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Well during a recent delivery, a DPD driver smashed a £220 vase in our shop.
We have it on the camera as clear as day.
We submitted everything to DPD and after a few more questions and a couple of weeks, they have now responded with an instruction that we have to make a claim against the drivers insurance.
I have no interest in having to argue and haggle with an insurance company, IMO that's DPD's problem.
As I see it, my claim is against DPD not an individual agent/driver. Even if he's self employed, he's working for DPD when he caused our loss.
I have responded to DPD along those lines.
Does anyone have any idea where I stand?
As I see it, my claim is against DPD not an individual agent/driver. Even if he's self employed, he's working for DPD when he caused our loss.
"Worker" is the status of S/E Uber drivers, neither employees nor independent but “subordinate and dependent”.
That case was about minimum wage and statutory holidays, etc. but I don't know about their insurance. Your contract is shirley with DPD, rather than an individual
seems to me that your contract was with DPD, not the driver. if DPD want to recover their losses from their worker, whatever his status, thats their problem.
How would you even know who the driver was? how would you contact them?
Your contract is shirley with DPD, rather than an individual
Thinking about it, your contract is with your supplier and it's them who involved DPD. Is that any easier? (IANAL)
Is it worth involving your insurers? Claim and then they can sort it out
Surely it's the person/business who arranged the delivery/courier to follow this up, and your claim lays with them.
Aiui it's not a delivery that has got broken. While in the shop, making a delivery or collection, the DPD driver has broken a display item, correct?
It's an interesting one. They were there 'on business' so I'd assume they'd be DPDs responsibility, but the employment status of couriers is very murky. And then i think, if a courier hit your car with his van, I assume that would be for the courier to sort as I assume their van, their insurance, etc.
As said elsewhere do you actually have the driver's details? On what basis are DPD allowed to supply them to you, etc.
All that said, I'd be asking DPD directly to see the appropriate bit of their agreement that refers this liability to the driver and advising them you're holding them liable to sort it and then take it up with their driver until you're convinced they are right in where the responsibility resides.
It wasn't a delivery that got damaged. He caused the damage when making the delivery.
I have googled a bit more and it seems it's a grey area. I might have to chase the driver myself.
I have complained to DPD that I believe my claim lies with them.
Well during a recent delivery, a DPD driver smashed a £220 vase in our shop.
Firstly you'd only be able to recover your cost price of the vase (i.e. not the retail price). Dunno if it was a 220 quid piece, but just pointing this out. If you can't evidence what you paid, it'll be hard to get anything back
Nextly, it's nothing to do with the driver's insurance. I suspect whomever said that was either conflating it with motor insurance, or just trying to make you go away.
You can sue whoever you want, and that's effectively what you're going to do. Sue DPD (or the driver, or both) for damage. But it must be caused by something like (probably) negligence.
So you have CCTV coverage of it, it'll need to show the driver screwed up in some way and pranged the vase. And the vase wasn't balanced on a knife edge or in the middle of the floor. Etc. in other words, the driver didn't take enough care to make sure it was safe, and broke it as a result.
Do you have legal assistance on your commercial policy? Did you buy cover through a local broker? Might be worth asking either of those for advice.
I'd go after DPD I think. They might deflect, but as a receiver of parcels it's the company with the sign written vans who deliver it, not Joe bloggs the driver. They will likely have some sort of indemnity to principal agreement with the drivers that means the driver pays, but that doesn't stop you going after the big fish.
If you have the driver's details then you can also go after them - maybe they'll cough up first rather than have DPD get cross with them?
I don't know how big your shop is or how much money you make, but it may be just one of those things?
Final point is, if your own insurance excess is high enough you could claim off that.
Probably easier than messing about with insurance is to send DPD an invoice for the damage.
It'll either get processed by someone too busy to question it, or more likely ignored. Send a follow up letter if they ignore it, then send a pre-action letter. If they ignore that then just go to money claims online and fill in the details, it'll cost you £100 but you can add that to the claim. It won't be worth their time and effort contesting it so I expect they'll either cave at that stage or just not bother and you'll win by default and the court will order them to settle.
recover your cost price of the vase
I believe in principle the OP would be claiming the replacement cost of vase or equivalent (also meaning no need to prove purchase price).
