[Closed] Does my marathon training plan make sense?

Seem perfectly reasonable to me, but you also need to think about your pace or effort level on each run. I'm also assuming it's a 'get you round' plan rather than aiming for a time.

I'd do:

Monday - easy pace, completely able to hold a conversation, never out of breath
Wednesday - slightly harder pace, able to hold a halting conversation, slightly out of breath but not on your arse.
Friday - hard pace. Out of breath.
Sunday - same as Monday.

And increase the overall distance each week by 10%, but reduce by 10% every 4th or 5th week.

My Marathon training schedule:

Mon - Fun size in evening
Tues - Rest
Wed - Standard size in evening with coffee
Thurs - Rest
Fri - 3 or 4 tiny ones out of a box of Celebrations in morning
Sat - Light Mars / Milky Way session in cafe
Sun - King size

but you also need to think about your pace or effort level on each run.

This is my first week on keeping to a schedule (I have done some light training up to and over Christmas) - on Monday I did a 1.5 mile run at 8.15 pace and felt great then a 3.2 mile run last night and my legs hurt - only managing a 9.16 pace (but I wasn't really trying to push too hard given the fast run on MOnday).

Well you've not given us too much detail, but as a basic outline it looks sound.

Few points to note:
1) You've left it a bit tight for time allowing a ramp up from 5mi->20mi then a taper. Possible, but listen to your body and don't overdo it - especially not in the last 3 weeks.
2) Focus on duration rather than miles for the midweek runs
3) Assume Friday will be a speed session?
4) I wouldn't do a spin session the day before your long run

Edit: Ah, I got ninja'd!

The spin session will be very light - I would be doing my core exercises but might just do 30 minutes of slow spinning (I normally do intensive 1 hour spin sessions but I am dropping those until after the marathon 🙂

How much of a runner are you already? are you going to train with an HRM?

as a guide, my average run for marathon training is about the 10 mile mark rather than 6 but at a very easy pace, a couple of sprint sessions, don't bother with going to the gym.

you may find the Monday recovery run would be better as a rest day once you get up to long Sunday runs...or at least a very very slow recovery run for 15-20 mins

I am not a runner at all, just stubborn and determined. Perhaps you are right, I should be focusing on getting the short and mid runs a bit up in distance.

I have a Fitbit Blaze so it tracks my heart rate but I know it isn't as accurate as a dedicated HRM.

btw have you looked at Hal Higdon's training plans online? Lot's of levels, from novice to advanced, and reflecting how many days you can realistically train. I used them for all my marathon training and got to a sub 3:15 marathon using them

Have you ever raced before? Reason I ask is that lots of people turn up to marathons never having run "competitively" with other people. There HR goes up along with the adrenaline and often leads to stomach cramps etc because they are not used to it. All the training goes out of the window!
Best advice is to find a park run (5k) or a national trust 10k event near you so you can get used to running with other people.

also plan in one half marathon into your training...it'll help you learn how to not run too fast (which is a very easy mistake to make in the excitement of racing)

Have you ever raced before?

If you're not a "runner" could I suggest that you concentrate on getting yourself used to running longer distances, try to keep you HR down (it needn't be accurately measured, just consistent), but aim for 10-12 miles as an average run, and start to plan for at least a 15+ at the weekend sooner rather than later.

the quicker you're up to distance the better, don't bother with gym or speed sessions, just aim to be happy, relaxed and steady on a long distance.

So what would a sensible HR be?

Depends what your LTHR test tells you.
We could pick numbers for you, but they'll all be meaningless guesses.

[url= http://www.runnersworld.com/running-tips/runners-learn-how-to-use-your-heart-rate-monitor ]good article here, there are loads on line[/url]

4 runs a week is enough to get round and to get round quickly depending on your current fintess.

I would strognle recomend NOT doing them all at 'marathon pace', yes your long run should be at a pace you want to hold on the day (or a little quicker) but mix the other runs up with intervals.

