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Just back from 2 weeks in Morzine which included driving there and back from Glasgow. First time I'd driven on the opposite side of the road and I was a bit apprehensive. In hindsight it was an absolute doddle and actually very enjoyable. I was simply staggered at how good the roads were, both from a driving standard and the quality of the roads. In almost 2,200 miles we encountered zero traffic jams and about 1 mile of roadworks. given the tolls I appreciate why the roads are such good quality. But the driving standards were a real eye opener.
Some observations -
* Driving standards were amazingly high.
* Lane discipline was superb.
* No one hogged the middle or outside lane. Cars approached the car in front, indicated in plenty of time, pulled out for the overtake then pulled back in.
* There was very little disparity in speed between the slowest and fastest cars. Not once did we encounter anyone doing probably less than 5-10mph lower than the speed limit.
* Other than a few British cars and a couple of mad Swiss drivers, everyone obeyed the speed limit. I kept the speed limiter or cruise control at or below the relevant limits and there was never anyone rocketing past or tailgating you. With everyone doing close to or at the limit, overtaking and traffic flow was perfect.
* The speed limit of 81mph was great and no one died in a fiery inferno
* There were virtually no trucks on the roads we were on
So what the hell are the French doing that makes it all work so perfectly compared to the UK. The drive to/ from Glasgow to Dover was the polar opposite in almost every regard. Everyones obsession with being in the outside lane as that's the "fast" one. Cars and trucks varying between 40mph and 100mph+ on the motorway. People joining the motorway and instantly pulling into the middle lane and staying there. Near constant traffic jams and horrendous roadworks. Tailgating and road rage. swerving in and out of lanes without indicating. etc, etc.
It can't just be the fact they're toll roads, so is there something in the French driving test, laws or culture that makes it all so good?
One of the big differences is traffic density. France is a big country with lots of empty bits between big cities. Driving standards in and around big cities are about the same as the UK.
i found driving in france to be ace , as i did germany and holland and luxembourg
belgium on the other hand what a shower of bagstards.
they would actively block the british plates as soon as you indicated to move out - reminded me of driving in texas.
Having a smaller population living in a larger country helps a great deal. For a taste of home, drive through Paris 🙂
The biggest difference I have found is the lane discipline.
Apparently the French Police will pull you over and give you a ticket if you hog the wrong lane.
For some reason drivers in the UK just don't seem to understand how to use a motorway correctly.
You didn't get the car arriving at 150kph behind you flashing and indicator on because your not overtaking quick enough then?
Apart from that traffic density helps, also you don't use the autoroute for a 10min trip between junctions so it eliminates some of the idiots who should never be allowed on the motorway.
Totally agree. Motorway driving standards were very good when I was there last year. Two weeks and nothing at all. No tailgating, undertaking etc. etc.
Think I'd been back in the UK about 5 mins before I lost my shit with some lass trying to join a 70mph road doing 10mph at the end of the slip road right in front of me. She eventually came to a complete stop. Think she might still be there now!
Distances and population innit.
Loads of gridlock on D roads if you care to venture off the E'routes, even some A'routes suffer if coming close to a city (large or small)
But you are right, lots of very good drivers using the E'routes. I often travel France/Italy/Switzerland/Germany and in all honesty I'd say the driving experiance is very pleasant and stress free.
Here, well we just don't have the space do we.
So what the hell are the French doing that makes it all work so perfectly compared to the UK.
Charge tolls.
Driving in France is ace. I did +100miles with the cruise control on coming back last year from Samoens. Just the odd occasional tailgater was an annoyance but otherwise French M-way are very relaxing to drive on.
For some reason drivers in the UK just don't seem to understand how to use a motorway correctly.
try driving in the states. They only change lanes when there is something in front or they want the exit and happily overtake on either side. Makes UK drivers look like the Swiss (a German workmate lives in Basel and complains about how rule-obsessed they are...)
I agree that the speeds are more consistent on the autoroutes - I was bang on 130 (by the satnav rather than speedo) and found almost everyone else doing the same speed or a fraction slower (guessing 130 on speedo which is usually a little slower). Or the same for 110 zones. It does mean you can do almost the whole distance on cruise control without varying speed.
As said though, toll roads (I spent almost 40 Euros doing 300 miles) and the same population (give or take) with double the land area are big reasons why.
Just back from Spian - 1000+ miles each direction (mostly in France obvs)
Yes driving standard pretty good - The Belgians are mostly crappy drivers.
The only thing did take a while to get used to was they expect you to move out really early to overtake something slower - If you dont put out they assume it is fine to waft along 1mph faster than you. - dont think it was deliberate as all the locals pulled out waaaaay before I would.
They do have a minimum speed limit and lorries are banned from overtaking cars (/other lorries?) in some places.
N
PS first day back at work today and I got TWO PUNCTURES on the way to work!!!!
