On a positive note , even the most gammony of my relatives thinks trump is a ****.
Keeping his mouth shut and taking some punishment wasn't an option.
Why not, what would have happened if he had let it slide? From what I saw JD Vance seemed to be mostly attacking Joe Biden in his little rant about diplomacy not being tried.
And Zelensky could have said "of course we are extremely grateful for all the help we have had from the United States" it would have taken away a stick which Vance was trying to beat him with, and it would have cost him nothing at sll.
Why did Zelensky produce those photographs in front of cameras in a press conference ? He could have shown Trump in private before/after the press conference if he felt that it was important to educate Trump on how serious the situation is.
I think it is quite obvious that it was a stunt designed to put pressure on Trump in front of the world's media, if you want to put Trump in a spot in front of the whole world then expect him to turn nasty. He is after all a pretty obnoxious narcissist to start with.
The King of Jordan had sit there next to Trump at a press conference recently in which Trump was talking about his unhinged plan for a Gaza Riviera which would involve Egypt and Jordan taking over 2 million Palestinians from Gaza. The King just sat and said as little as possible which was all that it required (although he did get stick from some afterwards) But the Jordanian government made it very clear before and after the King's visit that there was zero chance that they would accept Trump's plan. Jordan relies very heavily on United States aid btw.
Sounds like you're just making wild guesses. My guess is that you don't really have any evidence to back up what you claim.
Doesn't it just.
I think* they had agreed a deal, but whoever's the spy in the camp fed that back to Trump's handler and quickly Trump was told that if he agrees to continue to support then all the kompromat gets unleashed. Hence the sudden change and Z being wrongfooted and unable to adjust.
(* I don't but if we're making shit up I want in on the fun)
The bit I agree with is that Trump feels Biden gave too much too easily. I'm not even sure that rationally he does, but Trump's MO right now is that if Biden did it it must be wrong.
Keeping his mouth shut and taking some punishment wasn't an option. They want a fight by one way or another so they think they can walk away and look good at home.
I'm going to disagree again. It's a shit option but it was an option, and against all the other shit options might still have been the least shit one. Time will tell.
Trump appears strong to his MAGA fans, and hasn't given anything up. If Z had deflated and not given them the argument I agree they wanted they wanted, T&V would be looking even bigger ***** than they do today. He hasn't got his mineral deal is the only good part of the outcome, so there's a reason to come back to the table.
I think it is quite obvious that it was a stunt designed to put pressure on Trump in front of the world's media
Utter rubbish.
Trump started by belittling Z with a pissy comment about his clothes.
The planted question (by MTG's handler) about him not wearing a suit in the White House.
It's fine when Musk does it.
It was an ambush by two small men who hate Zelenskyy, and think Putin is a nice bloke.
No dealing with that - you can roll over (bad at home) or stand up to it.
It was a set up from the get-go to get at Zelenskyy as they both hate him. He's stood up to Trump before, and he will remember
Posted by: ernielynch
I think it is quite obvious that it was a stunt designed to put pressure on Trump in front of the world's media
Utter rubbish.
Trump started by belittling Z with a pissy comment about his clothes.
Obviously Zelensky didn't bring those photographs to the press conference in case Trump started to belittle him with a pissy comment about his clothes.
But okay if it is "utter rubbish" you will be able to explain to me why Zelensky chose to wait for a press conference which was going to be televised across the globe to show him a collection of photos, and why he didn't show them to Trump beforehand.
It is not normal to produce photographs not previously discussed at a press conference for two leaders.
And Zelensky could have said "of course we are extremely grateful for all the help we have had from the United States"
He did. And there you go… the repeated lie that Zelensky didn’t say thank you takes hold… despite the footage where Zelensky reminds them he has said thank you, many times, and says thank you again, many times.
“Trump appears strong to his MAGA fans, and hasn't given anything up”
Oh really? He’s lost the confidence and trust of his allies, lost America’s leadership on the world stage, possibly billions in weapons sales, who will trust America now? Sacrificed it all for what exactly, ?
I don't think Trump is impressed by the way Biden caved in to Z's demand (without any sort of compensation), or the way Biden simply gave away support for nothing.
Here are the facts:
The Department of Defense (DOD) Fiscal Year (FY) 2022 Defense Budget (published 2021, pre-2022 invasion)
The United States military faces substantial challenges, emanating from countries like China and Russia, and from threats to global security, such as from climate change and the COVID-19 pandemic.