I am a big fan of the runners world three runs a week plan, it is essentially 1 long, 1 tempo and 1 interval. With the long run at marathon pace(ish) the tempo run quicker (i.e. u pto 1 hour falt out) and the intervals being based on hills or sprint reps.

With fewer runs scheduled they all have to count and it give you time to recover from each one.

Check out [url= http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/general/the-first-three-day-a-week-marathon-schedule/2493.html ]Here[/url] and [url= https://www.amazon.co.uk/Runners-World-Faster-3-Runs-Week/dp/1609618025 ]here[/url]. It has some good advice on selecting the right paces for your runs to be at and has worked well for me int he past.

I've used the FIRST training programme, 16 weeks, 3 times per week, proviso is you can run 10 miles OK at the start.

I am a big fan of the runners world three runs a week plan, it is essentially 1 long, 1 tempo and 1 interval. With the long run at marathon pace(ish) the tempo run quicker (i.e. u pto 1 hour falt out) and the intervals being based on hills or sprint reps.

3 hard runs per week, isn't that a recipe for disaster, particularly for someone wihtout an established base?

YMMV but that would have me injured by week 3.

I'd say run every day. Replace "Rest" days with a 15 minute gentle run. This helps your body adapt to running. Running efficiently is mostly about the connection between your brain and your muscles and frequent running will aid this.

I'd also echo above advice about duration rather than distance. Try and get a 15 minute lunch run in most days would save a lot of time?

Check this out: http://www.samiinkinen.com/post/86569183902/hacking-your-run-10-faster-in-four-weeks

I live by this for any of my training. Its very time efficient.

Cheers Teacake - I may start adding in further short runs (such as lunch runs and run to/from work etc if I feel my almost 50 year old body is up to it after a few weeks. Cheers 🙂

mossimus - Member
3 hard runs per week, isn't that a recipe for disaster, particularly for someone wihtout an established base?

YMMV but that would have me injured by week 3.

'Hard' is relative.

'Hard' for me in 2014 was 6min/mile.
'Hard' for me now with an extra 2 stone and an injury is 10min/mile.

As long as you train to either heart rate or perceived effort, rather than pace as a beginner, you'll be fine.

At my peak, I was running 8 minute miles (but this was 14 years ago) over 12 miles and managed to avoid enough people walking rather than running to do the GNR in 1hr 45mins so I will be aiming to get to that pace again over 4 miles in the short term (currently comfortable at 8:15 on short runs but starting to slow to >9:15 over 3 miles, but early days)....

3 hard runs per week, isn't that a recipe for disaster, particularly for someone wihtout an established base?

YMMV but that would have me injured by week 3.

I'd say run every day. Replace "Rest" days with a 15 minute gentle run. This helps your body adapt to running. Running efficiently is mostly about the connection between your brain and your muscles and frequent running will aid this.

What studies are there to back this up? I.e. if time pressed, there's a significant advantage to the extra tiny amount of easy running?

The FIRST programme has AFAIK studied a lot of runners following it and these issues have not arisen - and certainly not for me.

Hard' is relative.

'Hard' for me in 2014 was 6min/mile.
'Hard' for me now with an extra 2 stone and an injury is 10min/mile.

As long as you train to either heart rate or perceived effort, rather than pace as a beginner, you'll be fine.

The poster was suggesting 1 long, 1 tempo and 1 interval session. Surely in this context they are all hard sessions?

Assuming you are starting the long runs this Sunday, you have 12 or 13 long runs to hit peak distance. I'd guess you'd want to aim for peaking at 23 miles. So you could increment 1.5 miles per week.

Personally, I'd ditch the Monday run altogether. If you want to do something there - maybe try a yoga or pilates class?

Every couple of weeks, consider some non-running cardio (cycling or swimming) to replace one of the midweek runs. This may help with injury prevention.

If you haven't got a decent pair of running shoes, or yours are old, get a new pair now - not 2 weeks before the marathon. I find good compression socks also help on some of my runs if my calfs are still achy.

Surely in this context they are all hard sessions?

Long runs shouldn't be hard sessions, they should be very easy.

