It’s been a thing worldwide since money has been a thing. Probably before that.
Nope. It happens, yes, but it can't continue indefinitely. Funnily enough, people refuse to simply lie down and starve to death if they can't feed themselves.
The Democrats, with their constant gaslighting about how people are actually in great financial health, were basically saying, 'let them eat cake'.
But we've had decades of people convincing us that this is simply the way it's always been and 'the natural order' of things so your reply is not really surprising.
But it is the way it has always been. Show me a period in history where there wasn't the baves and the have nots. There isn't one and it will sadly continue to be the case in my humble opinion. That's why my answer isn't surprising.
But it is the way it has always been. Show me a period in history where there wasn’t the baves and the have nots. There isn’t one and it will sadly continue to be the case in my humble opinion. That’s why my answer isn’t surprising.
There has been no group that has constantly accumulated wealth for thousands of years.
Societies will have a group who hoard resources and basically make everyone work for their benefit. Eventually these societies collapse because it is simply not sustainable.
It could be, with our globalised world, we are now in the end game where wealth will be concentrated in the hands of the few until the entire World collapses. Personally I'd like to see a concerted effort to finally unwind this concentration of wealth so that society can function for everyone, rather than just those at the top.
Given your response is going to be the same as many others, probably even the vast majority, I'm not going to hold my breath.
I'm not saying I don't agree with you on a theoretical or philosophical level but, how does putting Trump in power help? The only way I can see of a massive societal shift is through the worst effects of climate change or revolution and bloodshed. I'd genuinely be interested to hear a viable alternative.
Wealth, historically speaking , hasn't always been money. Resources, land, gold, spices, textiles etc etc but the result has always been the same. The power and wealth in the hands of the few and not the many.
The last thing that Trump ever seems is happy.
Given his near omnipresence in the media for the last 10 years can you even think of an instant where he's laughed?
There was criticism of Harris's laugh when she was first the nominee. I'm actually not sure if Trump even can laugh.
how does putting Trump in power help?
How does me drinking a bottle of vodka help? It doesn't. My life was shit before drinking the vodka and it's shit (but worse) after drinking the vodka. But at least it was different.
My boss saying that not drinking the vodka is the sensible choice is quite correct. Guess what, I hate my boss. They are part of the reason I'm in a shit situation.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/07/bernie-sanders-democrats-election
Wealth, historically speaking , hasn’t always been money. Resources, land, gold, spices, textiles etc etc but the result has always been the same. The power and wealth in the hands of the few and not the many.
Wealth inequality is currently increasing at an alarming rate. I'd imagine many on here feel, if not OK then at least not completely despondent, because they have some wealth. I include myself in that. However, if wealth inequality continues then we are going to eventually get boiled to. Our wealth will be reduced simply by virtue of the rich taking more and more of it.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/inequalities/2024/02/20/why-wealth-inequality-matters/
So what do you propose we do?
People on the whole are selfish ****s. Nobody with any level of wealth is going to want to give it up for the greater good. Well, very few, enough to make it not really count. I don't have much but appreciate I'm a hell of a lot better off than a lot of people. I'd happily pay more tax to have a fairer society but I reckon I'm in a minority.
Trump is the bottle of vodka. The Democrats are your boss telling you not to get drunk because you have to go do your shitty job in the morning.
The problem is the people who are buying the vodka are buying it as part of their weekly shop - it's the middle classes. Which is mind boggling.
America is such a strange place, as a child it was this magical Disney esque perfect country. As I've grown up I've realised it's actually a shithole with some bits of glitter in the pile of poo.
I and a few others have said this before. The US is a third world country for a large percentage of its population. There is, in my opinion, nothing to be admired or looked up to. It is a ****ing terrible, broken place. Rife with hatred and religious zeolatoary.
So what do you propose we do?
Take away the wealth of people who have accumulated obscene amounts of it. Distribute it throughout society. That is the very broad strokes. Feel free to explain to me why this would, of course, be impossible.
