlands- not optimistic about the average UK driver having the IQ to cope with not being no.1 though

It isn't IQ - I commute on Dutch roads and there are as many dumb drivers over here, if not more, than in the UK. Take a look at Duch Dashcams on Youtube if you want confirmation. My commute is less than 10 Kms, and I often see it appear on their videos. The roundabout won't work in the UK if there is only 1 of them, familiarity is the key for this sort of junction. Obvs they have to start with one though.

If they really do keep the same colour tarmac for bikes and cars that is just spectacularly stupid, and will cause dead cyclists. The point of these junctions is that drivers get black tarmac, the cyclists get red, which *goes over the top* of the black, to make priority clear. In the example in the picture, there's a give way line where a driver wouldn't expect one.  Pointless.

People always kick up a fuss when anything new comes along. You should read the continuing inferno surrounding the introduction of normal roundabouts in the small American town where my in-laws live.  You'd think the world was going to end.  And they are only small single lane ones on crossroads.  Loads of people claiming they were impossible and would never work completely ignoring those who point out that they work pretty well in the rest of the world.

Americans and roundabouts?

I've seen National Lampoon's European Vacation, so I can see why they may have concerns 😉

Cambridge is a pretty cycling tolerant town but still miles away from the continent eg we were in Berlin over the WE and couldn't get over how nice all the cars were to cyclists. Noticeably nicer than in Cambridge.