[Closed] Double dip recession

Ok so its the impact of the threat of the cuts, I get it.

So in £s how big is the difference between the Tory cuts and the Labour ones (or as a % of GDP)? Would it be better if Labour were in power and by how much?

I don't know because as far as I'm aware Labour haven't had the balls to actually specifically say what they would have done differently.

.

A-A so which idiot was keeping his eye on the budget, All those teachers were losing their jobs, how come eduction spending went up 9% in the last two years. Where was all that going?

swedishmatt - Member

4. Globalisation

pmsl - would you like to be a little less specific?

anagallis_arvensis - Member
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-17840447

cuts what cuts?

CaptJon - Member
swedishmatt - Member
4. Globalisation

yeah that's a real lol one that isn't it. I'll let you stew on that. Think about it real hard.

The thing I think most of you are missing is that it is the 'Master of the Universe' that are actually causing all this pain, not Governments. Tory, Labour whatever persuasion as things currently stand.

Banks, Financial Institutuions caused the pain and have yet to repair their balance sheets and restore their confidence to such a point where they'll loan sufficient funds for the private sector to deliver what is required.(It's easier to make paper money from money speculating on and driving up commodity prices)

I've always said, there's no one like the Tories to really stick a recession to us steep and deep and saw this coming from the moment they got in, however they have been a tad silly here and there. They need Tax Receipts, putting vat up aint a way to increase Vat receipts in a recession, the other lot had a better idea dropping it to 15%, they should do that now if they want to kick things int action on the consumer front.

Having said that, none of us in the Private Sector can get the funds we need from our Banks and neither can our customers, whilst we are also being absolutely screwed with charges and scams from them that would make your eyes water if I took to anecdotal evidence of this.

So whoever it was that wrote the system is ****ed, about sums it up. There's been a programme running on Mon Nights explaining how it was Grocer Heath that initially caused all this, how and why during the seventies, Thatcher only exacted a bit of revenge on the unions during her bit and Blair and Brown just wanted to be a bit like her, whilst making themselves and their cronies wealthy or at least appear to be in bed with the city.

So, if you want to blame anyone, it is the city and those poor saps are no longer in control of their own destinys, since big bang and the subsequent computerisation of their system with complicated algorythms that have an intelligence and what is worse, a perception all of their own.

The markets are driving Governments, they've decided the Euro is ****ed and so it will eventually be, the collapse of it is going to screw us all so badly I can't dare to look over the edge of that particular abyss.

Politicians? They are but children with loaded guns, all pointed at us, I seriously don't see any competence from ether of the two main parties and even if they were, their hands are tied by the City Masters of the Universe, oh and Basle Agreements that they pay lip service to when it suits them. (i.e. loaning money to the likes of us, so we can employ more of those of you that do work for small enterprises, so that together we can generate more money upon which to pay tax to them.)

Sweddishmat do you have a point or have you just learnt to bold stuff.

Teamhurt more.. I believe heads are getting ready. We bave had 2 redundancies at our school and i dont think that due to not keeping an eye on the budget, I think its due to knowing what the future budget will be.

Erm.... I hate to say this, but in pre-general election Nick Clegg stylee... I agree with Derek. 😯

Derek, could you just add in a comment about summary execution or something, so I can resume normal service by vehemently disagreeing with you. Cheers!

anagallis_arvensis - Member
Sweddishmat do you have a point or have you just learnt to bold stuff.

Teamhurt more.. I believe heads are getting ready. We bave had 2 redundancies at our school and i dont think that due to not keeping an eye on the budget, I think its due to knowing what the future budget will be.

Derekrides: Are you for real?

