Teej – yes there are undoubtedly many other ways that people find out about issues, from panicked crowds to police knocking on the door to seeing the queue of cars stuck ahead of them. This system is just another way of finding out, and you believe it will never be used so what’s the harm in leaving it turned on just in case you are somewhere (maybe on one of your epic trips) where something notification-worthy does happen. Maybe a cocaine frenzied bear loose in a forest – I saw a documentary about that
What if I want to use my phone as erm... you know a phone?
I'm with TJ and I can't see any possible scenario with any utility unless we got honest and accurate ones which we won't.
We have the signs on smart motorways which seem to be 50% or so inaccurate... "workers in carriageway" seems to mean "cones we couldn't be arsed moving" more often than not. If its meant to be "live" then it should be correct or most people very quickly lose trust. I'm guessing the messages are just some bored contractor sat somewhere copy/pasting random messages into the smart motorway boards.
Either it's going to be meaningless waffle like "police have declared a major incident" but not say what after the incident (or not) has occurred and without giving people the detail they need to make their own decisions or we are all walking dead and the government are ensconced in their bunkers.
I listed examples where it would have been useful.
Where you claim it would and where those claims can be easily refuted speculation and opinion as Cougar says
This sort of technology can do amazing things
and some properly dumb things
2018 Hawaii false missile alert - Wikipedia
That of both of these sorts of events happen simultaneously is not a measure of whether this technology should exist or not.
I’m with TJ and I can’t see any possible scenario with any utility unless we got honest and accurate ones which we won’t.
It doesn't matter, the technology exists and isn't going to go away now. That you don't think it will help is irrelevant. Use it, don't use, it doesn't matter.
Sudden risk of collapse? Is that the one where it was all over the news for days?
I refer you to all the people for whom the alert seemingly came as a great surprise despite it being all over the Everything for weeks. Someone earlier on the thread had only just heard about it yesterday, someone else was suggesting that they'd be running up and down stairs in a blind panic going "WTF?!" if their phone made a funny noise.
Seemingly, some people interact with the rest of the world occasionally whilst others live under rocks. So it's clearly not a binary choice between "news to no-one" and "news to everyone."
Such a bizarre little thing for everyone to be so dramatic about. Like, there's a fire at a chemical factory and people living downwind should close their windows; "not me, I'd rather be asphyxiated than receive a text message!!"
What's the process by which an incident gets deemed sufficiently serious to activate this process, and how many layers of government does it have to pass by before someone gives the go-ahead?
Same as those who are inventing speculative scenarios where this might be useful that equally could make the situation worse
You: "Tell me a scenario"
Others: "OK, here's a few"
You: "Well, you're just making that up"
🤷♂️
Where you claim it would
In all the examples, people were notified though older means. Notifying people of a pressing risk already happens. And they have a failure rate (our local sirens are bugger all use to deaf people, for example... local radio news is listened to by fewer and fewer people), so why not also use modern means?
What if I want to use my phone as erm… you know a phone?
How is this preventing you from doing that in any way? All you have to do is press "OK" on the alert before you can carry on with whatever you were doing before, or perhaps not depending on what the message said.
I put it on mute. If I fall badly my wife knows where I am or I can pull it out and make a call.
I turned these notifications off because I knew they were coming and that I would be on my bike. It is a very specific scenario.
I have reactivated the alerts now.
Ah, that seems more reasonable.
What’s the process by which an incident gets deemed sufficiently serious to activate this process, and how many layers of government does it have to pass by before someone gives the go-ahead?
That's actually an interesting question. In the case of national alerts I'm assuming - probably optimistically - that it will be included as part of a National Response policy. Y'know,
"In the case of imminent nuclear attack:
Step 1: put down champagne glass and remove penis from secretary
Step 2: run and hide
...
Step 17: send out 'you're all gonna die' text message to the plebs
Step 18: see if Pob has any marching powder left"
But does it have to be national? It can be isolated by cell location, can't it? (I don't actually know.) The idea that control of local alerts could be delegated to local councils is almost more worrying than the Tories having it. 😁
The idea that control of local alerts could be delegated to local councils is almost more worrying than the Tories having it.
EXTREME ALERT: MARKET DAY AT SKIPTON WILL END AT MIDDAY DUE TO INCLEMENT WEATHER
I'd be waiting for someone taking the opportunity to abuse Cllr Roberts on their last day in the job.
