[Closed] Does anyone not wear a poppy, and why?

Heh! Me too. 🙂

grum - Member

I already did:

No you didn't.
No one on here has suggested that we fought WWII to save the Jews.

Please provide more evidence that this view is 'quite prevalent'.
I've certainly never, ever heard anyone suggest we did.
And I've never encountered a 'holocaust centric' teaching model of WW2 either.

As to concentration camps, Ben said that the Nazi regime did not have them before WW2.
He was wrong, they did, from the early 30's onward.
What's misleading about that?

There's plenty of opinion on this thread - all of it interesting and valid.

But at least can we get the facts right?

Some interesting views. I thought this 91 year old veteran's views were valid and well worth a read:

In summary:

"I will no longer allow my obligation as a veteran to remember those who died in the great wars to be co-opted by current or former politicians to justify our folly in Iraq, our morally dubious war on terror and our elimination of one's right to privacy".

Full article:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/08/poppy-last-time-remembrance-harry-leslie-smith

Certainly WWI and WWII were fought for very different reasons to the current wars we are in now.

As a side question, how should we have handled the action against the 7/7 bombings, 9/11 etc, this modern war on terror?

This is the point I brought up with my partner and friends. No-one gave me a valid answer other than 'they killed people in our country'. A simplistic view yes, but not the right one?

I don't for exactly the same reasons previous poster's have mentioned. Mainly, that I don't need to be told when or how to remember. I was born in the 70's anyway so I don't remember either of the world wars. Though I have read a lot about them. I do think a lot about all the poor souls who've died in the recent oil-wars.

And also, I don't wear badges.

Also: Interesting point about conscripts and pro-soldiers.

Honour, pride, nation, glory - words frequently used in propaganda. Today we have 'terrorism'. The blurred meaning of these words by our leaders is quite scary when you think about it. The very idea of an ongoing 'war on terror' would be daft, funny even if it weren't for the horrible reality.

As to concentration camps, Ben said that the Nazi regime did not have them before WW2.
He was wrong, they did, from the early 30's onward.

I was, I should have said extermination camps.

Harry Smith makes very valid points even if some of the detail was contradicted by the Historian on R4 at lunchtime. I agree with him that war has been overly glorified and sanitised but disagree on the political accusation.

Why? It's obvious that there has been some political posturing etc. But look here at this thread. There are lots of feelings and strong sentiments that are expressed here [i]that are themselves political[/i] eg, I don't wear a poppy (now) because I object to......

Smith makes his own political points as well. And isn't that the real point? We are free to make those points, to politicise them [i]if we want to[/i] and to defend our views and perspectives [i]as we see fit.[/i] Some of this is due to those who fought and for that we should be grateful and remember them [i]in whichever way we see fit.[/i] IMO of course.

Grum, I am not sure that an article from the Daily Mail in 1930 and having a couple of racists as friends proves anything.

I am confident that the many thousands of Poles executed for helping Jews were in fact fighting for religious freedom. Not as an intellectual idea but to protect their friends and neighbours.

Maybe I am wrong, and the treatment of the Jews and political opponents of Nazism was never discussed in Parliament in the 1930's.

I am also confident that political freedom was a factor for everyone in Europe at the time, since their own was clearly at stake.

TV presenter gets racist and sexist abuse for not wearing a poppy: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/13/charlene-white-itv-news-presenter-remembrance-day-poppy

As a side question, how should we have handled the action against the 7/7 bombings, 9/11 etc, this modern war on terror?

This is the point I brought up with my partner and friends. No-one gave me a valid answer other than 'they killed people in our country'. A simplistic view yes, but not the right one?

This I have never understood. A group of Egyptians led by a Saudi attack America; response is to attack Iraq?

It is often said that people have children to ensure they are remembered; the same is said of scientists and artists, who make their mark on the world, that they may be held in esteem after their passing.

By constantly remembering the exploits of people who in many instances were forced against their will by their country to fight, are we not perpetuating the glory of war?

Be interesting to see how many of the powerful elites are either direct shareholders, or in league with the arms industry, as there is still handsome profit to be made from the business of war...

