[Closed] Double dip recession

Didn't this financial crisis come about through a lot of very [s]clever[/s] overpaid people making very stupid decisions and taking advantage of even more stupider people?

EDIT:

Surely we don't want an expensive Pound as that makes our exports less competitive and just encourages us to buy stuff from abroad.

Unfortunately when this is tried the selfish unions try and put a stop to it.

It's been a while since the unions have been blamed for the state of the economy, so well done don simon for so creatively linking "selfish unions" with the double-dip recession Britain is now experiencing.

If only selfless industrialists and bankers were allowed to run the country instead of greedy trade unions eh ?

It's been a while since the unions have been blamed for the state of the economy, so well done don simon for so creatively linking "selfish unions" with the double-dip recession Britain is now experiencing.

If only selfless industrialists and bankers were allowed to run the country instead of greedy trade unions eh ?

DS your trolls and subsequent defence are rather obvious [resist the denial

How can I put a "twist" on what you say don simon - it's there in black and white.

You have very clearly said that Britain needs to lower costs to be more competitive, but that unfortunately when this is tried the selfish unions try to put a stop to it. If that isn't linking the trade unions with the state of the economy then I don't know what is.

I don't think pointing out the absurdity of trying to blame the trade unions for the state of the economy makes me look smart......perhaps it's more a case of you feeling stupid ?

EDIT FOR ERNESTO: I also assume that that is some witty snipe at my beliefs, yet you have no idea what my beliefs are except that I believe unions have priced the UK out of the competition.

yeah we'd be much better off if we were more like china or something. Or the usa or er... Trying to think of a good example....

Troll? Can a person not offer a different view without being accused of trolling?
Is it OK to slag off the bankers and the bosses yet not to say anything against the trade unions?
The lady doth protest me thinks?
Might I suggest you do a bit of reading on Ricardo Semler before simply accusing me of trolling.
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29 ]

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion

Is it OK to slag off the bankers and the bosses yet not to say anything against the trade unions?

You can say what you like about trade unions, but when you apportion blame on them for the state of the economy on a thread about double-dip recession, then expect to be challenged. Or more likely, ridiculed.

Or more likely, ridiculed.

yes it is proper on topic and now i have read the wiki link you have so changed my mind. Yes you believe what you are saying, it is highly relevant and we should discuss to what extent the powerful unions have caused and stifled the recovery...what issue should we start with then?
Lighting strikes?
The General strike?
Flying Pickets?
Walkouts without votes?
national unrest?

God really where should we start ...thanks for reminding us all

EDIT: no myu mistake can we pin dance about what the word "Are you saying that unions have zero responsibilty on the economic crisis" zero means in this sentence.

i have seen nothing credible that argues that the cause of the current economic crisis has anything to do with the unions...I would remind you of germany which is much more Unionised than here so
yada yadda

You are cpt flash and I claim my £5

I cant be arsed DS but I am sure someone will

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9049505/Days-lost-to-strikes-hit-20-year-high.html ]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9049505/Days-lost-to-strikes-hit-20-year-high.html[/url]

if you take out the public sector striking over pensions [ after all they make f all and contribute nothing to the economy iirc] what do the figures say then?

oh I then read your link it syas pretty much that...so its the unions and the public sector wot done it....yes you got me now I really cannot beat this faultless logic...still I am more bored than you off to build wheel ...enjoy the games

Anyone who thinks the Tories got us into a recession is naive IMO. Equally if we think a Labour government would see us with growth - equally naive.

We're not as rich as we thought we were - it was all based on debt remember.
Developing countries have seen us get rich and wealthy on the back of postwar growth and are now, as they see it, straightening things out. And why not?

This isn't a short term recession which we;ll come out of next year, back to what we got used to, or even a lost decade. It's a long overdue IMO rebalancing of wealth and power in the world - we industrialised first and got first mover advantage, that's all.

Instead of giving other countries aid, we'll trade with them. They'll get richer. Doesn't mean we get poorer, prob just more equal.

It's called globalisation. No political party or political ideology/dogma is likely to produce a better way of dealing with it IMO... it's too big, too fundamental

Those who have most to gain from the status quo - politicians, bankers, chief execs, union leaders etc etc are unhappy about this - they quite like the wealth, power and status they have (who wouldn't?) they're scared of an equalisation, so I wouldn't listen to anything they have to say, they're scared and trying to stop the inevitable change coming thru...

Just accept we're not going to go back to the economic growth we've got used to all our lives... no bad thing IMO, maybe we'll be a nicer society for it...

if you take out the public sector striking over pensions [ after all they make f all and contribute nothing to the economy iirc] what do the figures say then?

yes you got me now I really cannot beat this faultless logic.

