I'll bet the MAGA voters don't have many stamps on their passports
probably don’t have passports
Well, PubMed appears to be down for me. Normally you'd just assume a technical issue, but these days the closing of the world's biggest archive of medical research would be just the kind of vandalism you'd expect from Trump's new appointee.
I cancelled our planned 2026 family trip to New England after Vance’s comments in Munich.
VP Vance cancelled his family trip to New England after Vance's comments yesterday. Fox News reported that the route to his skiing resort in Vermont was lined with protesters. Republican governor there as well
It isn't heavily publicised (wonder why) but you'll find Youtube and other bits
It isn't heavily publicised (wonder why) but you'll find Youtube and other bits
Exactly - Americans are not as MAGA oriented as the publicity that the freak show in chief generates would suggest.
I'm all in favour of people choosing to cancel US holidays and boycott US goods. The point I was trying to make earlier is that working Camp America is not a holiday, and is a chance to make a (tiny) difference.
Most Republicans laud Trump after Zelensky showdown, but some express dismay
The interesting thing is that despite the fact that Sen Lindsey Graham has "never been more proud of our president" he isn't a particularly strong Trump supporter and he has been openly critical of Trump in the past.
The problem is that many believe, with some justification, that Zelensky dealt with Trump very badly. If this archive link works here is a good example:
Where did it all go so wrong? First and foremost, Zelensky made the cardinal mistake of disagreeing with Trump and telling him that he was wrong. For instance, when Trump repeated his false claim that the US had provided more money to Ukraine than Europe, Zelensky corrected him three times. Was Zelensky right? Of course. Could Zelensky have been more politic? Also yes.
The Daily Mail's headline doesn't entirely suprise me, the Tory press and the Tory Party have always strongly supported Ukraine since Russia attacked it.
But it's worth remembering that the claim that Zelensky lacks gratitude for all the help and assistance he has received is not a Trump invention, it predates him. The previous UK government and the Biden administration were criticising Zelensky's alleged lack of gratitude almost two years ago along before Trump had won the US presidential election.
Edit: I don't understand, the archive links used to work on the old forum but they don't seem to work on the current one. Any here is the link if anyone knows how to find an archived article.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/zelensky-knew-who-he-was-dealing-with-and-he-misstepped/
Edit 2 : I use this website to read archive articles btw, it works fine for the above article
The interesting thing is that despite the fact that Sen Lindsey Graham has "never been more proud of our president" he isn't a particularly strong Trump supporter and he has been openly critical of Trump in the past.
He also announced last month that he's running for re-election in 2026. Campaign funds and support from the sitting US President wouldn't go amiss, especially as his 2020 campaign was too bit close for comfort in the opinion polls
Where did it all go so wrong?
President Trump has two needs because that's what Trump told everyone that he can achieve: the need to do a deal and the need for an "immediate ceasefire", the same as his "EPIC ceasefire agreement" in the war in Gaza.
President Zelensky wants a secure peace, not a ceasefire where killings continue both during and after ceasefire negotiations as they did in Gaza.
Zelensky didn't do anything "wrong" other than state his position clearly, but as I already said ^^ Zelensky isn't known for his diplomacy, but he is an excellent and popular wartime leader who understands implications, which is why he's already said, "Sorry"
They couldn't believe we could get 30 eggs in Asda for £4 where in the US, Walmart (same company) were selling a dozen for 15 bucks and running out - some shops were rationing them.
Very minor point but Walmart don't own Asda anymore.
My sister lives in America and was over recently. Said it was interesting to hear our perspective about what's going on as most of the people she mixes with won't discuss politics.
Now he's finding that the president doesn't control grocery prices and there's nothing he can do to make hens lay more eggs. Not his fault, but he deserves to own it.
Firing the federal employees attempting to investigate and control bird flu in avians, as well as those attempting to do the same on the onward transmission to cattle and humans is very much the fault of trump's attack dog musk.
Putting a rabid vaccine sceptic in charge of public health.
These things are probably not helping.
I asked my sister-in-law for her perspective from just down the road from DC;
Ugh! The US is soo divided In our area you cant walk down the street w/out hitting a fed employee or fec contractor ...and they are all in chaos trying to survive The Doge’s psychological warfare. Americans are starting to reget the Fed rifs and did not expect that even on republican side. Traditional fiscally conservative repubs are not happy about the US fight with Z or lovefest with P but the dumb one just accept anything Trumps says even when its against their own interest.
