[Closed] DS Piracy

What's a 'DS Pirate'? Dandy Sailor?

Why are Pirates called Pirates...

...Becaue they AARGGGGHHHH (better with a Cornish accent).

My daughter has a card for her ds but it is used for mp3 and watching films in the car.

Although it is redundant since Santa delivered a new nano.

Piracy has seriously effected the pc market. Developers tend to release games for the pc months after they appear on console. They are then pirated seriously quickly upon release. A lot of the games never make it onto pc for this exact reason.

All the recent PC titles I've worked on are pretty much exactly the same as the console versions - there's no point in adding extra features, or taking advantage of high end graphics cards because the game won't sell enough to make it worthwhile.

There is extra work to do on a PC version though - not a huge amount (compatability etc), but even that is enough to make most publishers question whether they want to bother, the market is so poor.

There's no option to try before you buy with DS [AFAIK] so people just use an R4 card or whatever & download them - how often they keep playing the games after they've 'tried' them - I have no idea

I suppose the games companies only lose if the downloader would have bought the game in the first place, if they had no intention of buying it in the first place, it's hard to see who lost out
You could also argue that pirated software drives legit sales
Microsoft did very little to stop pirated versions of Office because they knew fine well that once it became universal, most companies would have to use it because that's what all the prospective employees were used to.
It's a ploy that worked IMO

[b]HOME TAPING IS KILLING MUSIC[/b]

My brother in law part-owns a games writing company in Canada (Slant Six) and the amount of time, money and effort that goes into games writing is eye-watering. They need to sell a lot of units to break even, let alone make profit.

As was said on the other threads, games piracy will hit the smaller developers to the point where they won't be viable.

Mention bike theft on here and you can almost feel the collective blood boil. Other forms of theft seem almost acceptable.

I think the balancing act for the games industry is market tends to adopt the platform that lends itself most readily for piracy, so people buy the hardware but their piracy risks extinguishing the content.

HOME TAPING IS KILLING MUSIC

Indeed
Why only yesterday I saw Madonna begging for the price of a cup of tea outside McDonalds

Piracy has seriously effected the pc market. Developers tend to release games for the pc months after they appear on console. They are then pirated seriously quickly upon release. A lot of the games never make it onto pc for this exact reason.

PC gamers often get shafted in favour of console gamers, be it shoddy/delayed ports or missing features. COD:MW2 being a prime example where the PC mulitplayer was neutered (no dedicated servers). Response to this? Mass pirating/boycotting of a game that would have sold by the bucket load if it had the same treatment as the console versions.

Good points uplink, although with software like Word it has a much longer lifespan and the value there is in the standard.

Also agree on the try before you buy thing - it's why most publishers will insist on a demo version for PSN / XBox Live / Steam.

Piracy is something that can't be stopped, and it's arguable that attempts to do so (draconian DRM measures etc) do more harm than good.

The thing is, the market for DS and PC development is terrible, which would suggest that piracy is having a strong negative impact.

I don't like the way it's ok with some people to steal software. It's the same with music downloads. What makes that ok but stealing from your local bike shop not?

What makes that ok but stealing from your local bike shop not?

What if someone made a copy of a bike in a shop & kept it for their own use?
Is that the same as stealing the bike?

I don't like the way it's ok with some people to steal software. It's the same with music downloads. What makes that ok but stealing from your local bike shop not?

because people place a value 'things' but not ideas, time or other people

What if someone made a copy of a bike in a shop & kept it for their own use?
Is that the same as stealing the bike?

in effect, yes

edit: and it happens

What if someone made a copy of a bike in a shop & kept it for their own use?
Is that the same as stealing the bike?

I think intellectual theft would apply due to infringing patents.

That's way I'm against it, as someone who is paid to come up with ideas.

i dont play any computer games let alone know how to pirate a ds games so probably shouldnt cooment but i will.

i assume people download the game illegally, so is there wide spread legal downloads of the game at reduced prices from buying from the shop?

or is it all ****ed up like music industry where a music download can be drm crippled and cost more than a physical cd?