Are you saying that unions have zero responsibilty on the economic crisis?

Er yes - zero responsibility for the economic crisis. It wasn't the trade unions who caused the global credit crunch, they didn't demand the deregulation of the finance sector, they didn't encourage incompetence by greedy bankers, they didn't ask for lower wages so that their members would have to rely on easy credit to make ends meet, they didn't push up the price of housing through speculation, they didn't demand that government contracts go to foreign companies with the loss of UK skills, they are not responsible for overproduction and underconsumption, they haven't demanded job cuts which only contribute to growing doles queues, in fact, without trade unions the economy would be in a worse place, as the minute influence they have does put a slight brake on otherwise rampant free-market capitalism.

That companies are queueing up to put manufacturing bases here becasue the unions won't pull the workforce out on strike?

Go on then - tell me.......when was the last significant strike in Britain's manufacturing sector.

EDIT : Actually on reflection the trade unions do indeed have some responsibility, in that they didn't do enough to oppose the disastrous neoliberal policies which got us into this mess. Not even when Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were in power, when they shamefully did nothing to stop the pair carrying on with the neoliberal experiment.

Go on then - tell me.......when was the last significant strike in Britain's manufacturing sector.

Er yes - zero responsibility for the economic crisis. It wasn't the trade unions who caused the global credit crunch, they didn't demand the deregulation of the finance sector, they didn't encourage incompetence by greedy bankers, they didn't ask for lower wages so that their members would have to rely on easy credit to make ends meet, they didn't push up the price of housing through speculation, they didn't demand that government contracts go to foreign companies with the loss of UK skills, they are not responsible for overproduction and underconsumption, they haven't demanded job cuts which only contribute to growing doles queues, in fact, without trade unions the economy would be in a worse place, as the minute influence they have does put a slight brake on otherwise [b]rampant free-market capitalism[/b].

Just accept we're not going to go back to the economic growth we've got used to all our lives... no bad thing IMO, maybe we'll be a nicer society for it...

If it wasn't for the fact that our society is reaching new levels of inequality (which has numerous knock on harmful effects on society), then maybe.

Just popped my head round the door. Ah we're still going.

I get the impression that uponthedowns believes there is no alternative. And to be fair he's not alone, the TINA mantra has been widely accepted for a long time, getting as it does almost unchallenged supremacy in the media. And in essence, support from all three main political parties. The Labour Party's position is not fundamentally different, they just would do what the Tories are doing but at a slightly slower speed and with a slightly different emphasis.

Thanks for those sensible words Ernie. For some reason there's someone around here who thinks that anyone who disagrees with him must be a "swivel eyed" Tory. As you have pointed out I could be a Labour supporter and still have come to the same conclusion.

Do you only work in absolutes?

I have to work on what you give me, and this is what you gave me :

[i]"That companies are queueing up to put manufacturing bases here becasue the unions won't pull the workforce out on strike?"[/i]

You are very clearly claiming that companies are not putting "manufacturing bases here" because of the risk of strike action. For me to ask you "when was the last significant strike in Britain's manufacturing sector?" therefore is perfectly reasonable.

I only asked for "the last" significant strike in Britain's manufacturing sector, an easy enough request I would have thought. The fact that you don't immediately give me a single example and instead rely on retorting "Do you only work in absolutes" shows how desperately weak or non-existent your argument is.

I only asked for "the last" significant strike in Britain's manufacturing sector, an easy enough request I would have thought. The fact that you don't immediately give me a single example and instead rely on retorting "Do you only work in absolutes" shows how desperately weak or non-existent your argument is.

"That companies are queueing up to put manufacturing bases here becasue the unions won't pull the workforce out on significant strikes?"

....there's someone around here who thinks that anyone who disagrees with him must be a "swivel eyed" Tory

Agreed......he needs to be kept in check sometimes 🙂

That's quite clever ernesto and I do see what you did, because I didn't say...

OK I'm bored now. You're having to resort to claiming that you didn't say things which you said, despite the fact that I copied and pasted it, including the spelling mistake, from your post.

[b]Significant[/b]?
Why do you want info on the "last significant" strike when I was talking in general terms?

cough.. wasnt it the unions who bank rolled the govt before and during the start of this crisis? wasnt it the unions who had two thirds of the vote in deciding who the countries leader should be when blair stood aside and democracy was swept aside? wasnt it the unions who drove expansion of the public sector to record levels? was nt it the unions who insisted that the NHS should grow its budget by inflation busting amounts every year leading it to become the 5th biggest employer in the world?
we ALL contributed to the current issues we ALL wanted everything and we wanted it now and we ALL had no corries of how it was going to be paid for.
we ALL democratically elected a new parliament and two parties joined together to govern
it wont be over by tea time it wont be over by Xmas but what goes around comes around and we ll ALL benifit when it does if we ALL accept our part in it.

