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Why on earth did you need to make that last comment?
Because there have been a few [url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/10/remembrance-sunday-cenotaph-church-of-england ]articles mentioning the religious involvement at the Cenotaph[/url] and it was a thought that occurred to me at the time on Sunday when there seemed to be a lot of praising of the Christian God going on, rather than remembering those of all faiths and none who have died in war.
I have no idea at all what you're on about with the 3D in movies or the 🙄 at the end, but the whole tone of your comment seems rather out of place on this thread.
So they stand behind newsreaders at 11 o'clock and make sure they do some proper remembering? Or do you mean it's compulsory for them to wear a poppy?
Certainly the latter. If anyone on TV dares not to wear one, the complaints flood in.
Which is why, as I said, you get Countryfile segments obviously filmed in summer*, where everyone is wearing a pristine (and presumably handed out by the producer) poppy.
*Unless Staffordshire's deciduous trees are still in full leaf in October/November, that is.
My biggest problem is that I get the feeling that the type of people who are the most ardent for people to wear a poppy would have been the same ones handing out white feathers during WW1.
My biggest problem is that I get the feeling that the type of people who are the most ardent for people to wear a poppy would have been the same ones handing out white feathers during WW1.
Spot on.
Let's try not to turn this unpleasant, especially today. But Mike I hope that you noticed that leaders of a cross section of religions played an important role at The Cenotaph as I am sure a lot of atheits and agnostics did too. So did representative of different nations etc. Perhaps your comments might need some adjustment
I don't wear one....not really sure why not.
Perhaps your comments might need some adjustment
I think the general tone of the thread is anti-thought police, not pro.
I am not suggesting otherwise. Merely pointing out that certain, specific observations may be slightly misplaced. Anyway enough from me, I don't want to be guilty of moving this thread in the wrong direction. There has been enough of that in the past 24hrs.
What I don't like is how it's being extended to all veterans of all subsequent wars. The world wars were special, in terms of the numbers involved, in that most were conscripts, and in the carnage. Subsequent wars have been fought by professional soldiers and have not really been wars of survival - the soldiers in Afghanistan are not fighting to save or protect the UK.
This is why I don't wear or donate any more. always observe the silence and use it to remember my Grandpa. Not that I'm excluding all those who gave their lives but it feels right to think of him as a representative. He survived the war by the way, and I'm just as grateful to those that did make it back.
miketually - Member...there have been a few articles mentioning the religious involvement at the Cenotaph and it was a thought that occurred to me at the time on Sunday when there seemed to be a lot of praising of the Christian God going on, rather than remembering those of all faiths and none who have died in war.
I was at the Cardiff cenotaph yesterday, and there were Christian, Jews, and Muslims there leading prayers side-by-side. Same the university service today. We can rest assured, though, that the men and women who consciously gave of themselves in the two world wars would have been overwhelmingly Christian in this country. Mass migration, as we know it now, did not really start until after WW2; hence, the association of Christian practice with Remembrance Day. It would be entirely appropriate now, though, to include others.
I have no idea at all what you're on about with the 3D in movies or the at the end, but the whole tone of your comment seems rather out of place on this thread.
Sorry. I'm going to give up even trying to be funny. Woppit did this on his thread about 3D cinema. I assumed you might have read it. I alluded to it merely as a joke about the apparent irrelevence. Apologies for offence.
I don't wear one.
Why? I detest war, the military, weapons, and everything to do with it and would rather not remember it each year.. There are still ongoing wars, what do you wear to commemorate/acknowledge those? Nothing! And what good would it do if you did?
I hate politicians and all religions too. Those ****s start wars!
Edited.
Can't be fussed.
I never have. Just because someone has decided that's the way to 'remember', doesn't mean I have to join in.
We had 2 minutes silence before our Sunday league football game yesterday morning, perfectly oberved by all involved.
I didn't wear one this year - consciously and for the first time. I did donate and observe the silences. Personally I have deep feelings and regard for those whose lost their lives or health - whether civilian or service personnel. I am not sure that I like the direction and emphasis which seems to currently be prevalent regarding poppy wearing - some of which I have seen here too. I also am not comfortable with remembering only soldiers of the commonwealth, to my mind the remembrance of the fallen or our former enemies is also very important, and this isn't formally part of Remembrance.
I am very firmly against commemorating the start of the First World War next year and will not be taking part. Celebrating the end of the war is a completely different matter...