I think intellectual theft would apply due to infringing patents.

I would have thought that would only apply if you tried to market/sell it

I'm not sure the bike copy analogy really works. The massive bulk of value in music or games is the creative content; the packaging or delivery medium adds very little. With a bike the physical materials are intrinsic to the objects purpose. It would be fairer to compare using a bike companies materials and facilites to create a copy. And yes, that would be stealing.

I think this debate is very interesting. Most people would have copied CD's or software, I guess it's hard for individuals to accept that they have stolen something. I've got a few copies, and yet my company runs a record label. I think the most worrying are the people who have never paid for anything. If that gets more prevalent, as al2000 says game development or music production can become financially difficult.

piracy pretty much did help kill off the amiga many years ago ( though commodores bungled management probably didn't help much either )

i did play pirated games when i was a kid but i found that i never put as much time into playing games compared to ones i bought so i stopped doing it.

I guess I'll have to reveal I'm a oldie here..... I got my first cassette recorder in 1971 & I remeber then there was a big scaremongering lobby going on about how it would ruin the music industry - nearly 40 years on, it doesn't look too shabby

I don't really have any experience with gaming so maybe I shouldn't comment on it but I bet they're still going long after I'm not
They may not turn over as much profit as they would like [what company does?] but I reckon they'll still have a healthy balance sheet long into the future

Tried steam recently, very impressed. Cheap prices, so I could quickly, cheaply and easily have a copy of a game I wanted to play (half life 2). It's a lot easier than getting a pirate copy, "just works" and got a good fast download speed. And it was cheap enough that I was happy to pay the price for the ease.

IMO that's why itunes worked - they made it cheap enough, and easy enough to get legal copies that there's almost no point pirating. Some still will, but make it cheap and easy for enough people and it'll work.

PC gaming dying off is more to do with compatibility issues and the widely differing hardware etc. making it hard to create a consistent game experience.

There's also the streaming/spotify model if you like. Best example here is quake live. The game's free to play, but they control the content and the experience. So at some point when it's out the beta there'll be ads in game etc. I can see this style being more popular.

You could also argue that pirated software drives legit sales
Microsoft did very little to stop pirated versions of Office because they knew fine well that once it became universal, most companies would have to use it because that's what all the prospective employees were used to.
It's a ploy that worked IMO

The home taping thing isn't really in the same league as downloading though. A quick google gives me figures of around a 30% decline in music industry revenues over the last 10 years. Not healthy at all. The internet has really opened up everything. What do you do for a living Uplink? Surely you can see why it grates to see things you may have worked hard on offered up for free, as if worthless?

Which is completely different to pirating games - unless you're suggesting that big companies are likely to purchase bulk licenses for GTA4?

I guess people with unlicensed copies could drive up demand by posting good reviews etc. in a viral marketing sort of way?
Who knows? it was just an observation of how this sort of thing could be tolerated by the copyright owners for a while

What do you do for a living Uplink?

Satellite broadcaster
we lose a good bit of stuff to people that don't pay for it - but they were never likely to either, so we don't lose sleep

i am more than happy to pay for games/music e.t.c. but what boils my p**S is why we are forced to pay a lot more for it than other places. i remember reading about sony and the ps3 (and them saying that they could charge 50% or above in the uk for games/console whilst also having less features on the console compared to japan/america e.t.c.)also look at the special editions of games released over here compared to japan/america.they have lovely extras that we just do not get.also it costs less!i don't condone piracy,but i can understand why it happens.

I agree that piracy is wrong (and don't actually have any pirate software on my computer.)

I've also hacked DRM schemes for games in the dim and distant past - not because I wanted to pirate them, just because it was a pain having to have the physical disk when I wanted to play it. That was years back when I had the time to disassemble machine code in my spare time.