When I was looking for training plans when I did a marathon a couple of years ago they all looked incredibly onerous so like Al, I followed the FIRST plan.

3 times a week and every run had purpose. I started straight after a 4 month injury lay off and didnt die so it must be fine 😉

I asked my colleague to have a look, this is his response, he is a 2h 31m marathon runner:

Difficult subject for me to cover with regards to run duration as despite being a qualified coach I have to admit to being more focused and tuned into my own training. That said, the overall mileage of midweek runs does seem low... the plan appears to 'peak' with a week of 2x 3mile runs, 1x 6mile run, 1x20mi run, so >60% of the mileage is completed in the long run alone.

For me, I would expect to see the 3mi runs up around the 6mi mark, (ramping up a lot quicker than the Sunday long run), and the 'medium' run building to 10mi+ (rather than 6mi)

I would forget trying to train by HRM - a blunt/brash statement admittedly but so many variables to consider its not (IMO) worth the investment in time to understand and plan it all, given your goal and timescale.

I would also forget doing any speedwork/intervals for this level of athlete - the marathon for this guy will be purely a test of endurance and stamina and thus his focus should be entirely on building his aerobic capacity - speedwork and improving his anaerobic system will have little benefit on his marathon performance... he would benefit a lot more aerobically from a 30min steady run than 30mins of intervals/rest

If time allows, a rest day after the long run day would be beneficial, e.g.
M - Rest
T - Short
W- Med
T - Rest
F - Short
S - Light Core/spin
S - Long

could easily be hours of discussion, but a few thoughts anyhow...

@ Cynic-al I'm not aware of any large studies on what I'm suggesting but in true STW fashion, it works for me and if you are short for time I'd argue it's the best way to adapt your body for running. By the sounds of it that's what the OP needs, a body adapted to handle the distance rather than be able to run fast.

The biggest challenge for the OP is getting to the start line without an injury. Two long runs a week (as an example) is more likely to provide an injury than 7 shorter ones, since most injuries happen when we tire and start running with sloppy technique.

Anyway, who says you need a massive detailed study to say it will benefit if you try it and it is better than what you were doing before? It works for me and Formula 1 teams! [i]"it's faster but we don't have time to understand why"[/i]

Leeds Abbey Dash

Did my 10k pb there over 20yrs ago 🙂

I agree mostly with Votchy.

Dont bother with a HRM, just a distraction and it will likely end up in the bottom drawer after a few runs.
Yes too much focus on the long Sunday run. Sunday runs are almost always run too slowly. It doesnt seem right to do around 60% of your mileage in one run.
Intervals are the single most beneficial type of training you can do but I agree its not worth trying to build them in now. It takes a long time to adapt to them and you dont really have long enough.

they should be very easy

They shouldnt. There really is no such thing as "easy" each run should have a purpose and although the term is used often by serious runners it is "relative" All runs should be within a reasonable % of your goal race pace. If they are too slow you should probably stay in bed to avoid injury and save you energy for a run that is going to "add" to your fitness. Runs should vary in effort but the concept of "long slow distance" has been misused over recent years. Your long run should be challenging and one of your hardest weekly (10 day cycle) training sessions.

Most of the above seems reasonable advice. I'd suggest you ramp up the long run more than 10% per week in the early stages, 2 miles at a time might be a better guide - especially since you're already at 5 and have some decent running experience. And more miles in the other runs would be better too, so long as you don't ramp it up too quickly.

In contradiction to what most have said, some advise making the long run a hard session - not flat out, but with some harder periods embedded. A hilly route will naturally encourage that. I typically do 2 tough sessions per week (including the long run), the rest is easy running/cycling/swimming.

Cycling on the "rest days" would give your joints a break, but if you're pushed for time, 3-4 runs per week should see you round.

I would say Votchy's colleague has it nailed

Sunday runs are almost always run too slowly

Sunday run almost can't be too slow!

It adds no benefit if it is too slow (depending on what the athlete is capable of) but burns energy and increases the risk of injury. At too slow a pace it only adds risk and no fitness benefit.