"I've always said, there's no one like the Tories to really stick a recession to us steep and deep and saw this coming from the moment they got in, however they have been a tad silly here and there. They need Tax Receipts, putting vat up aint a way to increase Vat receipts in a recession, the other lot had a better idea dropping it to 15%, they should do that now if they want to kick things int action on the consumer front.
"

Do you not acknowledge that the coffers were run bare long before that, and that's there's something called a global economic crisis, that I know labour liked to say "that started in America". Not at all acknowledging that they pretty much spent spent spent their way into massive debt.

binners - Member
Erm.... I hate to say this, but in pre-general election Nick Clegg stylee... I agree with Derek.

Derek, could you just add in a comment about summary execution or something, so I can resume normal service by vehemently disagreeing with you. Cheers!

What like anyone who receives 217 times more than his work force as a chief executive should be sumararily executed as an example to the others, then maybe they'd stop their excessive pay whilst we suffer?

Yep, I think that's the only thing that might stop them, any volunteers/ Pop a cap in that Diamond blokes ass as a starter?

I wish Labour won the last election. Truly. They would have been stuck with this great unf-cuk and the population couldn't blame anyone but the incompetents themselves.

swedishmatt - Member
Derekrides: Are you for real?

Yes sadly I am, worked through the 3 day week that Grocer Heath brought upon us, suffered the raging inflation of the seventies (You really should watch that seventies programme it gives a good insight into how this all started) I lost a bunch of money in the crash of 87, watched my sister in law experience negative equity brought about by an idiot Tory Chancellor boiling the porperty market by announcing the ending of double tax allowances or something in 89 was it, I forget. I was exposed to the tune of 700,000 deutchmarks on black wednesday when another Tory Chancellor ****ed up and we crashed out of the exchange rate mechanism, you couldn't even get through to a bank that day, they all pulled the phone line plug and let the £ crash, I lost thousands.

OK they did recover eventually and Ken Clarke handed Brown and Blair a pretty sound economy in the mid nineties and they took ten years to **** it up, so logic says it will take ten years to un **** it.

swedishmatt

The amount of debt on it's own is pretty meaningless (in terms of cost), apart from being a good scare tactic.

UK debt maturity is longer than the countries you alluded to, which means it costs us less to service and will be longer before we need to refinance.

As maturing bonds need to be refinanced, a heavily front-loaded distribution profile brings with it a high risk, as any big jump in interest rates will much more swiftly translate into a higher interest burden for short-term borrowers, than for longer-term borrowers.

and

According to the Debt Management Office, the average maturity of UK sovereign debt is 14 years. In the US, it’s about four years. In France and Germany it’s six or seven. Greek debt has an average maturity of just under 8 years. As I mentioned yesterday, they have about 10% of their debt coming due in the next few months.

That makes an enormous difference to the amount of gilts we need to ask the debt markets to buy in a given year. It also means that even fairly large increases in funding costs will only have a gradual effect on the cost of servicing UK debt. That burden is still lower today, as a share of total spending, than it was for most of the 1980s and 1990s.

For Greece, debt servicing costs now account for just under 12% of GDP. In the UK, it’s costing less than 3% of GDP.

wot about all those numpties who re-mortgaed their property because of the preceived equity?

All the cheap finance, have your material fix NOW and pay later at 29.9% APR. Would you like some PPI insurance as well........

The personal greed of the masses also played it's significant part in the position we find ourselves in. The second highest personal debt ratio in the world.

http://www.thinkmoney.com/debt/news/uk-has-second-highest-debt-to-gdp-ratio-in-the-world-0-5151.htm

Derek:

Banks, Financial Institutuions caused the pain and have yet to repair their balance sheets and restore their confidence to such a point where they'll loan sufficient funds for the private sector to deliver what is required.

Slowmart:

The personal greed of the masses also played it's significant part in the position we find ourselves in. The second highest personal debt ratio in the world.

Swedishmatt:

they pretty much spent spent spent their way into massive debt.

So, can we all agree then that at every level of society everyone spent more than they had and then found they were not able to pay it back?

OK they did recover eventually and Ken Clarke handed Brown and Blair a pretty sound economy in the mid nineties and they took ten years to * it up, so logic says it will take ten years to un * it.

you mean the economy that was even more dependent on financial services and the finite oil revenue and books bouyed from the utilities sell off and that great tory invention- pension holidays?