This is an interesting article from Robert Fisk of The Independent, posted on the Stop The War Coalition website
[url= http://www.stopwar.org.uk/news/do-those-who-flaunt-the-poppy-on-their-lapels-know-that-they-mock-the-war-dead#.UoEXmnBM9Z6 ]do-those-who-flaunt-the-poppy-on-their-lapels-know-that-they-mock-the-war-dead[/url]
Both my folks were in the forces and so whilst I do respect the sacrifices made by our armed forces (especially those that fought in the first and second world wars) I am a bit disturbed by the apparent fetishisation of the poppy that has taken place over the last few years. The BBC seems to be the worst offender with even the entire audience on A Question of Sport being issued with poppies in the episode I watched the other night.
My dad, who served with the RAF for 12 years, has never worn a poppy. He doesn't see the point.
Not sure Fisk is explaining himself clearly enough there, though I agree with his sentiments.
This article was much more interesting...
[url= http://www.stopwar.org.uk/news/bbc-s-jeremy-paxman-told-to-apologise-for-calling-david-cameron-a-complete-idiot-on-world-war-i#.UoEaiye7QRY ]http://www.stopwar.org.uk/news/bbc-s-jeremy-paxman-told-to-apologise-for-calling-david-cameron-a-complete-idiot-on-world-war-i#.UoEaiye7QRY[/url]
Three religions were present at our local service yesterday: CofE, Methodist and Salvation Army. But, this probably isn't the time or the place for this discussion
So you don't like Poppy's cause lots of people are promoting them? Let's face it the bbc has to fill its airtime somehow and unlike other commercial stations it is serving a public service and not pandering to the popular masses - god knows we see enough footballers, one D and lady gaga on more than enough of the other channels, so just switch channels if you don't like what the bbc are broadcasting. For me it's all about taking a few minutes a year out of my busy and pretty selfish life to reflect and remember and thank those who have made the ultimate sacrifice so I can enjoy my freedoms and bring my kids up in a world in relative peace and security - more peaceful and secure than it ever has been in human history for sure. And that peace and security has come at a very high price. So for me it's not about endorsing wars I may not agree with or politicians I may not agree with. I guess its different things to different people. At least we get a choice which is sort of the point. It's also a good charitable cause to support those soldiers returning from conflict who bear the physical and mental scars of the horrors they've been through.
@Miketually - we do the same, always attended the village remembrance parade and service at the memorial. As an atheist I don't participate in the religious observances or the national anthem. I always buy a poppy as my 2 grandfathers fought in WWI and my father in WWII, they lost lots of friends and I just feel it's appropriate to remember everyone who died both those in the armed forces and civilians on both sides.
This was an interesting move by Dan Snow: [url= http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/article1332656.ece ]http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/article1332656.ece[/url]
more peaceful and secure than it ever has been in human history for sure
Seriously, c'mon?
I noticed on Strictly that Len and someone else were wearing normal poppies and not the glitz-ed up fashion poppies that the BBC were obviously putting on them.
I don't need a flower on my shirt to remember. It's sad how many people are demonized for not wearing one.
Absolutely Rene. When has it ever been more peaceful? You can visit more countries of the world as a tourist now with relative (common sense rules apply) safety and security than ever before. Since the end of the Cold War the nuclear threat is looking less urgent, though not completely irradicatef, When has it been more safe? You can even visit war torn countries now as a tourist, I have Syrian colleagues who have returned home to visit their families for holiday, so the conflicts that do exist are not necessarily as widespread as the bbc and wider media would have us believe, though I'll stick with Majorca or the South of France for my hols next year all the same.
I don't. For numerous reasons, but really because I don't like being told when, where, how and for whom I should mourn.
+1
ormondroyd - MemberMe. I have major reservations about the way the campaign has shifted over the last five years.
Last week the Poppy Appeal's official twitter feed included pictures of smiling young children in "Future Soldier" t-shirts.
what he said.
i was brought up to think that the day of rememberance was to remind us of the horror of war, the cost to all sides - even our 'enemies'.
but it's just gone weird, and quite scary.
(i still put a couple of quid in the pot, as i hope it'll help someone)
Posted this in another thread but:
Some of the comments are sickening and just show the mindset of 'poppy fascism'.
It all just seems quite jingoistic and goodwill towards the services is used cynically to garner support for strategic/economic military action.
I find people trying to paint WWI and WWII in the same light fairly sickening as well.
i was brought up to think that the day of rememberance was to remind us of the horror of war, the cost to all sides - even our 'enemies'.
+1
I don't need a flower on my shirt to remember. It's sad how many people are demonized for not wearing one.+1
At work today, the only person I saw wearing a poppy was the receptionist in our building. No one in our company was (that I noticed), nor at the gym at lunchtime, nor at the Vets this evening.