Generally, it's very good indeed throughout Europe (tailgating loons on the Autostradas and A8 in Germany aside.) Try heading South on the A6 out of Paris on a Saturday morning in August though. Makes the M6 look disciplined.
Definitely Belgium if you want to experience bad driving, tailgating at the speed limit with inches between cars, and flooring it up the inside, flooring it into a gap if you indicate to pull out,... edit: and really shonky road quality on the E40 between Liege and Brussels, that shakes your fillings out.
Germany for the speed differential, center lane hoggers, etc., and the sound of a SL55AMG or Cayenne Sport come flying past, that you can still hear as he's passing other cars half a kilometer up the road.
Italy varies a lot. Driving in the vicinity of Rome, Turin and the Dolomites is totally different ime.
French have 2.5x as much motorway per person than us. In addition the population centres are further apart. That's why it's empty.
I agree, it's a pleasure most of the time, big towns and cities are just as congested as over here with as many entitled drivers imo.
I've found driving in the UK relaxing compared to driving in Spain.
Always found driving down to the Alps a pleasant thing. Driving in this country is torture.
Except for the flat empty bit in the middle that is dull for 4 hrs.
Funny you mention the Swiss drivers. Here in Italy they know that they can't be ticketed by the Italian police so they drive at German Autobahn speeds.
They'll overtake on solid white lines in 50km zones with oncoming traffic, simply because they know they can't be ticketed.
They all drive BMWs and Audis, just like the idiots back home. 8)
German lane discipline is fantastic as said above getting someone travelling at 130mph makes you avoid hanging out in the fast lane.
Last year drove into Helsinki and was pissing myself as my two Finnish companions were saying how bad the traffic was, we didnt stop once or get held up at all. They are visiting later this year and will get their minds blown 😆
In France does much more freight get moved by train, if not I can't see why so few trucks are on the motorways?
I think the lack of trucks really affect people behaviour - I feel many less confident drivers over here stick to the middle and 'fast' lane because they don't want to be constantly changing lane to overtake trucks.
I love driving in France
The roads are good possibly due to better weather
Traffic is free going as mentioned lower volume of traffic. Lane control can go out of the window at peak times near Paris.
From memory France is 5 x larger than the UK with the same population but also similar road density per square mile.
French rest stops are great, apart from female toilets I am frequently reminded but even these are now very good on the proper serviced stops.
The only downside for me are the traffic lights which I confess I have missed on a couple of times. Colour blindness may not help.
Always found driving down to the Alps a pleasant thing. Driving in this country is torture.
Admittedly the weather conditions were horrific yesterday, but the M6 was was life and death stuff. So many instances where the inside lane was empty for a mile but the middle and outside lanes were rammed. Just set the cruise control to 10mph below the limit and cruise along in that inside lane overtaking when necessary. No doubt I would be the lunatic for swerving in and out of traffic rather than trundling along in the same lane...
German lane discipline is fantastic as said above getting someone travelling at 130mph makes you avoid hanging out in the fast lane.
I found the germans far worse than the french.
Sitting at 100mph+ and daring to move into the outside lane to overtake often ends up with someone trying to do the overtake from behind you at 150mph and 6 inches from your bumper with his hazards on and flashing his lights.
Germans seem to move and indicate at the same time, regardless of how big the gap. The french seem to indicate then move, giving plenty of space.
The UK is just nonsense though. I headed down to near the borders with a colleague for a funeral recently. She sat in the middle lane of the M74/M6 for 2 hours (braking when meeting a car in front of her and never moving into either the inside or outside lanes). I didn't want to say anything, but made a wee joke about it when we got back and she said "where the hell did you expect me to drive????"
Here, well we just don't [s]have the[/s] know how to use the space properly do we.
🙂
They have a weekend HGV ban.
They have a weekend HGV ban.
really? that explains a lot!
"They have a weekend HGV ban."
They have a Sunday HGV ban.
The weekend truck ban is longer from early July to mid August, when HGVs are banned from Saturday 7 a.m. to 7 p.m., and then from Saturday 10 p.m. to Sunday 10 p.m.
France seems to have more death wish boy racers than we do. Road death stats are higher than the UK afaik. As for traffic jams - hah.. yes, they DO have traffic jams around cities.. trust me.. 🙂
Anyone know the SS340 out of Lugano heading to/from Menagio on Como?
Well, it starts in Switzerland in Lugano then heads to Menagio, Italy towards Como. It's a two lane very small road running through a couple of tunnels along the lake. Well.. take it if you can at between 5-6pm on a week day where you'll find 15k mad Italians trying to get home from working in Switzerland.. The first part of the route in Switzerland is slow, mannered, then through the Customs into Italy and it's a busy day on the equivalent of an F1 start grid..
Quite shocking really how quick driving standards change in a 10k route.. 😆
Lane discipline in France is much much better than the UK. I consider myself reasonable at moving over and the French gf thinks I am terrible !