So, can we all agree then that at every level of society everyone spent more than they had and then found they were not able to pay it back?

I didn't.

swedishmatt - Member
I wish Labour won the last election. Truly. They would have been stuck with this great unf-cuk and the population couldn't blame anyone but the incompetents themselves.

Which of their fiscal policies did Cameron and Osborne so vehemently oppose while labour were in power?

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/investing/gold/7511589/Explain-why-you-sold-Britains-gold-Gordon-Brown-told.html ]One of many.[/url]

So, can we all agree then that at every level of society everyone spent more than they had and then found they were not able to pay it back?

Me neither. During the last 10 years I've been saving to keep myself and my family safe.

kimbers - Member

that great tory invention- pension holidays?

Golden Brown loved that shizz too

Just seeing his face........by god I hate Gordon ****ing Brown.

coffeeking - Member
One of many.

😆

They weren't even in the shadow cabinet when he was selling off gold reserves ffs!

swedishmatt - Member
yeah that's a real lol one that isn't it. I'll let you stew on that. Think about it real hard.

I don't have to think real hard about it. I can imagine any number of factors influencing the economy that might be put under the heading of globalisation, hence my request for you to be more specific.

Some come on Toryboys -0 what are you going to do to get us out of this mess. Keynesian policies ( according to you ) are wrong, Its clear the austerity programme is wrong - what are you going to do?

Not one of you has had the balls to actualy put anything forward

A-A. Good luck. Hope the redundancies don't affect you. But my real point in all of this is that the politics (while fun for mischief makers) is largely meaningless. Blaming Tory cuts for the past is sloppy analysis at best, BS at worse. Government spending has risen in money and real terms throughout the Tory's period in office. Plus the real gap between Tory and Labour party spending comes in at best at 0.5% of GDP. So politicising all of this is essentially nonense. Hence you get a Labour sympathiser writing as he did in the FT today. It will be as absurd to praise the gov for positive noise around a dull trend and it is to criticise them for negative noise. Politicians react to economic events far more than drive them.

What Davies is missing is the bigger crime of the Tories and that is the cut in government investment. The current expenditure gets all the headlines as it directly affects people in health, education etc. But as yet, spending cuts have hardly started.

But, and its a big but, the area where the government SHOULD be getting more flack is on investment. Unlike the higher profile current expenditure programs, investment FELL 14% last year and forecast at -4% this year. Why are people not up in arms about this. Too long term? But public investment often underpins private investment spending which both lead to growth. But sadly, this is not being given the attention it deserves.

Derek +1 on diamond. Bloody Barc put friends out of business recently and as CEO he still employs most of the capital in a group that delivers returns below its cost of capital. And thinks that he is worth £ms. Absurd. And then the masters/monkeys of the universe at RBS announce a reverse stock split today to cosmetically adjust the share price back to a higher level in the notion that it will fool people cosmetically. More smokes and mirrors from our glorious banks

Not one of you has had the balls to actualy put anything forward

swedishmatt - Member
I wish Labour won the last election. Truly. They would have been stuck with this great unf-cuk and the population couldn't blame anyone but the incompetents themselves

Speaking of financial incompetents, wasn't Cameron Norman Lamont's right hand man during Black Wednesday?

Grum, coffeeking - excuse my use of the word "everyone". I revise that to "the vast majority" as there are some people who didn't go debt crazy when there was a lot of freely avaiilable credit around, and the temptation to buy a hell of a lot of stuff we don't need with it.

come on the gold reserves sell off thing was vastly overinflated by the torry press and plenty of people love trotting it out, because they have been convinced its a heinous crime

when gb announced the sell off gold was at a high, (his mistake was announcing he was about to do it which led to a drop in prices as everyone waited for the gold to hit the markets- not very clever but it wasnt at alow when he sold it)
also even though it was a chunk of the reserves (a 3rd?) it still only amounts to a fraction (1% ? )of our overall debt
and ultimately it never cost the country anything, it was sitting there not doing much and still would be if he hadnt sold it, of course osborne could never sell off any more because its been made out to be such a dreadful thing