Many thanks for all the sound advice so far - I agree that perhaps my midweek runs are focussed on peaking at too short a run and I need to look at that. The Wednesday longer run I should easily be able to add to it as I finish work early so could easily run 10/12 milers with the time I have.

Good luck Johndo, as someone above said, just aim to avoid injury and get to the startline. 90% of success is turning up!

It adds no benefit if it is too slow (depending on what the athlete is capable of) but burns energy and increases the risk of injury. At too slow a pace it only adds risk and no fitness benefit

votchy - Member
I asked my colleague to have a look, this is his response, he is a 2h 31m marathon runner:

...

I would also forget doing any speedwork/intervals for this level of athlete - the marathon for this guy will be purely a test of endurance and stamina and thus his focus should be entirely on building his aerobic capacity - speedwork and improving his anaerobic system will have little benefit on his marathon performance... he would benefit a lot more aerobically from a 30min steady run than 30mins of intervals/rest

I agree with the vast majority of your fast friend but not this bit. Speedwork isn't about anaerobic work - running faster enhances running economy (technique), cadence and endurance (see Jack for more info - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Daniels_(coach))

I'd suggest a weekly long run, a weekly faster run (build up from 20mins to 60mins at a 'comfortably hard' pace (maybe start with Parkruns?) and as many easy runs as you can do without injuring yourself!

can't say I've ever heard that before

Me neither. I find long runs at an easy pace at the weekend, and hard interval sessions during the week are what work for me. As you get fitter the easy pace naturally picks up.

The term "speed" is a bit misleading. What I am saying is that if you are capable of say running 10 miles in 50 mins (5 min per mile) then your sunday run of say 15 miles should not be run much slower than say 6 minute miles. If you are running them at say 8 minute miles then you really are wasting your time.
If you run 10 miles in 80 mins then running your longest run at say 9:30 mins per mile is probably about right.
All things are relative.

I just struggle to see how a 15m slow run is any better than adding 15m or so to one of your other runs.

it's all about adaptation...The Lore of Running is your go-to source on this subject

If you are running them at say 8 minute miles then you really are wasting your time

Long runs are intended to stress you in a different way. Its not optimal to run 60 miles per week, all in one run!
As I said "slow" is a relative term but you should finish your long run feeling tired and needing recovery, just as you would feel after an interval session/hill session/race etc.

I don't disagree with that, and I think what you are saying is correct if the goal is a "fast" time, but if the aim is to get round (especially on a 3.5 month training plan), then I would think doing the long slow run really slow is less likely to be harmful than trying to keep to a pace say 1min/mile slower than target pace.

I would go and get the Lore of Running out and quote from that, but it's too heavy 🙂

again, I've not heard this before...do you have a source?

The numbers I am quoting are not written in stone. The point I made was that they need to be taxing and should not be "easy" they are a component of a training plan so have to have a training benefit (nothing wrong with going out for a very slow jog for fun but thats not what I am talking about)
There is not one source as these things are not written in stone there is agreement that training improves performance but a million variations on that theme.
Here is one article that discusses the importance of training within certain speed parameters. The point being that if you are training for performance you need to have some pace/effort "parameters in mind.

http://www.serpentine.org.uk/pages/advice_dc02.html

If you read Tim Noakes on this subject you will see the same thing (its pretty obvious really) that training and pace need to be "structured" I look forward to reading his quotes.

The point being that if you are training for performance you need to have some pace/effort "parameters in mind.

might be wrong (and happy for OP to correct me if it's the case) but I don't think the OP is training for performance, but looking to complete.

I understand that but the argument stands. Pacing is important for runners intending to finish. Every training plan has to be "considered" and logical otherwise it is not a "plan"

Every training plan has to be "considered" and logical otherwise it is not a "plan"

That deserves a sticky all of its own.

I don't think the OP is training for performance, but looking to complete.

Put it this way, I don't expect to run <4hrs (however if my training goes well, I know I am capable of doing that) but I don't want to be walking at any point.

(Without quoting quotes in quotes)

Ref: 1 long, 1 interval , 1 x tempo.