I'd be chasing the supplier for recompense, make it their problem to chase DPD/the delivery person as appropriate. The OP paid them to deliver something, they broke stuff while doing so.
I believe in principle the OP would be claiming the replacement cost of vase or equivalent (also meaning no need to prove purchase price).
Isn't that what I said? To be very clear, if the retail price was 220, then all OP would be able to claim would be the wholesale price.
And he would need to prove that. That's how the law works - evidence of the quantum of loss.
I'd be chasing the supplier for recompense, make it their problem to chase DPD/the delivery person as appropriate. The OP paid them to deliver something, they broke stuff while doing so.
Absolutely not. This is nothing to do with whoever sent the thing being sent by DPD.
Look up the meaning of proximate cause - the DPD bod was a novus interveniens and there is zero relationship between the vase and the sender.
Same as if a random customer came in to the shop and broke the vase. Would you chase their parents? Or the doctor who birthed them?
What a fantastic question. My gut reaction is that
I have no interest in having to argue and haggle with an insurance company,
this is what insurance companies are for. You notify your insurance company and then they decide whether to pay out or chase someone else.
Past that there's a lot of What Ifs. What if the driver broke something when in your employ to collect something / in someone else's employ to deliver something / were on their lunch and just came in for a browse? What do you do when a random customer breaks something?
DPD as a company will surely have liability insurance and, therefore, won't care. Sic your insurer onto theirs.
Sic your insurer onto theirs.
But if the loss is less than the excess (which is probably the case here) then op's insurance won't get involved.
This is going to come down to - can the OP be arsed.
He caused the damage when making the delivery.
Then (I think?) contractually, he's just a bloke. I wouldn't have confidence here, but I'd be weighing up "DPD sent him to my shop" with "he came into my shop."
The crux, in my head, is that you do not have a working relationship with either this person or this company. You paid a supplier to hire a delivery company who employed a driver to deliver something, that's the accountability trail. I don't see how you can hold DPD responsible directly, either you go up to the seller and back down again, or he's just a clumsy customer.
Or, you know, insurance. 😁
But if the loss is less than the excess (which is probably the case here) then op's insurance won't get involved.
Which is a problem of inadequate insurance. If you don't want to be £200 out of pocket then you pay a premium which covers that.
Back at my old office, our regular courier (DPD, oddly enough) lost a router worth about twenty grand. It wasn't insured. I went nuts with Logistics, turned out that it was more cost-effective just to never insure and take the hit on the occasional £20k loss.
Here this feels like a point of pride. Which I get, I'd be the same. But then your options are to involve insurers or suck it up, DPD is just going to tell you to sod off.
I think.
Isn't that what I said?
No, not at all. The replacement cost may now be rather higher, or lower.
You don't get the purchase price of the car that you bought new 5y ago when someone crashes into you. You get a like-for-like replacement, or some approximation to it. And you don't need a receipt on the original, you need to argue that it's currently worth X.
If you paid 5 quid for the vase and then discovered it to be a ming original worth thousands, you're owed the thousands it was worth, not the fiver you paid.
DPD are liable. Not the sender. But DPD insist that their drivers take out (and pay for) their own insurance (not just van insurance) for this kind of thing. It’s up to whoever insures the items in your shop to take the next step. Contact them.
It’s a tricky one.
If the DPD driver was buying a coffee in a shop, because he was thirsty, then if he broke something it’s on him.
But he was carrying out his duties as part of DPD when he broke the vase. Does that count for nothing? If i paid for double glazing and during the installation they broke a vase would we say that this was between me and the contractor?
You don't get the purchase price of the car that you bought new 5y ago when someone crashes into you. You get a like-for-like replacement, or some approximation to it. And you don't need a receipt on the original, you need to argue that it's currently worth X.
If you paid 5 quid for the vase and then discovered it to be a ming original worth thousands, you're owed the thousands it was worth, not the fiver you paid.
This is a business, not a personal lines policy.
When a retailer sells something, it includes an element of profit. So if that thing is damaged before sale, it's the wholesale price that's relevant.
If it were a motor dealer, and a car on its forecourt was destroyed, it cannot claim what it would have sold the car for - only what it paid for it (and some costs like transport to the site).
The crux, in my head, is that you do not have a working relationship with either this person or this company.