I think you misunderstand the importance that a different world outlook and experience can have on young people. I'll bet the MAGA voters don't have many stamps on their passports, or foreign contacts.
How else do you break down dangerous echo chambers?
Firing the federal employees attempting to investigate and control bird flu in avians, as well as those attempting to do the same on the onward transmission to cattle and humans is very much the fault of trump's attack dog musk.
Putting a rabid vaccine sceptic in charge of public health.
These things are probably not helping.
Yes, he owns those for sure.
Well, PubMed appears to be down for me. Normally you'd just assume a technical issue,
According to a tech site all the NIH DNS servers are down. Some of the sites they reference can apparently still be accessed directly via IP or via some providers who have the records cached.
I am guessing they are finding out one of those "probationary" staff might do a rather important job.
One of ladies in the shop was a full on ukipper due to her husband. Working with us we have provided a view not previously available.
We explain how much of a liar Lord Far Far is and she is now of the opinion that he is a knob.
Go to the summer camp and provide a view that may not be available.
Careful, from a page or two back dazh will be after you....
Just interested in the moral equivalence. Apparently it's outrageous for Farage to be kissing Trump's backside but perfectly acceptable for Starmer to be doing the same.
As in one of them kisses butt (proper full on brown nosing) for their own personal gain, while the other kisses butt (AKA international diplomacy) in the beleif that it may have some benefit to his country. Yep, plenty of moral equivalence there...
I reckon Farage kisses with tongues. Starmer holds his nose and does what needs done diplomaticly.
At the Trump/Starmer press conference, Starmer made many of the same corrections as Zelensky would go on to also make about the support European countries had given Ukraine. Not the same reaction from Trump of course… he did make some crass comments about the UK… but Starmer laughed them off. Not the same stakes for Starmer and Zelensky, or the same level of hostility shown towards him from the Trump administration and their carefully selected client journalists.
Macron and Starmer are going to try again to get Trump onside with a real peace deal by the way. Call it “sucking up” if you want. Not the “rub Trump’s nose in it” approach some want. There are lives at stake though.
As for Farage. Look towards what Trump is like with real power. Farage would be the same. That so many of the UK public either like or don’t believe that is depressing.
Well, to me Farage has nothing particularly to offer him, nor any significant power to be asking for anything in return. He's just playing up to Trump's RW policies to provoke, and to build his own 'reputation' - totally self serving.
Starmer's in a position to make a deal on behalf of the UK, and in turn as part of Europe, and one of the ways to do that is to stroke his ego. It's very distasteful that we're going to have to have him on a state visit but what is the alternative? What else can we offer in return for his support, that we can't tell him to shove up his arse much as we might like to.
And even that might not be enough if Zelensky has soured the relationship too far. They (the European leaders) will be working hard now to resurrect the relationship, and while people may be thinking that it's great that Zelensky refused to be bullied, I can't help thinking he's made the job harder, not easier.
Right now I think he's playing his hand as well as he can. If you think the two (Farage and Starmer) are doing the same thing, that's your opinion and I can't help you change it.
Sorry, Zelenskyy was completely set up by Vance. This is not his fault.
Europe can do this without the US if there is the will to do so, which might of course be the issue.
Starmer made many of the same corrections as Zelensky would go on to also make about the support European countries had given Ukraine. Not the same reaction from Trump of course
I wonder if theres a bit of a l'esprit de l'escalier leading to Trumps outburst. Macron in particular-fact checked Trump mid-sentence, in front of his friendly hand-picked press crowd and Trump wasn't quick witted enough to react at the time. Perhaps this is really the rant he wanted to have at the other leaders he'd met earlier in the week.
Sorry, Zelenskyy was completely set up by Vance. This is not his fault.
I think also theres an aspect of Trump reading the mood of the room, exactly the way he does in his rallies. Theres no reason for him to campaign anymore but his ego still needs a room he can raise cheers and boos from. What he has now as a replacement is a curated 'press' corp largely made up of MAGA fandom.
Really Trump and Vance were joining a pile-on that the press in the room had already started with questioning that sounded more like chastisement. The topic of respect/disrespect started with them and Trump and Vance ran with it. Whenever Trump gets a sense of what way the crowd is going he's very quick to place himself where they're heading.
Sorry, Zelenskyy was completely set up by Vance. This is not his fault.
Correct.