• FY23 Budget supports and implements new National Defense Strategy (NDS)
– Recognizes China as our key strategic competitor and pacing challenge
– Russia remains an acute threat to interests of U.S. and our allies
Overview – FY 2024 Defense Budget
Even as we focus on the PRC as our pacing challenge, the NDS also accounts for the acute threat posed by Russia, demonstrated most recently by Russia’s unprovoked further invasion of Ukraine.
The Department’s investments will continue robust deterrence of Russian aggression against vital U.S. national interests, including commitments to our treaty Allies.
Overview – FY 2025 Defense Budget
Even as we focus on the PRC as our pacing challenge, the NDS also accounts for the acute threat posed by Russia, demonstrated by our continued efforts to oppose Russian aggression in Europe and their unprovoked invasion of Ukraine. (slightly different to 2024 wording)
(Source) https://comptroller.defense.gov
Do you know what? That isn't so different from the FY2020 proposal, published in 2019 by President Trump
Congressional approval of the FY 2020 Budget will help us meet current operational commitments and outpace the threats posed by China and Russia through maintaining our competitive advantage, even as DoD spending remains near a record low as a share of the U.S. economy.
The challenges posed by Russia have been a constant for US DOD budget proposals. If you take the actual $$ then Ukraine has kept the secondary substantial challenge to the US outpaced year-after-year for a fraction of the DOD budget (approx. 7% of the current FY25 DOD budget), AND could allow "DoD spending remains near a record low as a share of the U.S. economy."
...(without any sort of compensation), or the way Biden simply gave away support for nothing.
That isn't true either. At least $20bn was paid for from interest on Russian assets held by the "west" (that $20bn was just one news item) and the majority of the remainder was spent in the US within the American defence industry preserving jobs, economic growth, R&D and free advertising, etc.
why Zelensky chose to wait for a press conference which was going to be televised across the globe to show him a collection of photos
It shouldn't be normal.
There should be smiles, handshakes and the real business goes on away from the cameras. Then they come out and seem professional again. They had TASS in the press pack FFS.
It was done for ratings. How do I seem like a big man? - I'll shit on a smaller country!
Ukraine gave up it's nukes with the promise of protection from the US. That deal looks worthless these days.
It's all show and you have swallowed the crap they are spooning out. It's not the first time
I mean in the eyes of his MAGA fanbase. And yes, I suppose he has lost the faith and trust of the rest of the world leaders, but I'd say he never really held much of that, everyone knew what a PoS he was.
Zelenskyy received by Starmer and a cheering British public today.
It's all show and you have swallowed the crap they are spooning out. It's not the first time
Yeah and with that you still haven't given any explanation at all as to why Zelensky waited for the press conference in front of the world's media before showing Trump the photographs. If they were relevant to the press conference then they should have been shown on a projector or something so that everyone at the press conference could see them.
Zelensky very obviously produced those photos to make a point and put pressure on Trump, which is absolutely 100% fine if you are trying to negotiate and bargain with someone. The problem is that you don't do that in front of TV cameras, you don't engage in negotiations and bargaining at press conferences, it is not the right place for it.
It was clearly designed to put pressure on Trump in front of the global media, not the cleverest move when you consider that Trump doesn't like you anyway (he had already accused Zelensky of being a dictator and starting the war) and he is known to be deeply unpleasant to people who he doesn't like.
There is a midway point between being unnecessarily sycophantic towards Trump at press conferences by producing a totally unprecedented invitation for a second state visit signed by King Charles lll, and unnecessarily trying to pressurise him in front of the US media.
the repeated lie that Zelensky didn’t say thank you takes hold… despite the footage where Zelensky reminds them he has said thank you, many times, and says thank you again, many times.
Fair point Kelvin, I did see Zelensky do precisely that, so yes I retract that comment. I think the point is though that bearing in mind that Zelensky was doing a press conference with two individuals who are clearly very hostile towards him he should have taken the wind out of their sails by emphasizing just how grateful he was to the American people for their help right at the very start of the media event. As it was the comment came out as a contradiction to a claim made by Vance, it was suggesting that the vice president was talking nonsense (even if it was actually true) so it was obviously going to get Vance's back up.