Squirrelking – explain why/ how a mobile phone alert will make any difference rather than just stating it will?
@tjagain you are completely taking the piss on this one. It's really not hard to see the benefits.
*warning* ammonia tanker overturned at Haymarket station, please avoid area within 1/2 mile, for more details see [link]
You're the one trying to tell us it's useless so explain how you would disseminate such info to the maximum amount of people in the least amount of time within a specific geographic area?
Given plenty of people don't watch live TV
Given plenty of people don't listen to the radio.
Given a finite amount of emergency services and the biggest impact being as early into the incident as possible.
It's really not difficult to see how this could save lives.
As for who gets to send the alert, I'd say thats probably going to be delegated to incident/area commanders.
It can be isolated by cell location, can’t it?
Yes, I think initially it'll be used for extreme weather, fires and as Kelvin suggests; flood warnings. Like him I just see it as another way of alerting people to what's going on. People tend to have their phones on them, and they can read the message, and doesn't rely on telly or radio, or sirens (which frankly sound like air raid warnings)
I believe plenty of other nations have similar systems.
Mumble mumble, British exceptionalism, mumble mumble back in our day, mumble mumble.
What’s the process by which an incident gets deemed sufficiently serious to activate this process, and how many layers of government does it have to pass by before someone gives the go-ahead?
But does it have to be national? It can be isolated by cell location, can’t it? (I don’t actually know.) The idea that control of local alerts could be delegated to local councils is almost more worrying than the Tories having it.
The same question stands... what is the process and what process can in any way provide any utility?
Noone local trusts the road closed or diversion signs... if you want to find out if a rural road is really closed you move the sign and drive down it or ask around and whatever you do don't follow a diversion as you'll be diverted onto a closed road.
They have days or weeks to get this right... I can't even imagine a process that would give any accuracy in "minutes"...
@tjagain you are completely taking the piss on this one. It’s really not hard to see the benefits.
*warning* ammonia tanker overturned at Haymarket station, please avoid area within 1/2 mile, for more details see [link]
You’re the one trying to tell us it’s useless so explain how you would disseminate such info to the maximum amount of people in the least amount of time within a specific geographic area?
Ok lets dismantle this scenario
1) how long will it take to get the alert out? lets be generous that its 10 mins ( police to scene, assess situation, call for the alert alert approved) my bet would be its longer
2) during this 10 mins with an overturned tanker at haymarket all the roads will gridlock
3) no one who is not in the area can get out, no one who is in the area can get in.
4) the alert not being universal alternatives will still be needed and can be put in place quicker ie cops blocking roads - simpler decision process
5) granularity - the alert will be spread to a wider area causing confusion and panic over a wider area
I cannot see the alert making any difference in this scenario
Your view may differ.
I can’t even imagine a process that would give any accuracy in “minutes”…
If you can't 'even imagine' that then you are probably lacking in imagination.
I was out on my e-bike, was going to have a day off the bike but was bored so was doing a quick blast in Boost mode. Proper panicked when the phone went off, thought it was a warning my battery was about to explode!
Had heard something about the test but no idea what date and time it was going off so didn't remotely link the two, glad I checked my phone before pedaling back with the motor turned off!
if you want to find out if a rural road is really closed you move the sign and drive down it
There's a word for people like that.
Proper panicked when the phone went off, thought it was a warning my battery was about to explode!
Had heard something about the test but no idea what date and time it was going off so didn’t remotely link the two, glad I checked my phone before pedaling back with the motor turned off!
I believe that was one of the reasons for the test, to acquaint people with it so that there is minimal confusion should a real alert be necessary.
There’s a word for people like that.
Do you have a better way when they lie 80% of the time and the roads just have signs and no actual work?
If you can’t ‘even imagine’ that then you are probably lacking in imagination.
If the people authorising road closures can't even get it right better than 1/2 the time when they have days or weeks then assuming they can get something right within seconds or minutes is simply dreaming.
Do you have a better way when they lie 80% of the time and the roads just have signs and no actual work?
You're conflating two things here, motorway signs and rural signage.