The response, and the implications are on him though, and they could have been better.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/01/trump-officials-zelenskyy
It's amazing that the world is basically run by children. How did it come to this FFS. There seem to be very few grown up, fully functioning adults left in politics. Sad times when the people in the most senior positions in global politics have zero empathy and view a war as a business transaction.
I hope Ukraine get the support they so desperately need from the EU, UK, Canada and others bar the US. It is about time that the rest of the west found a way forward without them. Leave them to their isolationist, Christian fundamentalist, racist ways. Hopefully sense will prevail and Trump, Vance, Musk and their ilk will be booted out at the end of this term. I doubt it though.
Zelenskyy was completely set up by Vance.
That is a very widely held view and it certainly looks that way but the question is for what purpose? Zelensky was only there to sign a deal which would have allowed the US access to Ukraine rare earths wealth, something which Trump clearly and desperately wants.
Other than to squeeze further concessions out Ukraine it makes no sense at all for Vance to ambush Zelensky on behalf of Trump. Is there any evidence that the Trump administration are no longer prepared pursue the original rare earth deal?
As I understand it Trump had made a significant concession by not including, in the calculations of what aid Ukraine would receive in return for rare earths, the US aid that Ukraine had already received. So what would be the point of suddenly putting more obstacles?
I would be interested in possible motives for the ambush in the White House, although not the usual default "it's because all right-wing politicians are thick and stupid and don't know what they are doing"
Playing up to Putin. It seems that he is somewhat admired by Trump.
The claim that Zelensky doesn't show gratitude for the help that the US and Europe have been giving Ukraine predates Trump by almost a couple of years.
Both the previous UK government and the Biden administration were staunch supporters of Ukraine, there is no doubt of that at all.
Britain’s defence secretary and the US national security adviser have suggested Ukraine ought to show more gratitude for the help it has received from the west
Ben Wallace, the UK defence secretary, said that “whether we like it or not, people want to see a bit of gratitude”
Presenting his remarks as helpful advice, Wallace said Ukraine had a habit of treating allies, including the UK, as if they were an Amazon warehouse with lists of demands for weapons – and was not always careful to try to win over more sceptical politicians in the US Congress and elsewhere.
Jake Sullivan, the US national security adviser, argued that “the American people do deserve a degree of gratitude”, in response to a pointed question from a Ukrainian activist who asked if Joe Biden was withholding Nato membership because he was “afraid of Russia losing, afraid of Ukraine winning”.
Sullivan, clearly irritated, said: “The United States of America has stepped up to provide an enormous amount of capacity to help ensure that Ukraine’s brave soldiers have the ammunition, air defence, the infantry, fighting vehicles, the mine-clearing equipment.”
The two men’s similar language suggested a degree of coordination and marked a rare check on Ukraine’s repeated requests for military and diplomatic help at a summit designed to step up western support for Kviv, but without offering it an immediate pathway to Nato membership, which could lead to a direct war with Russia.
Maybe it's time for Zelensky to resign and for someone who has ruffled less feathers to take his place? It would take away one of Trump's "excuses" for not helping Ukraine and whether we like it or not it will be extremely hard to help Ukraine without the US being onboard.
If you worked on the assumption that Trump is more interested in helping Putin than Europe but at the same time he didn’t want to look like he is just being a Russian lapdog… then you could imagine them creating a scenario where it is Zelenskyy’s fault that it fails
I would be interested in possible motives for the ambush in the White House”
Trump has an axe to grind with Zelenskyy dating back to Hunter Biden days, he has a chip because of his impeachment and he is known to bear a grudge and seek revenge Humiliating Zelenskyy and undermining his bargaining position suits Trump and his bestie Putin. Every time the Ukrainians have to go back to the is an opportunity to screw them more.
Trump has an axe to grind with Zelenskyy dating back to Hunter Biden days
I thought Zelensky helped Trump out back then, no? I have to confess that's not a subject which I have followed closely?
Edit : According to this link Zelensky backed Trump a hundred percent and said that nothing improper had occurred.
Sounds to me that Trump owes him big time and has no reason to hold a grudge against him
Maybe it's time for Zelensky to resign and for someone who has ruffled less feathers to take his place?
I thought you’d be one of the people against the USA government being able to override voters in another country? Trump doesn’t choose who leads other democratic countries, their populations do.