They are all relevant, no junk and mean you should always have a clear recovery before the next run. The long run is 'hard' because it is tiring and challenging your aerobic system to run for 60-120 mins. the intervals (which as a total run might be over in 30mins) are hard because you are flat out for 30sec-2mins then recovering and the tempo run is hard because you are running on your LTHR(ish) pace for 40-60 mins.

NONE of these should leave you feeling 'broken' and they mean all the time on your feet is relevant, the long run should be close to your marathon pace not just plodding along. This plan worked well for me, partly as I have had problems in the past with shins (stress fractures etc.) and since then have avoided running on successive days. for what it is worth used this plan and met my target in VLM by doing every run at the prescribed pace/distance and I was on the low end of distance covered (approx. 560km over 16 weeks from beginning of jan to the race). I rode on the days between to aid recovery and because i could 'only' run on these days it meant I was excited to do every session and they all had to count, no plodding round for an hour at marathon pace +1min/km just to get distance in.

I am very aware everyone is different but this plan seems to have enough success stories to say it is worth it for people who can't commit to a more traditional high milage, multi day plan.

of course, this is all my n=1 and YMMV!

the long run should be close to your marathon pace not just plodding along.

So I have just done a spreadsheet (WIP) and it has me at (by week thirteen when I will begin tapering)

Mon 3 mile recovery
Wed 10 mile hard
Fri 4 mile medium
Sun 22 race pace

Perhaps I need to up the Wed/Fri distances a little?

Interesting thread with lots of resources! Re avoiding injury / plodding I have found doing ~1 hour run with a focus entirely on ease, lightness, quietness of foot strike to be a good idea. 'Plodding' suggests clumping along as if you would rather be somewhere else - very injury inducing I expect. For reference a 'light/easy' run for me is around 6min/km, race pace is 4min/km for 10k.
Another [url= http://www.runningforfitness.org/calc/training/pace ]resource [/url]for intervals

As most have said I'd try and up the mid week mileage a bit quicker. Maybe do a steady Parkrun on Saturday with a run there and a warm up taking you up to somewhere around 5miles?

10 miles maximum is fine for Wednesday. Friday I would aim to do a bit more (maybe 6 miles) with some mile repeats, hills, or at least some strides in there.

I wouldn't do the 22miles @ race pace 3 weeks out, that will likely be one of your hardest weeks and putting in a run that hard could be a disaster at that stage, I would try and do race pace running as part of your Wednesday run once up to 8+ miles.

Most important thing to bear in mind though is you're better being at the start injury free and under-trained than injured and watching it on the telly.

Edit: Start doing some strength work too, calf raises, glute bridges, pistol squats, lunges etc.

@irinslist - Saturday mornings have been earmarked for core training (been on that since early December) 🙂

Well I went out to do my first 'marathon pace' distance run on Sunday morning. Twas quite a relaxing way to start the day (as it was the shortest 'long' run at the beginning of my schedule).

Got up earlier than normal, had some breakfast and put a chicken on in the slow cooker ready for dinner.

Was on the road for 9am and did 4.7 miles at a steady pace of 9:06 with 275ft of climbing (blasted hilly place where I live) and legs feel pretty fresh this morning.

🙂

This is making my aim of 10:15 miles look rather pathetic. I was quite pleased with my new 28:30 park run PB time this weekend until now!

Still, when I get round this half marathon in March, I'll still be happy.

Rachel

The weak link in any sport when you first start out is tendons and connective tissue, muscles get hench pretty quick leaving joints at risk of injury.
I would do the gym work first, get 6 weeks of squats, ass to grass, lunges, calf raises and core work under ones belt.[Other exercises also available]
Run on your toes, don't jog, the faster your travelling forward the less strain on the knees.

This is making my aim of 10:15 miles look rather pathetic.

ha ha - I know what you mean - this should help a lot!! https://www.strava.com/athletes/7844170

😀

Requested - and the best of luck with your training and race 🙂

Ha - you see Rachel - my location is so bloody hilly (your stats first):

Distance
9.6 mi 9.4 mi

Time
1h 36m 1h 25m

Elev Gain
[b]36 ft 548 ft[/b]

Runs
2 3

Yeah - it's a problem around here 🙂

It's better when it's hilly, more fun. Flat is dull 🙂

I agree, but hills kill knees.