By constantly remembering the exploits of people who in many instances were forced against their will by their country to fight, are we not perpetuating the glory of war?

I don't wear a poppy as I believe that the state that sends people to war should be wholly responsible for their post-war welfare, rather then hiving it off to charity.

stories like the ITV news reporter above and google being attacked for not having a big enough poppy on their website, puts me off wearing one tbh

not to mention that the last decade of wars seem to have benefited no one and killed millions of civilians and soldiers

It all seems to have become something for politicians and UKIP and the EDL and their sympathisers to bash the public round the head with

fwiw, I did put some money in the poppy appeal tub in the post office, but didnt take a poppy, though they were behind the glass

Found the article grum linked to very provoking.
http://www.ihr.org/news/weber_ww2_may08.html
However I noticed the Institute for Historical Review (the source) has a rather alarming affiliations if their wikipedia entry is anything to go by:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Historical_Review

st colin - Member
As a side question, how should we have handled the action against the 7/7 bombings, 9/11 etc, this modern war on terror?

7/7 happened after we invaded afgahnistan and iraq

infact each of those bombers were recruited, converted and motivated by those wars , if we hadnt started blowing those places up they probably wouldnt have killed all those people on the tube!

Found the article grum linked to very provoking.
http://www.ihr.org/news/weber_ww2_may08.html

This I have never understood. A group of Egyptians led by a Saudi attack America; response is to attack Iraq?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/10445723/Afghanistan-opium-poppy-cultivation-at-record-high.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24919056

Makes you proud to be British.

No you didn't.
No one on here has suggested that we fought WWII to save the Jews.

Well, they've suggested that religious freedom for the Jews was one of the primary motivations for going to war. Which it wasn't.

Here was Churchill on anti-semitism in an unpublished article from 1937:

"For it may be that, unwittingly, they are inviting persecution — that they have been partly responsible for the antagonism from which they suffer."

RichPenny WTF:

Grum, I am not sure that an article from the Daily Mail in 1930 and having a couple of racists as friends proves anything.

Really, how on earth have you come up with the claim that I have a couple of 'racists as friends'? Because I mentioned that I know some Poles who aren't very happy about what happened to their country in WWII?

Given that WWII apparently started to protect Polish sovereignty, and Poles fought alongside our army against Hitler - wouldn't you be a bit pissed off if your country was then abandoned to Soviet control for the next 40 years (while we celebrate our noble victory for freedom)?

Found the article grum linked to very provoking.
http://www.ihr.org/news/weber_ww2_may08.html

However I noticed the Institute for Historical Review (the source) has a rather alarming affiliations if their wikipedia entry is anything to go by:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Historical_Review

Yeah I must admit I didn't look at the background of the website. Still an interesting article though.

We do seem to have re-written history to make it sound like everyone was always firmly on the side of the Jews vs evil Hitler. Actually there was a fair amount of admiration for Hitler in the 1930s, and anti-semitism was rife.

Anyone would think the money for your poppy goes straight to the EDL the way you lot are carrying on.
It goes to the British legion who do a lot to help families of soldiers killed in action and veterans, they help pick up the pieces when the army/government/local authorities do not.
Don't like the symbolism/media spin? Put the money in the pot but don't wear the poppy then.

Hear, hear, Mr Smith! Well put.

But MrS, you are missing the point about making political capital out of a simple mark of remembrance - just look above!! 😉

(but +1 to you and flashy)

Yes, because it's important that we don't question or debate when we feel uncomfortable about promoting militarism and jingoism.

It goes to the British legion who do a lot to help families of soldiers killed in action and veterans, they help pick up the pieces when the army/government/local authorities do not.

Well, the government should support the armed forces and their families properly - maybe we need to pay more tax to allow them to do so? But those people did choose to enter the military - there's an awful lot of victims of the conflicts they have taken part in that didn't choose to get involved, and that get virtually no support/help whatsoever.

of course the entire issue is politicised
[img] [/img]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-24911880

hearing dave and eds PMQs pre-prepared tributes was rather tragic too, considering that charity is required to fill the gap in supporting returned troops when the state doesnt, and of course being responsible for sending them to war in the first place

exactly grum. there is an underlying current that if you question anything to do with the military, whether it be refusing to wear a poppy, donate to the Legion, or question the Heroes branding that is universally banded about then you are selfish or disrespectful to those who died in WWI and WWII.