The very wealthy became that way because wealth begets wealth. Not because it was ordained by god. The only thing stopping redistribution from happening is that people insist on voting for parties that are funded by the obscenely wealthy. The obscenely wealth also owning media companies probably doesn't hurt either.
So yeah, don't vote for parties that won't go after the obscenely wealthy would be a start.
Are there any parties that will go after the wealthy considering that is who funds their campaigns?
I honestly believe that, without extreme violence, it would be impossible to take the wealth away from the extremely wealthy. For what it is worth I agree with you. In my world there would be no billionaires. It's an obscene thing to have.
You need to be telling c.51% of voting Americans that
But the only alternate wouldn't go after the wealthy either!
I am not sure about that, which recent Democrat President is associated with tariffs on foreign imports? United States hasn’t pursued protectionist policies since before WW2.
The 'Chicken Tax' was implemented in 1964 by Johnson and is still in place. It's a 25% duty on 'Light trucks' - Japanese pickups and European built transit size vans basically. Ford had a weird work-around for a while whereby vans built in turkey are fitted out with rear seats, seatbelts etc, even rear windows, and imported as 'cars' and then the seats, windows etc were taken back out again on arrival. (the supreme court eventually called shenanigans on that and Ford was hit with over $1bn in back taxes)
Mercedes would actually dismantle already manufactured vans and import them as 'kits' so that putting them back together classed them as 'manufactured in the US'. For a while Subaru would import pickups with backwards facing seats and a carpet in the pickup bed 🙂
Good post BruceWee. The thing is that rejection of mainstream politicians and the elevation of far-right formerly fringe politicians in their place is something which has become common right across "the West", despite the varied situations and the local politics in each unique country.
How can all the local conditions in each varied Western country all be apparently pushing in the same direction? I suspect the answer is that what they all have in common is their economic and political structures - advanced capitalism and liberal democracy, neither of which, despite appearing to be apparently excellent ideas, have ever stood the test of time.
Both are approximately 100-200 years old, and that is out of 4,000 years of human history. Modern capitalism is pretty much in a constant state of crisis, every legislative election in every Western country appears to be centred on how to manage that crisis. Liberal democracy seemed such a good idea as people were previously willing to be told who they should vote for, and this illusion that they were in control of their own destiny suppressed any revolutionary developments.
Now both advanced capitalism and liberal democracy have been found to be wanting after 100-200 of relative stability which is resulting in previously unexpected consequences. The question is why are the benefactors of these developments apparently the far-right rather than the anti-capitalist left?
I am not entirely sure but I suspect that it is because modern capitalism has always used socialism to patch up its inherent contradictions and failings - free healthcare, nationalisation, welfare benefits, and as a consequence socialism is seen as part of the problem.
The answers? Likewise I am not entirely sure although I do know that the far-right will not provide them. But that truth might need to be part of a learning process. 90 years ago capitalism and liberal democracies faced a crisis which spawned the birth and rise of the far-right, Europe swung to fascism whilst the United States ironically swung to the left. When the dust settled the far-right had been totally defeated and the left were victorious.
Hopefully WW3 won't be necessary but I do believe that both capitalism and liberal democracy (which is really mostly a scam that has very little to do with actual democracy) are unlikely to be around in a thousand years time.
I honestly believe that, without extreme violence, it would be impossible to take the wealth away from the extremely wealthy.
Nothing has ever changed without a group of people loudly and relentlessly demanding the impossible.
"The US is a third world country for a large percentage of its population. There is, in my opinion, nothing to be admired or looked up to. It is a **** terrible, broken place. Rife with hatred and religious zeolatoary."
US is a big place and that's not my experience of regular visits, time spent working there.
There are lots of kind generous thoughtful people there, just like everywhere in the world. Also, plenty of idiots, but we also grow plenty of those here. The riots over the summer weren't that great an advertisement for the UK, neither was the brexit vote and the last decade of politics, frankly.