I'd agree that motorway matrix signs often appear to be "crying wolf" but they will always err on the side of caution. They're not going to turn off a "debris in road" warning until they're absolutely sure that it's totally clear. It's unsurprising that many people, shall we say, "take them as advisory."
Moving "road closed" signs out of the way and driving through anyway is a self-entitled ****'s trick. There could be all manner of reasons why it's closed which aren't immediately obvious (and this is true of the motorway too, there could be a temporary speed limit in place with no-one visibly working because they're working underneath the road where you can't see them).
A rural road could be closed off, for instance, because they've just laid a new road surface so it's technically passable but would ruin the new surface. There's a bridge near me which is fenced off because it's unstable - it looks fine but it's about ready to fall down. People keep breaking through the fence to cross it rather than walk 100 yards to the next one.
If the people authorising road closures can’t even get it right better than 1/2 the time when they have days or weeks then assuming they can get something right within seconds or minutes is simply dreaming.
Ah yes, that well known single central government department of National Security And Filling In Potholes In Barnoldswick.
Can’t foresee the unforeseen circumstances an alert may be necessary? LOL
I’m sure they’ll be sparsely used, overuse would cause (more) people to switch off, I don’t count 1 test that shows some improvement is needed overuse… yet… First time it’s used for real it’ll be national news again, maybe then decide if they are actually worthwhile.
No alerts in the foo household I suspect our Android phones are too old, newest is 9 can’t see any Emergency notification settings. We’ll be the first to be wiped out when the aliens invade!
If the people authorising road closures can’t even get it right better than 1/2 the time when they have days or weeks then assuming they can get something right within seconds or minutes is simply dreaming.
The emergency alerts won't be used to inform drivers of road closures.
Emergency alerts will only be sent by:
the emergency services
government departments, agencies and public bodies that deal with emergencies
So not the geezer in the small pickup with a couple of dozen traffic cones then?
Edit: That's in response to a now deleted post.
2) during this 10 mins with an overturned tanker at haymarket all the roads will gridlock
3) no one who is not in the area can get out, no one who is in the area can get in.
What about all the people on foot or on bikes? Or just generally in the area who might decide to head outside?
Not the first time we've evacuated part of the site due to a suspected ammonia leak and yes, if had been real people might have died*. We have a tannoy and alarm system, as far as I can see an emergency alert is the next best thing.
if you want to find out if a rural road is really closed you move the sign and drive down it
There’s a word for people like that.
My thoughts exactly. But @cougar, don't get drawn into his usual paranoia/lying argument.
*please for the love of god don't reduce this to a helmet argument, noxious chemicals and their effects are well documented.
5 million well spent, I'm sure. There are some murmurs that the sub-contract went to Rishi's missus' firm Infosys via Fujitsu (of Post Office Shitshow fame), but that can't be true in this new age of political integrity.
My thoughts exactly. But @cougar, don’t get drawn into his usual paranoia/lying argument.
I mean,
I can empathise to a degree. I wouldn't trust our current government as far as I could kick them. But "the government has said it and they're evil therefore we must do the opposite" is woolly-headed. It's the same logic leap we see when people go from 'self-serving Big Pharma' to vaccination denial.
I'm reminded of those old riddles that went along the lines of "one demon always lies and one always tells the truth, which door do you choose?" 😁
5 million well spent, I’m sure.
Hang on.
How on Earth can it cost £5M to instruct four service providers to broadcast a message using pre-existing technology (one of whom didn't even manage it?)
Is that what this is all about, we implemented the networks half-assed? I need to go do some reading on how this all works I think.
Ah yes, that well known single central government department of National Security And Filling In Potholes In Barnoldswick.
Ah you mean Hope ???
You’re conflating two things here, motorway signs and rural signage.
I’d agree that motorway matrix signs often appear to be “crying wolf” but they will always err on the side of caution. They’re not going to turn off a “debris in road” warning until they’re absolutely sure that it’s totally clear. It’s unsurprising that many people, shall we say, “take them as advisory.”
Moving “road closed” signs out of the way and driving through anyway is a self-entitled ****’s trick. There could be all manner of reasons why it’s closed which aren’t immediately obvious (and this is true of the motorway too, there could be a temporary speed limit in place with no-one visibly working because they’re working underneath the road where you can’t see them).