Trump wanted Zelenskyy to find evidence that biden was corrupt. Hence Zelenskyy saying nothing improper had occurred. Trump hates Zelenskyy for not fabricating the evidence against bidon. Trump tried to blackmail Zelensky at the time . Its why trump was impeached
Unlike you to be so ill informed Ernie. You have that whole thing the wrong way round
Vance just has it in for him.
Has anyone here read his book?
Is there any evidence that the Trump administration are no longer prepared pursue the original rare earth deal?
I think an elephant in the room with the whole Rare Earth deal is..... the bit of Ukraine where much of this resource lies is pretty much on the front line, if not already currently under Russian boots.
Trump wanted Zelenskyy to find evidence that biden was corrupt.
Zelenskyy was pretty much exactly the wrong person to ask the favour of. Paul Manafort (former Trump campaign chairman and prison cell occupant) was also the laundry for a lot of corrupt money sloshing around Ukraine politics (under the guise of 'lobbying') before Zelenskyy came to power. Zelenskyy was elected, quite convincingly, on an anti corruption ticket, deposing Viktor Yanukovych and in doing so turned off the tap to Manafort and from his sugar daddy. Trump asking him to do any kind of favour was basically naive. Theres plenty of ways he could have had people dig around in Ukraine for him, with well connected people in his own office, but instead the whole thing blew up in his face.
The claim that Zelensky doesn't show gratitude for the help that the US and Europe have been giving Ukraine predates Trump by almost a couple of years.
Both the previous UK government and the Biden administration were staunch supporters of Ukraine, there is no doubt of that at all.
Britain’s defence secretary and the US national security adviser have suggested Ukraine ought to show more gratitude for the help it has received from the west
Ben Wallace, the UK defence secretary, said that “whether we like it or not, people want to see a bit of gratitude”
Presenting his remarks as helpful advice, Wallace said Ukraine had a habit of treating allies, including the UK, as if they were an Amazon warehouse with lists of demands for weapons – and was not always careful to try to win over more sceptical politicians in the US Congress and elsewhere.
Jake Sullivan, the US national security adviser, argued that “the American people do deserve a degree of gratitude”, in response to a pointed question from a Ukrainian activist who asked if Joe Biden was withholding Nato membership because he was “afraid of Russia losing, afraid of Ukraine winning”.
Sullivan, clearly irritated, said: “The United States of America has stepped up to provide an enormous amount of capacity to help ensure that Ukraine’s brave soldiers have the ammunition, air defence, the infantry, fighting vehicles, the mine-clearing equipment.”
The two men’s similar language suggested a degree of coordination and marked a rare check on Ukraine’s repeated requests for military and diplomatic help at a summit designed to step up western support for Kviv, but without offering it an immediate pathway to Nato membership, which could lead to a direct war with Russia.
Maybe it's time for Zelensky to resign and for someone who has ruffled less feathers to take his place? It would take away one of Trump's "excuses" for not helping Ukraine and whether we like it or not it will be extremely hard to help Ukraine without the US being onboard.
You can **** that right off, on principle. What you're wanting is someone who stands up to bullies, both in Russia and America, to roll over. I'd hope that if Britain was in the same position as the Ukraine, we'd have such a leader, and not a Vichy-esque bunch of spineless appeasers and collaborators.
As for him asking for stuff from the UK warehouse... if we don't help him stop the war whilst it's on Ukrainian soil, we'll be having to do 10x more when it gets to Latvian, Lithuanian or Estonian soil. If you really thinknit wouldn't, youre deluded. Putin wants a rebuilt Soviet Union. Seems a pretty good deal to do it now. A stitch in time saving 9.
It's such a shame when a thread that is an enlightening vox pop is reduced by people who lack convictions in their arguments or evidence and so reduce it to insults and aggression. Here's an alternative view of events from a fund managing economist:
Alex Krainer: The Hidden Wars Ukraine's Minerals and Global Power Plays
An hour long so not for everyone but I thought it was very interesting.
It's very distasteful that we're going to have to have him on a state visit but what is the alternative? What else can we offer in return for his support
When we get his support, he can have a state visit. Unless and until he's made a concrete commitment to provide support, his state visit can be delayed.
I've been criticised on here many times for taking a pragmatic view on a variety of issues, but this is a red line for me. (Not that it matters to anyone but me). We've dangled a carrot, but Trump and Vance have demonstrated they cannot be relied upon to do the right thing, and until that changes, the carrot can be dangled just out of reach.