We don't murder children on such a regular basis with firearms that it is basically accepted though to my knowledge. Nor do we make basic health care an impossibility for some or a crippling debt for others. We aren't perfect but we're a damned sight better than the US. At least for now!
US is a big place and that’s not my experience of regular visits, time spent working there
US society is highly stratified. When you go to visit middle class family and friends or go and work with professional colleagues you don't see the problems. Thing is, neither do they.
The riots over the summer weren’t that great an advertisement for the UK
I thought they were actually. A very small minority of blatantly racist individuals, of which are common to all countries, decided to riot. They were eventually defeated by the mass turnout of decent Brits who decided to take back control of our streets from the far-right. The scenes of what happened in Walthamstow, which signaled the end of the racist rioting, will never leave me.
Contrast that with incidents of hostels for asylum seekers being set alight in Germany, for example. IIRC the response typically has been for crowds to gather and cheer the perpetrators on.
I totally agree that the demonisation of the American people is inappropriate though. Although maybe not of their political and economic structures.
I’ve spent about maybe 5 years there in stays for work and much of the descriptions above and the people I met and talk to most days is not what I have experience off. There are some extremes of poverty and some very rich people but mostly there’s a comfortable middle class. Until you lose your job or get old without significant savings.
That said Europe has had since 1945 to stand on its own two feet and maybe this is the wake-up call to do just that and not rely on the US.
When you go to visit middle class family and friends or go and work with professional colleagues you don’t see the problems.
Obviously we all have our social bubbles but we also go travelling a lot, including hick villages in the middle of redneckistan, and still don't recognise your description. Some inner city areas are problematic but then again the cities are overwhelmingly democrat.
Watched some silly hysterical woman on X having a full blown meltdown when the result was announced. She was then in tears because she's reckons that when she wakes up in the morning she'll be a slave.
His 'green' policies will be either nil or the barest he can get away with.
There has been a fight for many years to protect Antarctica and North Alaska from drilling for oil. Trump wants to drill for oil. He wants to rid our planet of its natural resources.
He's a criminal, a distasteful, selfish, raping, lying, narcissistic, people (especially women) hating toad and I can't stand him. I'd like to get more personal but it will just wind me up for the rest of the day.
His ‘green’ policies will be either nil or the barest he can get away with.
Shares in US renewables companies tanked after he won.
jhinwxm
Free Member
Watched some silly hysterical woman on X having a full blown meltdown when the result was announced. She was then in tears because she’s reckons that when she wakes up in the morning she’ll be a slave.
She should storm a building or something. 😉
Being a bit teary at a pivotal election loss is pretty natural, pretending it ever happened with zero evidence and people getting shot over it is a bit "silly" though imo...
I’d happily pay more tax to have a fairer society but I reckon I’m in a minority.
Donations gratefully accepted https://www.gov.uk/guidance/voluntary-payments-donations-to-government
Doubt it will make much difference to achieving a fairer society though.
Watched some silly hysterical woman on X having a full blown meltdown when the result was announced. She was then in tears because she’s reckons that when she wakes up in the morning she’ll be a slave.
Can't think how the silly little goose could have gotten that idea.
#YourBodyMyChoiceForever
Is Musk angling to become President in the future? If so, he's going full on Bond Villain whilst the whole World watches.
But the only alternate wouldn’t go after the wealthy either!
So as a reason for choosing a party, we can rule that out.
And we're back to square one. Things will remain the same and the wealth divide will continue to increase. It is a two party system, neither of which cares about equity.
“The US is a third world country for a large percentage of its population. There is, in my opinion, nothing to be admired or looked up to. It is a **** terrible, broken place. Rife with hatred and religious zeolatoary.”
I've seen USA referred to as a very rich Latin American Country which fits better than third world.
This is related to the discussion, honestly!
Has anyone read a series of 3 SF books called The Red Mars Trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_trilogy
The riots over the summer weren’t that great an advertisement for the UK
I thought they were actually.