A rural road could be closed off, for instance, because they’ve just laid a new road surface so it’s technically passable but would ruin the new surface. There’s a bridge near me which is fenced off because it’s unstable – it looks fine but it’s about ready to fall down. People keep breaking through the fence to cross it rather than walk 100 yards to the next one.
I'm just taking something that should be dead easy to create messaging about with days or weeks of planning but is still incorrect.
To take your example ... if a road is "closed" all day / week
A rural road could be closed off, for instance, because they’ve just laid a new road surface so it’s technically passable but would ruin the new surface.
then there should be some fresh tarmac... all week you'd think there would be some or workpeople but roads signed as closed all week.. diversion goes up against an actual closed road 2-3 miles away where people are actually working... and no-one living on the closed road has seen any work on it the whole week.
Meanwhile roads meant to be open were closed ... so the chance of work on a road had no relationship to any signage.
The entire village was just moving the signs... after a week there was a single pothole filled...
To give you a local idea this is like they closed Padiham road out of Sabden... so you take the diversion signed up Simonstone lane past the Higher Trap... only to get 1/2 way up and find its closed... so you reverse back down and take Whalley road to the picnic area .. drive to Padiham and then going back go via the picnic area and find that road is signed as closed... so you go back and over back lane... which is closed but not signed as closed so you go back and find Padiham road had no work on it all week... they just put signs up... and this randomly changes each day.
Pretty much most of the roads are singletrack with passing places... the detours are miles but you have no idea if they detour is actually open.. and the signed detour is actually closed.
There’s a bridge near me which is fenced off because it’s unstable – it looks fine but it’s about ready to fall down. People keep breaking through the fence to cross it rather than walk 100 yards to the next one.
Well that's what happens when people no longer trust ... everyone I know locally was doing the same thing or phone someone living on the road and asking if its really closed or not. Presumably the contractor got paid anyway as they closed the road... and someone somewhere has ticked it and told finance to pay them. Who knows? Maybe its just incompetence, maybe someone is taking their skim off the work that hasn't actually been done ?
So to me it's the same as the motorway matrix signs. It's the same speed limit... wouldn't it just be better to be honest and if the restriction is in place because they are "too lazy to move the cones after they finished" just say "speed limit 50 because we can't be bothered to move the cones" (or its more expensive etc.)
I'm sure on the face of it they think they are getting away with it ... and probably in terms of that one sign or road closure they did... but over time people stop trusting the signs or as you say view them as advisory. Something like "workforce in carriageway" is pretty binary... either they are or aren't and if there are no people or vehicles whatsoever in the work area/hard shoulder then clearly they either left ages ago or haven't turned up or ???
It's all very Peter and the Wolf...
I just can't see any way this emergency thing can be used? Either it's reserved for a nuclear attack or it gets used for all sorts of stuff, most of which will turn out to be either lies or so vague its of no value and whatever the process is its going to involve people most people wouldn't trust to tell them the weather happening right now.
It’s all very Peter and the Wolf…
which instrument played the warning sound?
Either it’s reserved for a nuclear attack or it gets used for all sorts of stuff,
You know, if you think really really hard about it you might find there's quite a lot of middle ground between those two extremes
£5M is the cost of the entire contract, not just yesterdays test. So basically naff-all in the grand scheme of things.How on Earth can it cost £5M to instruct four service providers to broadcast a message using pre-existing technology (one of whom didn’t even manage it?)
TJ - its interesting that you think it will be misused, so turned it off. I actually expect it will be underused, precisely because the speed of decision making on when to use it and what to send will make incident commanders unsure what do to for fear of being criticised they have invaded everyone's living rooms or used badly worded messaging.
With your overturned tanker situation its more likely the messaging would be to stay inside with windows closed rather than to avoid the area. The messaging needs to be for people who are already in the risk zone, not those who would face a cordon. I would imagine its not impossible that Leith would have chemical tankers going to/from Grangemouth. Just because incidents are very rare doesn't mean having a tool to deal with them isn't useful.
But I decide to disable alerts that annoy me after they annoy me rather than pre-emptively. I'd say they've got perhaps 2-3 misuses (tests no more than once every 6 months are not misuse) before I'd disable it. Other countries seem to largely manage this stuff without pissing people off or causing them to run out their houses into a hail of gunfire. Is it that their populations are smarter or their governments are more competent?
wouldn’t it just be better to be honest and if the restriction is in place because they are “too lazy to move the cones after they finished” just say “speed limit 50 because we can’t be bothered to move the cones” (or its more expensive etc.)