The toll roads are generally in excellent condition and relatively uncrowded as they are expensive.
If you drive a lot on non toll roads you'd find plenty of potholes. If you drive up/down on busy holiday weekends you'd find huge traffic jams, we've waited 4 hours in a jam just to pay the toll outside Lyon. Lots of speed cameras, I think the French are to speed cameras what the Brits are to CCTV.
In France does much more freight get moved by train, if not I can't see why so few trucks are on the motorways?
I think the lack of trucks really affect people behaviour - I feel many less confident drivers over here stick to the middle and 'fast' lane because they don't want to be constantly changing lane to overtake trucks.
Yes they use the railways more but the haulage companies avoid the toll roads if at all possible so all the lorries trundle around on the RN, plus as above no HGVs on many roads at the weekends.
I've driven a lot in France and it is better. I think there are a couple of reasons. It's a bigger country with a similar number of people - simply more road-space.
The pay motorways are generally pretty empty as people would prefer not pay - in particular trucks.
I also think higher speed limit and emptier roads helps with lane discipline.
Drive far enough up the M6 (Cumbria) or the toll bit and it can get quiet and folk behave themselves, those roads are in Northern France and relatively quiet, try driving into or around Paris on the periphique you'll soon encounter UK style and worse conditions..
Now if we started charging continental trucks as they come off the Ferry or out of the Tunnel a tax to help repair our roads, that would be a start.
Such a biased view from riding toll roads on a weekend.
I have spenc quite some time on french roads and driven in many countries.
French in the countryside are really nice to cyclist and often just wait behind till you signall to pass even when plenty of space and you are really slow.
These same monkies tough are horrible tailgaters on winding road with little or no overtaking opportunities and like to move back into your lane within 1m of the front of you vehicle even if its 3 times the size and 4 times the weight. They do have many road deads for a reason as well as good rally drivers. Drink and drive has gone down quite a bit because of policing as well as speeding my local friends are scared of loosing points.
About motorways don't forget that many area's are not densely populated tolls keep many a way especially the short local trippers so a lot less joining and leaving. And about your very few trucks, there are weekend bans or high trafic holiday bans for them. They are quite good at gunning it down on windy small D roads at any time of the day. Although new zealand west coast south island milk truck are still unbeatable in skills 😉
There is a general truck ban for sundays last saturday had a truck ban as well this may cloud your judgement.
The biggest difference is probably the A-roads in the North being so good - thank Napoleon for that.
rossatease - MemberNow if we started charging continental trucks as they come off the Ferry or out of the Tunnel a tax to help repair our roads, that would be a start.
Isn't there some consulation paper going on at the mo' on this??
I've done a lot of driving on the continent and very little of it is ever anywhere near as bad as the UK. The jolt to the system as soon as you're back in the UK's road network is normally significant. It always interests me to talk to people just back from their first road trip outside of the UK - such as my septuagenarian next door neighbour, who went on holiday to France for the first time the other year.
What really nixes it for us in the UK, aside from population growth, is the decades of non-investment by successive myopic governments, often using cod-science excuses for being 'anti-road'.
Forgetting other metrics, just looking at the miles of road built since 1990 is staggering and appalling:
[list][*]France: 2700[/*]
[*]Germany: 1200[/*]
[*]UK: 300[/*]
[/list]
There is now a general realisation that we need to act fast:
Easy to throw stats around though.
A denser country would not be able to fit more roads in, generally speaking, I'd have thought.
And personally I'd far rather be adapting our traffic to the roads we have than endlessly paving more countryside.
First day back at work today from 3 weeks driving across Czech, into Poland, popping into Slovakia, Austria,Hungary, Germany, Belgium and France before finally getting back to the UK on Saturday just gone. I've seen a lot of European driving in that time.
I think the worst was the more or less constant aggressive tailgating by 130mph BMW/Audi/Mercedes drivers in Germany and Austria. You have a look if it's safe, as always, pull into the outside lane to overtake, nobody around for miles, then almost instantly some twonk doing warp speed is all over your tail, honking and flashing.
Aside from those times, it was mostly pretty chilled.
Got back Saturday mid morning, and spent the next 3 hours in bumper to bumper trying to get from the M20, around to the M40.
Utter torture.
I also like how they often have flowers and that in the central reservation in Europe. Pretty innit...
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Hmmm. who broke the page formatting? everything after digga's post seems to be about 2 characters wide in the right hand margin.
[i]<mod> Fixed, sorry about that. </mod>[/i]
I think it was me throwing all them numbers about that made the forum freak out. I can't get in and edit my post now. Sorry.
I'll get me coat.
You have to remember London is a gigantic thing - not many places in the world like it. Going around the M25 is in no way comparable to buzzing across Europe. Compare London to Paris and they are both pretty mental at times. It's so big that most of the arterial routes go via it, which is clearly going to cause a traffic problem. I don't think other countries are laid out like this.