Diplomacy can be a minefield and I fully accept that Zelensky was in an extraordinarily difficult situation - his country's survival depends on the wims of a totally unpredictable psychopath who doesn't like you, the only card you hold is that you have rare earths which they desperately want to get their grubby hands on, it's not a great hand. I'm suggesting that with hindsight Zelensky could have done a slightly better job.
What photographs. This is the only place I can find any reference to Zelensky producing photographs.
What photographs. This is the only place I can find any reference to Zelensky producing photographs.
It is detailed here and elsewhere
https://unn.ua/en/news/zelensky-shows-trump-photos-of-ukrainian-military-after-russian-captivity
Video of the photos being shown - Trump doesn't look like it was a surprise or any sort of hijack of the meeting...
and unnecessarily trying to pressurise him in front of the US media.
I believe the TASS news agency was also inside the Oval Office and the argument was broadcast on Russian state TV. I would previously find it hard to believe even Trump's lunatic administration would intentionally allow that to happen but these days I honestly wouldn't be surprised to find they did
It was clearly designed to put pressure on Trump in front of the global media, not the cleverest move when you consider that Trump doesn't like you anyway (he had already accused Zelensky of being a dictator and starting the war) and he is known to be deeply unpleasant to people who he doesn't like.
There is a midway point between being unnecessarily sycophantic towards Trump at press conferences by producing a totally unprecedented invitation for a second state visit signed by King Charles lll, and unnecessarily trying to pressurise him in front of the US media.
The 'deal' would have already been done before Zelensky even arrived in the US. I'd guess Trump in his usual 'king of business' way moved the goalposts to the deal Zelensky thought he was getting didn't match what was on offer when he arrived in the US.
As for the state visit to the UK - I can't see that happening. And even if it does he won't bloody dare show his face in public.
It would be hilarious if Zelenskyy wore a suit for his meeting with Chuck.
An interesting comment by Obama’s policy advisor on channel 4 news tonight. He said that what Europe has to realise is that the Trump administration wants nothing less than the destruction of the EU
Did he say Trump, or Putin?
Keeping his mouth shut and taking some punishment wasn't an option. They want a fight by one way or another so they think they can walk away and look good at home.
That was always Trumps plan. And he got what he wanted for his pea brained MAGA hatted fan base.
Zelensky did incredibly well. He might have done better if he hadn't been shouted down. But he has made it crystal clear to the rest of "the West" that Trump’s America can not be trusted or relied on. All doubts are gone. The meeting this weekend knows what they have to do now, and do it quickly.
Trump has said tbar he believes the EUwas created to screw over the US. Trump and Putin are aligned on this. They both want to destroy the EU
So my question to her would be......why would you want to surround yourself with such total shit stains? Far too many of them have loathsome opinions and such ****ed up values to want to voluntarily put yourself amongst them. I'd go further......it says pretty poor things about you if you could hold your nose and go anyway - like those who holidayed in South Africa in the 80s because the beaches were so lovely and the hired help so cheap.
That's harsh, and in my opinion wrong. Working Camp America is not a holiday. And less than half of eligible American voters voted for Trump.
My lad was in the States in 2019 at the World Scout Jamboree, and came back convinced that America would tear itself in two from conversations he had with American Scouts on both sides.
I'd argue that a British mentor at Camp America giving a fresh world view to young Americans is probably a very good thing to be doing at this point in time.
We have a trip to NYC next month, if it hadn't been paid for in full it would've been cancelled.
We've agreed this will be our last trip to US for the foreseeable future.
Looking at that link about the submarines there's a poll of express readers lower down about if they support trump or zelensky. It's heartening to see that they are 75% for zelensky.That must put Lord Far Far in a difficult place.
That’s always been the thing though, Trump (and Trumpism) has always been deeply unpopular with the UK electorate, and getting too close to him won’t play well for any British politician. Has anyone heard from the nicotine-stained man-frog recently?
Has anyone heard from the nicotine-stained man-frog recently?
Careful, from a page or two back dazh will be after you....
when it suits he's just the MP of a small seaside town.
We have extended family in Tennessee and even there some are deeply embarrassed by Trumps actions, granted not Trump voters in the first place. It would be interesting to hear what some of the older generation feel about the apparent cosying up to the old enemy.