If you read the article properly, which you haven't by the looks of things, you would see that there are not actually fewer teachers as a whole in the UK by 10.000 or whatever the figure was, but rather that there are fewer publically hired teachers, as more teachers are in the private sector in academies. So what you referred to as "cuts" aren't quite that based on that article. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Your wrong. Academies are still public sector. I used to work in one.
The article, if you read it properly quotes some tory no mark who says, whilst apparently giving no numbers, that the losses are within local LEA's with teaching consultants for want of a better word. I doubt there are 10 000 of these people in thecountry.

Your ignorance and confidence levels are still well out of alignment.

swedishmatt - Member
I wish Labour won the last election. Truly. They would have been stuck with this great unf-cuk and the population couldn't blame anyone but the incompetents themselve

his mistake was announcing he was about to do it which led to a drop in prices as everyone waited for the gold to hit the markets

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

it was sitting there not doing much

wrecker - Member

"Am i allowed to post on this thread as a non big hitter though?"

This was the initiation. TJ and Ernie will be emailing you with your membership details shortly.

Don't be so modest wrecker, you little rascal you. As someone who likes to hit two or three times more threads than me on the chat forum, I can only aspire to achieving your impressive record as a Big Hitter.

This will be now my fourth thread in 24 hours, compared to your nine threads.

*swoons at the thought of wrecker's Big Hitter awesomeness*

anagallis_arvensis: apologies, I should have written "not funded by the council" and not private sector.

What do you teach?

Some come on Toryboys -0 what are you going to do to get us out of this mess. Keynesian policies ( according to you ) are wrong, Its clear the austerity programme is wrong - what are you going to do?

Not one of you has had the balls to actualy put anything forward

Typical response from someone who offers nothing constructive yet will criticise those who endeavour to remedy the situation.

How ironic. Help me....me me me

Why is the austerity wrong? Income to expenditure has to balance. On a narrow view that we have entered a double dip? The remedy in whatever form will taste foul long after it's gone.

Don't be so modest wrecker, you little rascal you. As someone who likes to hit two or three times more threads than me on the chat forum, I can only aspire to achieving your impressive record as a Big Hitter.

This will be now my fourth thread in 24 hours, compared to your nine threads.

*swoons at the thought of wrecker's Big Hitter awesomeness*

it was sitting there not doing much

Apart from quadrupling in value in the last 10 years.

which would help the uk how?

and

The advance notice of the substantial sales drove the price of gold down by 10% by the time of the first auction on 6 July 1999.

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sale_of_UK_gold_reserves,_1999-2002 ]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sale_of_UK_gold_reserves,_1999-2002[/url]

kimbers - Member

come on the gold reserves sell off thing was vastly overinflated by the torry press and plenty of people love trotting it out, because they have been convinced its a heinous crime

when gb announced the sell off gold was at a high, (his mistake was announcing he was about to do it which led to a drop in prices as everyone waited for the gold to hit the markets- not very clever but it wasnt at alow when he sold it)
also even though it was a chunk of the reserves (a 3rd?) it still only amounts to a fraction (1% ? )of our overall debt
and ultimately it never cost the country anything, it was sitting there not doing much and still would be if he hadnt sold it, of course osborne could never sell off any more because its been made out to be such a dreadful thing

google "the brown bottom"

 

What do you teach?

Kids

ok slowmart what would you do with the gold sell it now?

slowmart

Why is the austerity wrong?

Because it makes the problem worse

Reduced tax recepits

Increased benefit bills

Reduced economic activity

= increasing debt,

Good work toryboys BTW - diverting this from a discussion of the failure of the tory economic policy to a discussion on selling some of the gold reserves.

By increasing the value of BoE reserves