If you're trying to get fit and get round then don't stress over your speed. There will always be plenty of people quicker and plenty slower!

The slow running thing is real, trust me as I'm suffering now.
I've been for a few longish runs (12-20 miles) with the wife over Christmas/New Year. She's training for an ultra and generally runs slower than me. So I've been going a fair bit slower than I would normally and I've picked up a knee strain (probably ITBS) as a result. I think the crux is that running much slower than you normally would alters your gait and style, which introduces movement that you aren't normally used to doing, and can then lead to injury. The last week I've been concentrating on maintaining form and it seems to be working but if I lapse I can feel the knee.

To the OP...

Don't do your long runs at marathon pace! They should be a good 30 to 60 seconds a mile slower! Otherwise you'll leave your race in training.

Going back to your distances a couple of posts ago, you mention 10 miles on Wednesday hard, and 4 medium on Friday. I'd swap them round. The longish run on a Wednesday is aerobic work, the Friday should be threshold/tempo work to improve speed. Monday or Tuesday is a leg stretcher to get Sunday out of the legs.

The problem is that I don't have the time on a Friday but I do on a Wednesday :-/

TBH, I don't know what my marathon pace will be like as I have never done one. All I know is that when I did a half, I trained to a point where I reached my optimal mile speed (8 minutes) and ran laps of either 4, 8 or 12 miles of my favourite run then did the GNR in 1hr 45mins.

I don't expect to translate that 8 minute mile pace into a full marathon though for two reasons - 1, I haven't been training for as long and 2, I am some 13 or 14 years older.

You can roughly estimate a plausible marathon time if you do a shorter race - there are lots of calculators on the web based around something called the Riegel formula. However they are generally too optimistic (especially for slower/casual runners) on converting a half to full marathon.

Its difficult to calculate. The rule of double and add 10 minutes seems about right if you are running under 70 mins for a half but the faster lads can double and add a couple of minutes or so. It depends on how your body handles the stress over 2+ hrs. Its difficult to train for. I ran the London in 96 and stated with some mates who just wanted to break 3hrs. I left them after about 15 miles and felt like I was flying in the last 10 overtaking people like mad. I actually won a 3k on the track on the Tuesday evening two days after!

A friend of mine who had ran 62 mins for a half and trained hard for London only ran 2:17. We all expected him to run around 2:10 but you really cant predict how your body will handle the time and distance. He ran a couple of others around the same time or slower but went back to shorter distances.

62 for a half - Christ on a bike - the European record is only 59:32 by Mo Farah - the first UK athlete to break 60 minutes!

62:45 to be exact, 50th on the UK all time list at the moment. Strangely enough he ran the same time exactly in anotheer HM abroad. 46:25 for 10m although there was a question mark over the course. Had to settle for official 47:02.
Anyway I used to hold his coat 😀

Time on your feet.
Try and get a few 20 mile long runs in but no more.
Practice with what fuel you'll be using in the race.
Hill repeats and speed work is beneficial later in the schedule.
On the day take it steady for the first 20 or so miles. Don't race or try and keep up with anyone. It should be easy compared to the training effort you've put in given the crowds, fellow runners and adrenaline. Good luck and enjoy.

Thank you Mr Sheen. Hopefully the torture of dark, wet, cold and windy night runs will pay off come April.

However - just how many do you mean by 'a few' 20 mile runs in? At the moment I have planned to do:
One 16 mile, one 18 mile and two 20 mile runs as my longest runs – and in those weeks I am also doing one 8 mile, one 10 mile and two 12 mile runs respectively as my shorter 'long' run of the week. I am currently building my distance up – doing 4 miles tonight and 6 on Sunday.

Cheers 🙂

However - just how many do you mean by 'a few' 20 mile runs in?

I'm not Mr Sheen, but I always try and do five.