That doesn't matter. Look up the neighbour principle.in Donahue v Stevenson which is a lead case in negligence and remoteness of cause.
The neighbour principle is the foundational legal doctrine establishing a duty of care in negligence. It dictates that you must take reasonable care to avoid acts or omissions that could foreseeably injure anyone closely and directly affected by your actions.
So we all have a duty to take care of anyone else. No working relationship (or anything else) is needed.
Even a trespasser is entitled to protection against negligence, for example, under the Occupiers Liability Act.
The DPD person has a duty of care to not trash the vase. But OP is asking who to pursue, the driver or DPD.
DPD are liable. Not the sender. But DPD insist that their drivers take out (and pay for) their own insurance (not just van insurance) for this kind of thing.
How do you figure?
I'm not arguing, I'm interested to learn.
The DPD person has a duty of care to not trash the vase. But OP is asking who to pursue, the driver or DPD.
Yeah, which is the thread I was pulling at. Is DPD liable because they're DPD? Or is the driver personally liable?
Some random oik has a duty of care to not trash the vase. So does a raccoon. How do we break this down?
Was the DPD driver challenged at the time of smashing the vase?
Was the driver negligent? Did you take adequate steps to ensure the vase was unlikely to be knocked? You use the word smashed but you need to show a level of negligence and that you’ve applied reasonable due care.
i think you’ll struggle with this one frankly and we are talking £220 Retail price so is this really a hill you want to die on?
How do you figure?
Which bit?
DPD’s terms of use say they are liable.
Lots of insurance companies offer packages to drivers specifically to cover what DPD mandate they have.
Your insurance company knows how to talk to other insurance companies, you don’t, go to them.
You can only claim on your own insurance, not someone else’s. If the value is too small to be worth bothering your own insurer, it’s certainly not worth trying to chase other ones that you don’t pay.
The OP hasn't responded after posting. Given average hourly pay rates there's probably already been £220 (minus margin) worth of time expended on this. 😂
If £200 is the ticket price, it’s value is minus vat and markup.
Is it really worth bothering ?
Possibly some light bedtime reading.
Well the wholesale price is about £90. Not a huge amount but it's better in my pocket than smashed across the floor of the shop.
Also, for a small amount, I can't be arsed arguing with the driver's insurance company and think DPD should do it. However, as I posted earlier, it seems to be a grey area about who to chase.
As insurance costs are increasing at about 10% year on year, I have a £300 excess or so, to keep costs down.
The reason the vase was smashed, was that he was carrying 2 large boxes and couldn't see where he was going, It can clearly be seen on the CCTV.
If DPD say they're not interested, I'll chase the drivers insurers but if they dick me about, then I'l just leave it.
Post the CCTV on DPDs social media with the Chuckle Brothers theme tune.
I'd file this in the 'shit happens' outbox and move on.
I'd file this in the 'shit happens' outbox and move on.
While that's a practical and probably cost effective solution, there's an element of me that thinks 'but it's just not right'. Whether it's the courier's fault for not being careful enough, the courier firm for having screwed down their often self employed couriers where they can't be careful / bring the large boxes in separately because there isn't enough time in their drops per day, or even the OP's for having the breakables in the pathway - somewhere this shouldn't happen.
Surely delivery contracts are implicit that they don't trash stuff on the way....I'd be livid if for example I bought an appliance and in delivering it their sack truck put a scratch in my car as they wheeled it up the path only to be told 'we only agreed to bring you a washing machine in good order so we've fulfilled our bit'
I do find these complicated liabilities fascinating (I know, get a life)
Also, for a small amount, I can't be arsed arguing with the driver's insurance company and think DPD should do it. However, as I posted earlier, it seems to be a grey area about who to chase.
As insurance costs are increasing at about 10% year on year, I have a £300 excess or so, to keep costs down.
"Who to chase" is your insurer, but the value of loss is less than what you factored in as an acceptable excess. You can't be arsed dealing with anyone else so... 🤷♂️ I think at best you're into "gesture of goodwill" territory. In the scenario you describe, is it in DPD's interests to do anything at all?
I don't really understand where "the driver's insurer" comes from. The driver isn't going to have his own personal liability insurance in addition to what's provided by DPD, is he? Does DPD use self-employed drivers?