It's ludicrous to expect them to lift up all the cones down several miles of road after a shift every evening, then lay them back down again ready for morning. Aside from, have you seen how long it takes to lay cones?, it's the sort of "wasting the taxpayers' money" notion that the Big Two Fury Erupting Newspapers™ would get into a right frot over.
What isn't implausible is to stick up signs, "speed limit in force 7am-8pm weekdays."
As you're probably aware, the midsection of the M65 is down to 50mph at the moment. I've never seen anyone working on it, it's just a row of cones down the hard shoulder. Pretty much everyone ignores it, this is the 'trust' issue you were talking about. But that's because people don't know why it's reduced and again, signage would help with that. "Speed limit in force due to workers under the bridge / loose surface / no hard shoulder / narrow lanes / noise reduction during nesting season / zombie invasion" would go a long way towards stopping people going "well, there's no-one there!" and then maybe even slowing down.
Is it that their populations are smarter or their governments are more competent?
... yes? 😁
Well that was the 2nd test in Reading, ironically it's been deemed a great success as we all died in the fireball resulting from all the crashed cars on the M4 during the first test last year* meaning that no one died this time.
*the resulting reduction in population is the reason for Reading being continually denied city status.
I can empathise to a degree. I wouldn’t trust our current government as far as I could kick them. But “the government has said it and they’re evil therefore we must do the opposite” is woolly-headed. It’s the same logic leap we see when people go from ‘self-serving Big Pharma’ to vaccination denial.
Current government? Blair? Local councils they all lie but we have become so inured it often ceases to register.
But “the government has said it and they’re evil therefore we must do the opposite” is woolly-headed.
It's a good first step... at least if you assume anything the government say is a lie in detail you'll be correct over 50% of the time** and under Boris probably over 90% of the time and that was only when he was wrong and told the truth by mistake.
**if you include the reasons they give**
It’s the same logic leap we see when people go from ‘self-serving Big Pharma’ to vaccination denial.
Not really, that's what happens when people questioning the lies end up in echo chambers.
You'd need to be pretty daft to think the REASONS certain companies were given contracts for vaccines or PPE and others not were true when evidence is all available to see. (or Ferry companies with no ferries or....)
Truth: We need PPE ... (partial truth but honest we need ventilators)
Lie: My mates company who is giving me a cut and never made either indeed doesn't actually exist yet is the best company to make PPE/ventilators
Truth: A national emergency thing could be useful
Reality ... ???
Hang on.
How on Earth can it cost £5M to instruct four service providers to broadcast a message using pre-existing technology (one of whom didn’t even manage it?)
I'm sure the £5M is a loss leader .. at least they will be expecting to run this annually after being paid to make some modifications. £5M is an amount they would easily spend on the RFP and hospitality.
There will have been 4-5 companies responded to the RFP (Infosys/WiPro/IBM/HP/TCS) all who already do support for the telecoms companies. The RFP response will be a wonderful story about how they can run this in the future and the test will be if they continue on a more lucrative contract.
It's going to used to alert people to high winds, brush fires and flooding events.
It will be a somewhat useful way to engage some folks who may need to know about a local event that's another channel other than local radio, or the local news telly after the main news, given that the majority of the population have access to a smart phone. It'll will make a noise, and you can read a message, and choose to pay attention to it, or not, you may not even need to move your arse off the sofa.
That's the start middle and finish of it.
Not really, that’s what happens when people questioning the lies end up in echo chambers.
Ah, got it. Your conspiracy theories are fine, it's everyone else's conspiracy theories that are crazy. Makes you think.
You’d need to be pretty daft to think the REASONS certain companies were given contracts for vaccines or PPE and others not were true when evidence is all available to see. (or Ferry companies with no ferries or….)
But this is exactly the point I was making. The reasons (and also the REASONS) may well be hopelessly corrupt. But the error is in the conclusions you are drawing from that. If Boris rolled out the AZ vaccine for no other reason than he's besties with their CEO, does that suddenly mean that the vaccine doesn't work?
I grant you, the odds are in your favour given track records. But is it not wiser to be sceptical rather than just contrary?