As a side note, OH stayed for a month or so lately, the cost of fresh food is high. Eggs over a Dollar each and vegetables like Broccoli a couple of dollars , fresh fruit even beige foods like a bag of ‘chips’ are 5 dollars a pop.
The rise in medication prices will certainly be noticed by the self employed guys I’ve spoken to with 10k deductibles on their health insurance.
I also heard Obama's ex advisor say this about the destruction of the EU but to me it's more united than ever. Speaking to US colleagues, prior to the US tag team onslaught, there's some real animosity towards those MAGA in what they call the flyover states.
Yes, the price of fresh food is becoming a big deal over there. I was listening to a US guitar podcast of all things the other day and it became a big talking point between the US presenter and a UK guest. They couldn't believe we could get 30 eggs in Asda for £4 where in the US, Walmart (same company) were selling a dozen for 15 bucks and running out - some shops were rationing them.
EDIT - perhaps calling them the 'flyover states' and the attitude of coastal americans to those that live in them might have helped start this whole MAGA thing in the first place?
Speaking to US colleagues, prior to the US tag team onslaught, there's some real animosity towards those MAGA in what they call the flyover states.
Out of interest I shoved CNN on tonight to get the take on it from an American perspective.
They’d done some polling to see who American voters blamed for yesterdays utter debacle. 50% said Trump, 45% said Vance, 5% said Zelenskyy.
Doesn't look like anyones buying the MAGA narrative. It’s pretty obvious to even the hardest of thinking that the whole thing was an ambush and the only winner is Putin. After the first days of Trump 2 it looks like there’s some buyers remorse going on, though god only knows what they expected?
I'd like to see Zelensky, when meeting Charles, ditching the combats and wearing the exact same outfit that Trump wore in the oval office mugging.
That's harsh, and in my opinion wrong.
You call it harsh....
I call it inconvenient if you are trying to justify needing an excuse to carry on doing what works for you.
Yes, not the entire nation are steaming shits but you'd be entirely deluded if you thought you were going to make a difference and change opinions as a one person envoy.
**** them. And to do otherwise is to be complicit.
As for the state visit to the UK - I can't see that happening. And even if it does he won't bloody dare show his face in public.
Well if it does go ahead there will be massive protest demonstrations in London as there was the last time. Although Trump managed to claim that the crowds were there to show their support for him!
And I hope that the Mayor of London enthusiastically supports the deployment of the Trump baby balloon as he did the last time
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/06/world/europe/uk-trump-baby-blimp.html
... Walmart (same company) were selling a dozen for 15 bucks and running out - some shops were rationing them.
US$15 for a dozen of eggs! 😮
I just hope that's not heading this way.
AIUI, the egg thing is due to bird flu, so entire flocks of battery hens have been killed. Event like this show that the President doesn't really have the control over the economy that people often assume. Presidents always take credit when the economy's good and try to disown problems, but they can't just snap their fingers and make things change. Unfortunately for Trump, I don't know if he understands that, he makes bold claims about how he will fix problems in a day, he said he was going to bring prices back down. Now he's finding that the president doesn't control grocery prices and there's nothing he can do to make hens lay more eggs. Not his fault, but he deserves to own it.
Interesting read - while the GOP is mostly blindly following their dear leader there are places still electing more moderate Republicans. Whether they stand up and vote enough to rein in some of his shit will remain to be seen, but he only has small majorities and is clearly now a long way from "traditional" Republican values.
BBC News - Most Republicans laud Trump after Zelensky showdown, but some express dismay
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cnvz566n523o
Bloody hell , have I fallen into an alternate reality?
I suspect the picture hasn’t uploaded so look at the Sunday mail headlines.
You call it harsh....
I call it inconvenient if you are trying to justify needing an excuse to carry on doing what works for you.
Yes, not the entire nation are steaming shits but you'd be entirely deluded if you thought you were going to make a difference and change opinions as a one person envoy.
**** them. And to do otherwise is to be complicit.
I think you misunderstand the importance that a different world outlook and experience can have on young people. I'll bet the MAGA voters don't have many stamps on their passports, or foreign contacts.
How else do you break down dangerous echo chambers?
I saw that clip earlier on, who the **** do Americans think they are?
Seriously, "He was disrespectful to the American President ", the rest of the sentence should have been "Who's trying to screw his country for our own benefit "