I think we are only a few years away from small poppy lapel badges being worn year round by some folk

Anyone would think the money for your poppy goes straight to the EDL the way you lot are carrying on.

Don't like the symbolism/media spin? Put the money in the pot but don't wear the poppy then.

It just seems that you have to wear a poppy

FWIW having visited the fields what it taught me was what a terrible waster of human life it was and why we should avoid such senseless slaughter
I used to wear the white poppy but it was not worth the grief from folk who iuse poor arguments like those Mr smith.
It was disrespectful apparently and they died for my freedom - the irony was lost on them and I imagine most folk there wish they had not seen the slaughter of their friends for so little

THM support for pour military is meant to be the default political position even when they are sent to do illegal wars for spurious reasons - why am I mean to support these brave folk doing this? Its not done in my name nor in the populations name. The reality is without [s] soldiers[/s]our brave heroes Blair could never have done this. Clearly the politicians have the lionshare of the blame

What I always remember is the senseless slaughter

grum - Member
Well, the government should support the armed forces and their families properly - maybe we need to pay more tax to allow them to do so?

Or the MoD could factor in the cost of care before entering into pointless and illegal wars.

JY, like you I remember the senseless slaughter. But I am also happy to support the activities of the RBL

http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/get-involved/how-to-give/where-your-money-goes

The rest is, to borrow one of our favourite phrases, largely a STRAW MAN.

THM, you wouldn't be haughtily dismissing others' opinions without offering any real point of your own would you? That would come as a massive surprise.

yes its great advice to give money to things you are not comfortable with

So you're not comfortable giving to a charity that helps and supports families who've lost loved ones and helps injured men and women?

Whether or not you agree with the reasons why they need help, the simple fact that the government doesn't provide the support they need means that someone else (in this case a charity) has to step in and help provide it.

As I see it, the fact that the Legion is militarily based is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned, there are still people who need help and support. I think it's called being compassionate....

I also dont give money to religious charities who can also do a lot of good.
Forgive my lack of compassion 😕

Do you give money to a charity that does this to the other side - perhaps donate to an Iraqi/Afghani victims of war fund - just wondering how far your compassion travels?

THM i bow to your experience of wearing a white poppy and what happened

your right we dont call it help for heroes and no one expects us to support out troops evben though almost no one supports the war

Thanks for correcting me with that well crafted argument 🙄

Forgive my made up arguments 🙄

Grum, try a little better as that is poor trolling even by your standards. I have made several posts with my opinion on this thread and don't forget how dismissive you were of my anti-military points to my MP just a few weeks ago!

For a simple soul like me, it is equally simple. We remember those who gave their lives and what this means and we give money to an organisation that provides very worthy support. The rest is noise.

But feel free to make political points and to keep trolling. You obviously enjoy it.

No need to bow JY, that is quite unnecessary. Unless its for 2 minutes once a year and in the correct direction. Getting a straw man down to a fine art:

Do you give money to a charity that does this to the other side - perhaps donate to an Iraqi/Afghani victims of war fund - just wondering how far your compassion travels?

dan1980 - your reasoning is what bugs me. It's obvious what you are getting at by saying "you're not comfortable helping a charity that supports injured men and women?" i.e. "what a selfish bastard you must be".

He made it clear he was not comfortable supporting a charity that supports people who voluntarily join an organisation that is sent overseas to kill people. I would say it is not an unreasonable position to take.

If people really cared about the welfare of service personnel then why not write to your MP or set up petitions on change.org to try to shame elected representatives into making things better for these people once they come home and are invalided out the service?

Easier to stick 20p in a tin once a year and pretend you properly give a shit though, isn't it? Rule Britannia

He is trolling - AWESOME
you may disagree with how I feel on the poppy but the premises are in no way flawed - you know this which is why after two posts you have not commented on them only sniped at me then at Grum.

PS TJ always said he had answered the question - just saying like

OH hilarious - have you ever worn a white poppy and can you comment on what happens if you do ? We both know the answer so your comments are somewhat pointless but hey you keep digging dude- its what they died for

What's the collective noun for trolls?