I understand lives are at risk. Zelensky will decide if/what he will give up to protect Ukrainian lives. If it all goes horribly tits up, all European lives are in danger. Ukraine have spent 3 terrible years trying to delay and prevent that. We absolutely have to back them over the orange ****waffle.
I thought you’d be one of the people against the USA government being able to override voters in another country? Trump doesn’t choose who leads other democratic countries, their populations do.
What a strange thing to say. Who is suggesting that Trump should get to choose who leads other democratic countries?? I am of course suggesting that the Ukraine people might want to replace Zelensky, and it was with specific reference to him having in the past apparently lacked diplomatic skills in dealing with the Biden administration as well as other Western countries, not Trump.
Hasn't Zelensky himself suggested that he would consider resigning if it helps achieve peace? I thought he had.
You can **** that right off, on principle. What you're wanting is someone who stands up to bullies, both in Russia and America, to roll over.
The UK and the Biden administration appear to have coordinated their criticism of Zelensky's lack of gratitude back in July 2023, it suggests a long term problem which probably doesn't help Ukraine's case, maybe someone else might be better skilled.
You could probably disagree without accusing me of wanting anyone to roll over.
This was shared on the Ukraine thread. I've no idea if it's correct or whether it's a reliable source, but interesting if true.
Meanwhile, in the "Oh dear, how sad, never mind" news....
BBC News - Protesters target JD Vance in Vermont after clash with Zelensky
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdxqnxw6z73o
Trump wanted Zelenskyy to find evidence that biden was corrupt. Hence Zelenskyy saying nothing improper had occurred. Trump hates Zelenskyy for not fabricating the evidence against bidon. Trump tried to blackmail Zelensky at the time . Its why trump was impeached
Unlike you to be so ill informed Ernie. You have that whole thing the wrong way round
Did you actually read the link that I posted? I am assuming that you didn't, maybe read it?
Zelensky completely backed Trump's claims that nothing improper had happened with regards to phone calls that Trump had made to him.
The impeachment allegations relied on the claim that Trump had made improper requests to Zelensky. Zelensky helped to get Trump off the hook by insisting that Trump had done nothing improper.
When we get his support, he can have a state visit. Unless and until he's made a concrete commitment to provide support, his state visit can be delayed.
I don't know but I suspect that it was all 'getting ducks lined up' in this global game of offering, as indeed are the decisions to increase military spending. But then for whatever reason - and I'll again stress that T&V ambushing Z in that way was awful, but there are other respected commentators with insider info like the article I posted above suggesting that Z himself went off script and crossed some advised redlines, in front of the cameras, and got the reaction he did.
Would pulling the offer of a state visit now put the carrot out of reach and draw him further on.....or create another 'well * you' moment. I am so conflicted at the need to not just give in to his toddler like tantrums, but not me, nor anyone else here has one iota of what the deals being worked on behind the scenes are and suggesting he should be told to **** off is just crass naivety at what real diplomacy does.
I understand lives are at risk. Zelensky will decide if/what he will give up to protect Ukrainian lives. If it all goes horribly tits up, all European lives are in danger. Ukraine have spent 3 terrible years trying to delay and prevent that. We absolutely have to back them over the orange *waffle.
Much as it pains me to say it, wishing we could tell him where to go, we need them both back at the table seeking a mutually acceptable compromise. There's huge amounts of effort being expended by genuine politicians on both sides in trying to stitch that big tear back together, if it was just backing Z over T it would be far easier but ultimately less powerful. US has operational capability (such as air power) that we cannot easily do without; even without it actually being used.
Zelensky will decide if/what he will give up to protect Ukrainian lives.
Fair enough, his prerogative as the elected leader. I stick by my opinion that his anger / ego caused him to play his hand badly on Friday (under provocation, maybe, or maybe he contributed to that as well) and that's why we are where we are now, all that bit closer to major European conflict and unsure of who's going to help us.
Robertajobb is just hopelessly naive in that approach. It's because of the US being our big mate that has enabled us / Ukraine to stand up to the true enemy here.
I think it's reasonable to think that zelensky should have just let them blow themselves out a bit in the oval but in the heat of that moment, in a second language as well, it must have been hard. Add in loaded questions from primed journalists.
The big problem is that without the US all f-35, Apache, trident and god knows what else doesn't fly. So embedded is the US military industrial complex in much of the western defence system. Tellng them to do one is not an option unless you consider us effectively defenceless for at least a few years an option. That's why diplomacy, however distasteful is required.