I've also written the damn things (DRM things), although complete waste of time that was (and the company wasted loads of support time when people managed to break their licences or someone important needed the software on their other computer straight away or whatever).

I don't think the PC market for games is screwed because of piracy though, it is because gaming PCs are so ludicrously expensive nowadays, at least the kind of configuration that will get you a better than console games experience is. Even if you buy the games on the console, you'd have to play a lot of games to make up for the extra cost of a PC (and the cost of upgrading it every 6 months to play the latest game).

In terms of the DS, I think Nintendo really lucked out that it isn't so easy / widespread to pirate games. I know loads of people with a DS, and only 1 person with a dodgy card (who doesn't buy any games at all - that 'try before you buy' argument is just rubbish in most cases).

Piracy is an odd one though - I imagine maybe at some point it'll stop being a problem for games companies as most games devices will have online connections, so we'll play most games on servers, where the money we pay is for the server account. That would be a right pain (no more 2nd hand games), but I wouldn't be surprised by it at some point.

Joe

think the industries need to move on, times have changed and a lot of people download as its easier than going into town

make it worth peoples while to download off you instead of the torrents sites and you've cracked it

I would love to download movies games music direct from source at full speed and perfect quality for a membership fee or the price of the component with no packaging delivery all the extra costs

I mean does anyone know the profit margin on a dvd or cd for the distributor out of interest? I imagine a few quid but don't know

Isn't there less piracy of Nintendo titles than PCs or other consoles because the owners are typically less "hardcore" gamers?

Anyway, piracy has been widespread in the games industry since the games came on cassettes.

I'm not saying it's OK or anything, and I don't do it myself anymore, but surely it's a factor that the industry must plan for? Is it really worse now than on the Amiga for example, when it was amazingly easy to copy games?

I mean does anyone know the profit margin on a dvd or cd for the distributor out of interest

No but I was talking to a mate [classical singer] a while back about what he earns from downloads - Apparently he gets 11%, The same as if one of his CDs sells

The distribution company still takes the lions share for doing [pretty much] nothing

Piracy of software in general is big business, and not done by greasy hackers in their bedrooms anymore. This is a business more profitable than selling drugs, and funds organised crime.

As their only costs are whats in the box, it isn't hard to see why they do it.

I just wish the general public would use a little common sense when making a purchase. If it seems to be too good to be true, IT IS! If you buy it, you're helping the unsavouries become richer and able to do more, and their methods are no less cruel than you see in any of Guy Richies movies.

It isn't cool or clever to buy a pirate copy.

It isn't cool or clever to buy a pirate copy

People [on the whole] aren't buying them - they're downloading them, for free

you'd be suprised

Just to point something out, piracy isn't the same as theft, it's copy write infringement. Doesn't make it right, but it is an important distinction.

On the flip side though how many times have you been blimming annoyed at paying £20+ for a game only for it to be rubbish/glitchy etc etc? The try before you buy useage of these cards is priceless. There are so many weak games out there on the ds and wii that command these prices.

But the 'try before buy' could apply to anything; books, bike parts, lunch from Tesco, but it's only used to justify software/music piracy.

it was just an observation of how this sort of thing could be tolerated by the copyright owners for a while

Ewan, what do software/music companies have if their Intellectual Property is stollen/abused to the point where the developers/musicians are not receiving a single penny from the sale of their creation?

Theft is theft, call it something else like... Eric, but it's still theft.

If there's no money in it why does a guy I know who is still in his 20's and writes games, have a massive house and two brand new posh cars? and from what I see, he does not appear to work that many hours, his wife does not work at all.

if it's all binary.
how can you copyright a series of 1s and 0s?

I've downloaded games for my kid's DS on occasion. He's also got about 30 bought games, which he hardly ever plays.
£30 a time for these crappy little games is ridiculous (definitely to me, who can't stand the waste of time that is "gaming"). If they were a tenner each, more would sell, less would be downloaded. (please don't try to tell me they would be cheaper if there was no piracy).
It's the nature of the whole Internet thing isn't it. Without the internet piracy would be minimal, but then so would the marketing (of all kinds) these things get.