Does DPD use self-employed drivers?
Yep - one DPD driver delivers smaller parcels around my way in his Nissan Micra. I sometimes get 3 different DPD drivers in a day - one in his car, one in a transit van and one in a truck.
Owner drivers is how they squeeze every bit of profit from the business.
While that's a practical and probably cost effective solution, there's an element of me that thinks 'but it's just not right'. Whether it's the courier's fault for not being careful enough, the courier firm for having screwed down their often self employed couriers where they can't be careful / bring the large boxes in separately because there isn't enough time in their drops per day, or even the OP's for having the breakables in the pathway - somewhere this shouldn't happen.
Surely delivery contracts are implicit that they don't trash stuff on the way....I'd be livid if for example I bought an appliance and in delivering it their sack truck put a scratch in my car as they wheeled it up the path only to be told 'we only agreed to bring you a washing machine in good order so we've fulfilled our bit'
I do find these complicated liabilities fascinating (I know, get a life)
That's an interesting take. You're right I think.
You buy (say) a dishwasher from AO, AO's delivery people gouge your front door, you'd contact AO to seek redress because - critically - that's who you paid money to and that's who you have a contract with. So if AO instead contracted DPD to deliver they goods you'd still contact AO to make good, for the same reasoning. You have no relationship with DPD.
So in the OP's case, the answer isn't DPD, or the driver, or some random insurer we have no details of. It's whoever he ordered the delivery from. He gave someone money to send him stuff, that's the answer isn't it. "I bought something from you and now I have a broken vase."
You buy (say) a dishwasher from AO, AO's delivery people gouge your front door, you'd contact AO to seek redress because - critically - that's who you paid money to and that's who you have a contract with. So if AO instead contracted DPD to deliver they goods you'd still contact AO to make good, for the same reasoning. You have no relationship with DPD
I disagree. If you received a letter and the postie broke the vase you wouldn't go after whoever wrote the letter, or the postman. You'd ask the manager at the local sorting office to buy you a new vase
A letter's different though, although not sure why in law. In my layman's eyes, a letter is unsolicited, I suppose, the person posting it is contracting the PO to deliver it, you haven't formed any contract for the delivery of something with the person who sent it, they have no obligation or liability to you and v/v. But in the end the postman broke the vase so they have to pay for it, it's just you're now having to deal with them.
If you buy a washing machine, the contract includes delivery and a presumed part of that is without knocking your garden wall down with their van in the process, and if they do 'they' (the company that agreed to sell AND DELIVER you a washing machine) have failed in that. Up to them to sort you out and then sort the wall demolisher out to recoup their loss.
Like I say, absolutely fascinating from a thought exercise PoV.
This has gone a lot further than I thought!
I still haven't had a response from DPD to yesterdays email, so I don't know if they are going tell me to jog on or sort it out.
Nothing to back it up, but I think this is on the specific driver who broke the vase, you claim against them and they either pay for it themselves or use liability insurance they have taken out.
I disagree. If you received a letter and the postie broke the vase you wouldn't go after whoever wrote the letter, or the postman. You'd ask the manager at the local sorting office to buy you a new vase
Why would a postman be inside the shop?
A company's liability would, I would presume, cover their staff in their daily activities. No? A postie clomping about inside a shop would exceed that. I'd expect the manager at the local sorting office to tell you to bugger off. How, in this hypothesis, is the postie any different from a random customer?
(I ask this for discussion rather than argument. I have no idea here. As Jon says, it's a fascinating question.)
postman often go into businesses to drop letters at the counter, till, reception, that's part of the service. Even then could still damage property (bag or trolley damaging a car for example) without actually coming inside. None of which would be a postman exceeding their daily activity in my mind.
This has gone a lot further than I thought!
It really isn't. A lot of people aren't reading the earlier replies and are going over the same ground. Quelle surprise.
I wonder what the liability and discussion would be if the postman entered a property to 'deliver a package' to the Mrs upstairs and in doing so knocked over a vase in the hallway?
Does the sorting office need to hear about these things, and whose responsibility is any subsequent obligation?
I wonder what the liability and discussion would be if the postman entered a property to 'deliver a package' to the Mrs upstairs and in doing so knocked her up in the hallway?
I've seen videos like these. But it's normally a plumber.