With regard to demanding job cuts, are you saying that pushing up costs isn't likely to result in job cuts during a crisis?
Are you saying that the new found wealth that the unions got the workforce didn't drive demand in the housing market?
Are you saying that Govt contracts went abroad because they were more expensive?

Have to agree with Ernie here. The unions didn't have anything to do with the financial crisis.

Plenty of people at least in the private sector have taken pay cuts and reduced hours to preserve jobs which has been remarkably successful compared to previous recessions.

Increased pay did not drive up house prices- cheap credit did.

You might have a point on Government contracts I don't know but I suspect loss of a few government contracts is not a significant cause of recession.

don simon - Member

Significant?
Why do you want info on the "last significant" strike when I was talking in general terms?

Forget it mate - you are obviously not going to back up your wild allegation. And instead attempt to squirm, backtrack, and play word games.

wasnt it the unions who drove expansion of the public sector to record levels? was nt it the unions who insisted that the NHS should grow its budget by inflation busting amounts every year leading it to become the 5th biggest employer in the world?

I'm pretty sure Gordon Brown managed that all by himself whilst Chancellor.

Forget it mate - you are obviously not going to back up your wild allegation. And instead attempt to squirm, backtrack, and play word games.

Yeah right OK.

Increased pay did not drive up house prices- cheap credit did.

to say that one party is 100% with responsibilty is completely absurd

😀 That made me LOL !

Obviously I realise that you're taking the piss after claiming that your words have been "twisted", still made me laugh though 8)

I think this page and this quote from Junkyard says a lot.

I would remind you of germany which is much more Unionised than here so

In Germany the relationship between the Unions and Management is not adversarial as it is here. Union representatives sit on the board so have input before issues come to a head rather than reacting after decisions have been made.

The 'unions are satan'/'unions are saviours' discussion is a massive waste of effort.

are you saying that pushing up costs isn't likely to result in job cuts during a crisis?

[img] [/img]
In the last year alone executive pay in FTSE 100 companies grew by 49%.
chief execs must be bricking it then

Are you saying that Govt contracts went abroad because they were more expensive?

There is no middle ground with you, is there?

Plenty of people at least in the private sector have taken pay cuts and reduced hours to preserve jobs which has been remarkably successful compared to previous recessions.

Lifer its a fair comment they are not useful comparisons but to portray the unions as some sort of bogeyman who drives away business is also inaccurate – well presented without evidence so far.

Ps

Those in the UK[ strike laws] are among the most restrictive in the world. Most legal systems define a right to strike, in some cases it is enshrined in the constitution. Britain has no such positive right, only a bounded liberty the limits of which have become increasingly narrow.

ah well had my rest on with the next wheel

Junkyard - Member
THM once more you tells us how the market is reacting* this and not how the ordinary person in the street is reacting to this.

There are two consistent arguments on this thread that I am countering - (1) that the recession has been caused by Tory [b]cuts [/b]and (2) that the policy mix being pursued in the UK is [b]signicantly worse[/b] that elsewhere. This does not make me a Tory apologist nor does it mean that I agree with their policy mix - I don't. But that does stop me commenting on factual errors/BS.

The former is now not being repeated but the latter is. So the example of the FX markets is a mere illustration that, just perhaps, the second argument may also be floored. 😉 Even if you do not trust markets to ever get things right/believe that they rarely get them right, you have to be surprised that people would still want to put there money in £s when rates are negative in real terms, when are banks are still screwed and our government is geting things wrong to a much worse extent that all peers. Even this mythical "ordinary" man is capable of finding that weird!!!

We should be trying to help the majority not the rich elitists who value money above all else

True

...you will be telling me the market never gets anything wrong next and has a moral voice and conscious

Extremely unlikey - latest download off amazon is "What money can't buy - the moral limits of market" by one of my favourtie authors Michael Sandel from Harvard. Brand new book this week - I have only read 2 chapters but can certainly recommend it so far!!

We need to balance the two [ if we have capitalism] and it is not unreasonable to suggest that there may be a Plan b that would be better.