I thought that Nintendo's model was to make money on the console/device and therefore didn't give two hoots over software protection - yet Sony and MS make it back on the license? Doesn't help the software house much I suppose.
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I do think that torrents got too main stream. It became common place to hear people talking about the latest movie and downloading it before release (in Australia) so not bothering to go and watch it in the cinema. That's coming to a close though since folk have started to get desist emails from their ISPs 😯

I find it hard to get upset over people who download movies and music - it's not like those industries are dying off, movies are grossing as much as ever (Avatar anyone). Hard to get upset when the latest pop-star has to downgrade the level of private jet they fly. And as for the 'small groups are being hammered' scenario, well I'd put it that they either aren't going to be torrented as they're too small, or that extra exposure won't hurt them - their fan base will buy the music proper, and folk who ordinarily wouldn't listen to them will be trying out new (and maybe become a fan).

>If there's no money in it why does a guy I know who is still in his 20's

I know of one ex-colleague who's in that position - but I think the reality is the returns for most games developers (ie the engineers) are pretty average, salary wise. If a game does really well they'll get decent royalities from it, but for every game that is a hit, there's probably loads which aren't.

We've had several guys over the years that have joined our company, coming from game developers, and it certainly hasn't been for the money...

it's not like those industries are dying off

Ewan, what do software/music companies have if their Intellectual Property is stollen/abused to the point where the developers/musicians are not receiving a single penny from the sale of their creation?

Theft is theft, call it something else like... Eric, but it's still theft.

Admittedly it's not obvious why it's not theft until you think about for a bit. Probably easiest to understand by looking at an analogy:

If I have a car, and you take my car, I do not have a car any more. However if I have some software and you copy the software, we both have the software.

That's why it's copy right infringement not theft.

Ewan

How about I get a copy of the keys for your car and drive it around while you are still at work. I'll use your petrol but will always return it before 5:30.

I guess you will not mind as I haven't stolen the car and you can still use it the rest of the time?

Graham - I wasn't saying it wasn't wrong, I was just saying that it's not theft. That's a statement of fact. It's an entirely different offence so the comparisons with theft are not valid.

Besides, your analogy is still incorrect. A more accurate analogy would be if you looked at my car, carefully measured, replicated, and assembled every component, fueled it with your own petrol (electricity in the case of software), all whilst never actually touching my car or rendering it unavailable to me.

Ewan

It may not be theft but it's very close to it. I don't think your analogy is correct as although you own the car you didn't design it (mine was poor as well). Do you considerer intellectual property not to be property? Its difficult because while you are correct to say that in copying you don't deprive the owner of their copy but you are depriving the creator of their revenue.

I should say I'm not really happy about switching from an owner the a rights holder, I can always sell CD but I can't do the same with an eBook or an MP3

Personally I don't think all intellectual property should be classed as property - for example I struggle with the legitimacy of software patents. Music / software is more clear cut - however I do think that criminalising a large portion of the population is not a good solution. A change in business model is what's needed.

I think you are right to say that a change of business model is needed for music but I'm not so sure how it will work for software.

I think that the games developers will switch to more online content in the style of World of Warcraft and Second Life.

For other types of software I've noticed a trend towards free software but paid support.

@ skid artist. There's no correlation between few sales and lots of torrenting. This is bad regression analysis.
It's like saying "cool look Avatar's doing really well in the cinema so no one will torrent it." I suspect that's not going to be the case.
There's more to be said for financial climate, suitability for big screen, marketing, global releases at the same time, etc etc.
An example of this would be Harry Brown - good film (apparently) but not released in Aus. If I want to watch it and talk about it to friends in the UK I'll need to torrent it.
But, Iron Man, came out everywhere at the same time (I think), and although there's heaps of torrents about for it, it's something that a lot of folk I work with have gone to see, it's just a good film to watch in the cinema. And there's a heap who have bought the blu-ray disk too. That's not even easy to torrent it's so big...