Indeed - I've yet to see any of the convicted rioters offered a job in government (or even have ministers squabble over who gets to offer him a job first), the ear of the prime minister or be championed by the national press a la Kyle Rittenhouse for instance
Rittenhouse has been publicly offered multiple internships, all by Republican lawmakers. On November 17, 2021, two days before the jury's decision, Florida House Representative Matt Gaetz offered him an internship. In response, Arizona House Representative Paul Gosar tweeted he would arm-wrestle Gaetz for the chance to have Rittenhouse as an intern.On the day the jury found Rittenhouse not guilty on all charges, North Carolina House Representative Madison Cawthorn offered Rittenhouse an internship. During an appearance on Newsmax, Colorado House Representative Lauren Boebert responded to Cawthorn's offer and challenged Cawthorn, who is bound to a wheelchair, to "a sprint" to employ Rittenhouse as an intern. In response to Gaetz, Gosar, and Cawthorn offering the internships, Missouri House representative Cori Bush called for their expulsion, tweeting "Not only do these members fuel violence. Now they're actively recruiting someone whose sole qualification is killing people standing up for Black lives and getting away with it."
I’ve seen USA referred to as a very rich Latin American Country
That's actually a reasonable comment imo. Approximately 130 years ago Argentina was the wealthiest country in the world per capita, certainly a hundred odd years ago it was in the top 10. Today it is a poor third world country
So what went wrong? Well mostly politics. Argentina has/had basically everything that the United States has/had. The difference I guess was the politics. So for all their failings, including political, the United States does get some things right.
Although to fair the United States was massively helped by WW2 - it gave them unprecedented business opportunities whilst simultaneously destroying all the industries of all their main competitors. Truly God loves America!
Edit : Perhaps to make the point clearer the reason that "the USA is a very rich Latin American country" is because it is the only one, post civil war, that has maintained political stability. No other country in the Americas has.
Edit 2 : Ironically, although perhaps not very surprising, much, if not all, the political instability in the Americas can be traced back to the United States.
Obviously we all have our social bubbles but we also go travelling a lot, including hick villages in the middle of redneckistan, and still don’t recognise your description
Right, but you're "travelling" so presumably looking in as a tourist. As I believe I have mentioned my wife's American and I've spent a lot of time there over the years talking to plenty of people.
Funny to see the response to the allegation that middle class people don't see the problems is people saying 'well I haven't seen any problems'.
Funny to see the response to the allegation that middle class people don’t see the problems is people saying ‘well I haven’t seen any problem
No the answer is that you appear to be judging the whole American middle class based on your narrow experience, I know American middle class people, including close family, who fully get the inequality in American society.
A lot of people on the left do but they are bound by the FPTP system and they cannot say what they feel. We’ve done this to death already.
There is no left option in the US. Just right and further right. I believe that is a huge part of the problem.
So color me puzzled, but how come Dems held the Pennsylvania House, but lost PA to Trump. Why was there not a similar swing for local politicians?
https://twitter.com/TarikforPA/status/1854865570757328915
So color me puzzled, but how come Dems held the Pennsylvania House, but lost PA to Trump
The republican / trump fundraising has been pretty poor, and also to a great extent funds were channelled from those fund raising efforts to pay his legal bills (which in a sense worked out as pretty good value for trump)
Further to that though the RNC (or more to the point Lara Trump) gave all the centrally raised funds for the Party and gave them to Trump's campaign and took a sizeable cut of money raised locally by state, senate and congressional campaigns and funnelled that to Trump's campaign too. So the Trump campaign was effectively cut off funding to local campaigns and then helped itself to their own coffers too
Trump is not a republican, he's a cuckoo in the republican nest. A good chunk of the people who vote for him aren't interested in other republican politicians.
There is no left option in the US. Just right and further right. I believe that is a huge part of the problem.
A huge part of what problem? There is no real appetite in the country as a whole for what we would call the left, but why is that a problem to us ? Their issues are to a large degree internalised, and externally, we're more affected by their current anti-globalisation policies, which aren't really a left/right issue.