Every year I buy a poppy and observe the 2 mins silence. But I don't wear the poppy. Personally I don't feel the need to advertise the fact that I've shown my support and remembered those that have lost their lives.
So you don't like Poppy's cause lots of people are promoting them? Let's face it the bbc has to fill its airtime somehow and unlike other commercial stations it is serving a public service and not pandering to the popular masses - god knows we see enough footballers, one D and lady gaga on more than enough of the other channels, so just switch channels if you don't like what the bbc are broadcasting.
I may have missed some posts, but I don't think people are complaining about the BBC's actual coverage of Remembrance, but the forced wearing of the poppy for fear of negative comment.
I used to wear one, but not any more. My thought's are more with all the innocent(armed or un-armed) killed in all the wars, and I observe the silence out of respect to them.
Wobbliscott - human history spans many many years and as peaceful as it may be now compared to recent and modern history, I've got to think there was once a more peaceful time long before nuclear weapons and war torn countries even existed.
Then again I've a very poor grasp of history so I should probably have kept quiet.
it seems to be true though...
[url= http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html ]TED linky[/url]
I did this year, but admit that I have been lazy or forgotten in the past. Really up to the individual as stated by most people here. Should not be ostricised one way or the other.
A friend said that when on a night out during the week was verbally abused and spat on by some idiot for wearing one though. I think the guy was drunk.
So you don't like Poppy's cause lots of people are promoting them?
Straw man much?
why would i wear a poppy?
WW1 was hell as was WW2, things don't get better.
But a question, why did the soldiers die in the trenches of WW1, was it to improve their conditions, to protect their vote???
If you didn't know most soldiers dieing could not vote and it was only the reforms of 1918 that gave most men the vote, but only because so many were disenfranchised by serving in the forces, most certainly not all, and certainly not women.
So who were the soldiers actually protecting and from whom?
Maybe they died to benefit the same group who have ruled the UK for centuries in one form or other?
As for WW2, why did it happen? Look in part at WW1 and Treaty of Versailles.
I can perfectly well remember those who died without having to prove anything to anyone, without having to associate myself with the charade that is the cenotaph, the politicians speeches.
The Daily Mail hijacked it and turned it into hero worship, so no. It's become like some sort of national mythology cult of the type Kershaw describes in "The Hitler Myth".
I remember in my own way, namely by having piles of books that account the experiences of the people that served (eg I'm reading "Tumult in The Clouds" and James Jones "The Thin Red Line" right now)
If my uncles (who were both snipers), my grandfather who fought at Monte Casino and my grandfather who served in the RFC were alive they'd all be disgusted by it.
My grandad stopped wearing it- he reckoned that as soon as people started feeling like they had to wear it, it became completely meaningless.
I donate and buy a poppy. Over the past 2 weeks or so I've sometimes forgotten to wear it when I've left the house. No biggie.
It's up to the individual if they want to wear a poppy or not, just as its up to the individual to decide how or what they remember. No problems either way.
I've been the recipient of some narky comments such as "why you f*&%ing wearing that?", just as I've heard voices disapproving of "youth not showing respect by wearing a poppy". I dislike these people. A lot.
Remembrance Day has become more about whether you wear a poppy often enough or not, and complaining about Sandra from Accounts who tapped her keyboard too loudly during the 2 minutes silence than about actually remembering.
People care too much about what other people do.
related to this, just seen a story on channel 4 news about a 99 year old serviceman who passed away with no living relations or friends. the funeral director appealed for people to attend his funeral, which found its way onto facebook and 100s of people turned up. all well and good, but why not go and see him when he was alive? or someone else who's in a nursing home now? the world is full of old people, ex soldiers, dying in nursing homes...
I don't. Cos the ones who [i]should[/i] remember, don't.
Versailles didn't cause WWII: Imperialism and expansionism were part of the manifesto of the Prussian state as created by Bismark; basically the Prussians were doing in Europe what Britain, France and Belgium were doing in Africa etc.
I think the comment about the ordinary man not having the vote is very pertinent: The rank and file of WWI was much less surprised about being asked to climb out of the trenches to almost certain death; after all that is how wars had always been fought till then. The scale of the carnage was in proportion to that of Napoleonic battles (even in regards to the effect on the European populations in general).
The big difference in Britain was that there was conscription for the first time and how through the media, people here were so much more aware of the carnage.
I think the comments about religion could be seen from a different angle: I know several Ministers who are quite appalled that their Sunday Service turns into the Edinburgh Military Tattoo for the day.