I agree that the policy mix could be balanced better. But there are also plenty of far smarter people than me eg Gavin Davies, Jeremy Warner, Roger Bootle who I have quoted earlier who think it not far off albeit unlikely to bring much joy in the short term. But it is too easy to talk about this mythical Plan B as if there is a blindingly obvious set of policies that no one has ever heard off. There are many factors that explain why the impact of many normal policy options is proving to be relatively impotent, among them the very high levels of leverage that remain throughout many areas of the economy and the fact that our major trading partners in Europe remain (broadly) in states of political and economic chaos.

And still there are apologists here for a political as opposed to economic model that prevents weak European economies from devaluing their currencies and therefore enforcing massive downward pressure on workers' earnings and/or condemning them to unemployment instead. And then on top of that condemn them further to austerity packages which cannot work. And these are people with a left-of-centre perspective?!? The Tories may be making some errors but at least they are not that stupid!

that last graph makes me proud to be French 🙂

There are two consistent arguments on this thread that I am countering - (1) that the recession has been caused by Tory cuts and (2) that the policy mix being pursued in the UK is signicantly worse that elsewhere. This does not make me a Tory apologist not does it mean that I agree with their policy mix - I don't. But that does stop me commenting on factual errors/BS.

Tory policy has create the double dip recession - this is not a factual error - this is a simple fact. UK and US and german growth was the same until the first tory budget - when we started performing worse.

Also other countries are doing significantly better because they are are creating growth we are not - why - the tory policies

Sorry THM - you are so wedded to the tory economic policy and you simply refuse to acknowledge this. No matter how you protest this you continually espose a tory economic policy .

I am not sure your view is the middle ground tbh.

well presented without evidence so far.

US reaps the rewards for making austerity wait

But the underlying point is that Washington threw caution to the wind; injected trillions of dollars into the financial system, the car industry and federal welfare programs to maintain confidence and stability. Ultimately, the Obama administration cared less about its AAA credit rating than jobs and living standards, saving austerity for a time when the economy is stronger.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/economics-blog/2012/apr/27/us-economy-austerity-eurozone

[img] [/img]

TJ - you will forgive me if I prefer the judgement of most professional commentators/economists etc. this week. But let's say you are right, why the hell isn't everyone fleeing from the £. I am sure you find that very odd.

Please stop personalising this (I know its hard!) and try to read where I differ from current policy. You even repeated one of my main points - the lack of investment!! Odd that - you agreeing and repeating someone who "continually espose(s) a tory economic policy" (sic) 😉

That graph looks even better/stronger second time round!!

edit for the edit: intriguing that you are fan of Paulson. This forum never fails to throw up surprises!!!

the underlying point is that Washington threw caution to the wind; injected trillions of dollars into the financial system, the car industry and federal welfare programs to maintain confidence and stability. Ultimately, the Obama administration cared less about its AAA credit rating than jobs and living standards, saving austerity for a time when the economy is stronger.

Funny thing is though TJ - have you seen the public sector employment figures in the US?

[img] [/img]

Isn't this [b]exactly[/b] what you have spent the past two years arguing against TJ?

If public employment had grown the way it did under Bush, the US have 1.3 million more government workers, and an unemployment rate under 7 percent...

Sort of shot your own fox really, haven't you TJ?

There are two consistent arguments on this thread that I am countering - (1) that the recession has been caused by Tory cuts and (2) that the policy mix being pursued in the UK is signicantly worse that elsewhere.

The former is now not being repeated but the latter is....

OK I'll repeat it then. Austerity slows down an economy and has now pushed Britain back into recession. HTH.

TJ - you will forgive me if I prefer the judgement of most professional commentators/economists etc.

Who are these economists ?........the ones who are advising Spain, Portugal, Greece and Ireland ?

Can anyone point out to me just why spain et al are staying in the euro. Isnt it screwing them beyond belif while germany and france do ok. 25% unemployment in Spain i heard.

THM when you talk rubbish them you will be challenged.

You said

that the policy mix being pursued in the UK is signicantly worse that elsewhere.

Not true - Hence the Guardian article that tells you the US are pursuing a different policy with different results

You say

(1) that the recession has been caused by Tory cuts

Not true - as many economists say and have been quoted and the graph I show clearly shows the failure of tory policy. They may bot have caused the recession but they certainly are prolonging it and deepening it

the US are pursuing a different policy with different results

What about the huge cut in public sector employment in the States then?

Ernie, austerity is indeed a withdrawal, exactly. Good job that these nasty Tories increased all areas of current expenditure in their first two years of office and are forecast to do the same in 2012. Austerity, God (sorry!) forbid is forecast to kick in in 2013. Then we can have that debate.

A broad range of economist from all aspects of the political spectrum including a Laobour advisor. No idea if they advised the pigs but given that one worked for Goldman Sachs perhaps they gave national accounting advice to Greece?!?