Please ignore what I said about people being free to make policical comments (however wrong!) But if you want to correct yourself, you can start at the point.. "and isn't that the real point". It's even on this page to make life easier.

Alternatively just keep trolling.

In the circumstances pretty poor the cheapen, "what they died for". But not really a surprise. Have a good afternoon, enough of this for me.

I'm happy to support ex-soldiers even if I don't agree with the wars they fought in. A lot of them don't agree either but armies like estate agents/bankers are a nessarcary evil. It's a tough job that can result in physical and mental issues after service (if you don't get killed). It's up to the individual if they don't appreciate the media's portrayal or spin or don't agree with a governments decision to go to war.
Like I said for me it's about helping those who did a tough job and need help and support after leaving active service. I met William Speakman VC (the bearded chap in the poppy appeal posters) who now in his eighties is living in sheltered accommodation. He told me how he first saw the legion helping veterans of the Great War when he was a child in Manchester, when he was asked to be part of the 'ad campaign' he said he would gladly help when the legion had done so much for him and those he served with and the families of the many friends he lost.
Me wanting to support those people having met several who benefited from the legions help doesn't mean I have to wear a poppy or agree with a government who went to war.

A poor argument? I don't care what you do with your money but I cant see how you can convince me that the reasons for war or the political spin on the poppy appeal mean donating to help others is a bad thing.

It just seems that you have to wear a poppy

People died so you are not forced to wear political symbols by the state.

your reasoning is what bugs me

Fair enough, but as I see it, applying your logic which seems to be saying any suffering they and their families experience is self inflicted, as they volunteered, means that folk shouldn't give to cancer charities (after all some 50% of all cancers are caused by factors we have control over) or the BHF (as only fat, beer swilling, lard eaters have heart attacks) etc. etc.

I very much doubt many service personnel sign up, solely on the basis they get to go and shoot at people. You seem to forget the humanitarian roles the military take part in, trying to save lives.

I give to charities that help people out, regardless of how they've found themselves in their situation because generally, the people dishing out the cash at the far end, actually care about the people they are helping, unlike the tools we have running the country who would sell their own mothers if it got them some more votes. Pissing about with an ePetition to get these soulless festering sores to actually do their jobs seems somewhat pointless.

Nah, never have never will, it's not my responsibility to support soldiers. You don't want injured, don't go to war.

For a simple soul like me, it is equally simple. We remember those who gave their lives and what this means and we give money to an organisation that provides very worthy support. The rest is noise.

I'm not trolling at all - suggesting that everything that doesn't fit into your view on the matter is 'noise' is pretty insulting/patronising don't you think?

Especially on such an emotive topic.

fair enough Dan but I would say that people don't willingly choose to get cancer even though they may willingly expose themselves to risk factors.

I think the reasons people sign up are many and varied.

Perhaps there is family tradition. Maybe trying to live up to forefathers to went to the world wars?

Because they believe in the military and feel proud wearing the uniform

For economic reasons

BUt I also think there will be many who want to see a bit of action.

I think the reasons people sign up are many and varied.

Perhaps there is family tradition. Maybe trying to live up to forefathers ... ?

Because they believe ... and feel proud

For economic reasons

So very like being a fisherman or farmer. Being a professional soldier is just a job - reasonably dangerous, but so are lots of jobs. Why are soldiers all "heroes" but those in other dangerous jobs aren't?

but those in other dangerous jobs aren't

who says they aren't?

So I no longer wear a poppy, nor have done so since 2002 because of Iraq. (in answer to the original question).

I have just today set up a monthly payment for a very small amount to a hospital which cares for ex-services personnel. I thought long and hard about it before doing so. I despise the jingoistic union flag waving triumphalism that was on show on Saturday on the BBC Festival of Remembrance. I cringe at the 'Help for Heroes' slogan.

But on the other hand i'm prepared to give a small amount to a local cause which will still care for a few dwindling numbers of WWII veterans but if a guy in his 20s or 30s who joined up because it's theonly job he could get when he left school gets some benefit from it too then I don't have a problem either.