The distribution company still takes the lions share for doing [pretty much] nothing

Presumably you do your work as a [i]Satellite broadcaster[/i] for free then 😉

An example of this would be Harry Brown - good film (apparently) but not released in Aus. If I want to watch it and talk about it to friends in the UK I'll need to torrent it.

Or order it on-line and pay for it.

Presumably you do your work as a Satellite broadcaster for free then

Whoooooooooooooooooooosssssssshhhhhhhh......................

No, but we get a lot less now than we used to for sat time as the technology has changed & more methods for distribution have become available
the music distributors still want the same cut however they deliver it, because it's easy for them to shaft the artist

It's not a great service, and it needs more games on it, but if you've got a Wii as well there is a "try-before-you-buy" facility where you can download a limited number of DS demos from the Nintendo channel.

Personally I don't think all intellectual property should be classed as property - for example I struggle with the legitimacy of software patents. Music / software is more clear cut - however I do think that criminalising a large portion of the population is not a good solution. A change in business model is what's needed.

maybe a change in thinking is needed.
without software patents those areas of business that rely on the copyright designs and patents act 1988 to enforce their intellectual property rights will cease to exist.
extensive pirating will mean less choice of software apart from open source stuff. i would rather pay for good software that works than steal free software that doesn't.

I've downloaded games for my kid's DS on occasion. He's also got about 30 bought games, which he hardly ever plays.
£30 a time for these crappy little games is ridiculous (definitely to me, who can't stand the waste of time that is "gaming").

So what you're saying is that you bought a load of bad games, at full price, without even finding out what they are about. And they should be cheaper.

Two things really

1) they are cheaper - only a sucker pays £30 for a game except for the latest big game on the day of release. Most of my games (except for Zelda etc. that I had to buy straight away) cost under £20. Mostly new, although I have picked up a few 2nd hand ones.

2) I think you don't appreciate how much work goes into some of these games - things like Zelda have teams of 50+ people working on them, the cost is well into the millions of pounds, and there's only so many games they can sell (about 50 million maximum currently), so for games like that £30 seems pretty fair really.

It is depressing how people can completely write off a whole genre of stuff just because they don't understand it though - if I said "I can't stand those crappy little movies", or "I hate those crappy little books", people would think I was pretty stupid no?

[i]Piracy of software in general is big business, and not done by greasy hackers in their bedrooms anymore. This is a business more profitable than selling drugs, and funds organised crime.[/i]

It's done by groups, some of which have been around for years for a status thing. They release them for free on to torrent sites, they don't make any money it's against their 'code'.

the music distributors still want the same cut however they deliver it, because it's easy for them to shaft the artist

A big part of me agrees with that. I'm never going to pay £7 for MP3 when I can buy the CD for a few pounds more. However, you can see why they do it. If sales are down about 30% in a decade, I think they're just trying to maintain profit levels.

[i]So what you're saying is that you bought a load of bad games, at full price, without even finding out what they are about. And they should be cheaper.[/i]

No, I've never bought him a game. The games he's got are the ones he's asked for from relatives etc.

[i]It is depressing how people can completely write off a whole genre of stuff just because they don't understand it [/i]

joe. [i]understand[/i]? Seriously? We are talking about [i][b]playing games[/b][/i].

Dez, I think you're missing Joe's point.

Much like a film or book, games can tell stories, and engage the player on many levels, You can feel for the characters emotionally etc etc too. Why should they be any less valid a form of creative expression than films or books? Indeed they can be more engaging than the above, as one (or more) of the characters in the story is you, and you make their choices.

EDIT: assuming i'm not missing you're point, i took "[b]playing games[/b]" to be meant in a condescending way, much like watching films could be just "staring blankly at flashing lights".

and funds organised crime.