They are striking to stay on the same money they signed up for and, more importantly, to prevent the removal of the safeguards that currently protect them from working stupid hours.
FactCheck doesn't wholly agree
As far as we can see, no one will lose immediately because the government is offering “pay protection” for anyone who would potentially see their pay cut thanks to the changes.
[url= http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-junior-doctors-pay-cut/21890 ]FactCheck[/url]
Neither side is covering themselves in glory.
FactCheck doesn't wholly agree
From that same site -
"We should note though, that the promise to protect current pay only lasts until 2019, and we don’t know what will happen after that."
We can only speculate about what happens in 2019.
Yeah Jeremy Hunt's last minute letter tried to avoid the strike by offering a classic Prisoner's Dilemma that basically said: "Agree to this contract and we'll protect your pay and it'll only be the ones signing new contracts that suffer"
Three problems with that, apart from the general morality.
Firstly he only offers three years of protection. Secondly Junior Doctors rotate to different hospitals every six months, so they'd soon be required to sign new contracts anyway. Thirdly it does absolutely nothing to address the issue of the removal of financial safeguards that protect them from stupidly long hours.
FactCheck doesn't wholly check facts, it would appear. If I was purporting to offer a national "fact" service I'd do a bit more than briefly get the YTS lad to scan the websites of the 2 sidesFactCheck doesn't wholly agree
7 day NHS working is coming, whether or not it's actually a solution to anything. Many departments/disciplines are being railroaded into it; the docs are just lucky that they have a union with a bit of a backbone.
Neither side is covering themselves in glory.
Is that the best example of the BMA not covering themselves in glory that you could find?
Two emergency appointments for a cold sore.
As an aside, I once had an emergency appointment for a cold sore. Get one on your eye and it can permanently damage your vision. My GP immediately referred me to the eye hospital.
Get one on your eye and it can permanently damage your vision.
Oh god that sounds unpleasant...
Oh god that sounds unpleasant...
I should add that it turned out to be an infected scratch, which cleared up with antibiotic cream. My GP was concerned because I had a cold sore on my lip at the time.
From my initial phone call about it, I had a phone consultation, GP examination, referral to the eye hospital, diagnosis, prescription and back at work in 2 hours. God bless the NHS!
point to repeat that they are NOT striking for more money.
To be fair, it's easy to get the wrong idea. The headline on BBC radio 4 news at 6 yesterday was that doctors had voted to strike having rejected an 11% pay rise. They may as well get just5min to write the news for them.
Is that the best example of the BMA not covering themselves in glory that you could find?
I haven't really tried, I just happened to come across it so posted it here as it presents a more nuanced picture than either side presents. This is hardly surprising and is common in disputes. The sooner both sides sit down rather than wage war through the press the better. However they don't even seem to be able to agree on how to go about that. So I am pretty comfortable with my view that neither side is covering themselves in glory.
The sooner both sides sit down rather than wage war through the press the better. However they don't even seem to be able to agree on how to go about that. So I am pretty comfortable with my view that neither side is covering themselves in glory.
I've only got a bit of an overview into this but I'm pretty sure there's something like 23 points on the new contract and the government will not negotiate over 22 of them, something like that. I think the BMA ae happy to talk but they've not really been given the opportunity.
Funny how hearing some of the guys in the office grumbling about junior doctors pay. They'll be the same ones come Monday grumbling that their football team needs to be paying players more than £50K per week to attract better talent.
Those on here decrying doctors have obviously never needed them. I fully support their cause.
Just had lunch with junior doctor in genito urinary medicine
the closures of the already oversubscribed clinics across london sound like a really really bad idea, but sexual health is now the problem of local councils (responsibility for Public Health was transferred over to them earlier this year) and considering the cuts theyve had to make, her advice was basically dont have sex with anyone in the next few years, theres gonna be and STD explosion!
and get private health cover or your screwed anyway.
TBH we should be doing more minor work at GP surgeries. Was in Spain they had a pharmacy, gp surgery, physios etc all on one site.
Are you Jeremy Hunt?
This is exactly what JH wants to do, well this or break the NHS down in to bite sized parts that make it easier to sell of to the private sector. Google Vanguard to learn more.
Having an Ultrasound Machine in every GP practice with a trained radiographer is indeed a wonderful idea. However that would bankrupt the NHS overnight and financially makes no sense unless people are prepared to contribute much more to the NHS.
So far the feedback coming back from Vanguard is that care in the community is going to cost billions more (no shit Sherlock) + that patient feedback is that they do not want to attend a clinic or have an elective operation on a Sunday morning.
I've only got a bit of an overview into this but I'm pretty sure there's something like 23 points on the new contract and the government will not negotiate over 22 of them, something like that. I think the BMA ae happy to talk but they've not really been given the opportunity.
Which the government deny - [url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/477537/hunt-malawana-nov.pdf ]Letter from Hunt to JD Chair[/url]
It is all claim and counter-claim and rather unedifying.
Well, not exactly. He repeats his threat to impose a contract if things don't turn out his way. What sort of negotiation is that?
What's really unedifying is Hunt misquoting statistics - basically lying - to support his position.
Well, not exactly. He repeats his threat to impose a contract if things don't turn out his way. What sort of negotiation is that?
A fairly normal one, he is setting out his red line.
That letter says : [i]"As you know many of recommendations will be welcomed by juniors"[/i] (true, and many of them won't be) [i]"It is not unreasonable after three years to need to move forward with the new contract without the threat of BMA veto." [/i] (so not actually up for negotiation then, despite what he says).
The BMA now want to get ACAS involved and Hunt is currently refusing that too.
To be fair, it's easy to get the wrong idea. The headline on BBC radio 4 news at 6 yesterday was that doctors had voted to strike having rejected an 11% pay rise.
Seems to me this is a very deliberate tactic. Steer the debate away from patient safety concerns, steer it towards money, publicise them rejecting the "11% pay offer" (without acknowledging that it is actually a pay cut), push the "greedy doctors want more money" line and leave it to the struggling Joe Public to be outraged that these filthy-rich doctors want more than 11% when the rest of us haven't had a pay rise in years.
A fairly normal one, he is setting out his red line.
Fair enough, looks like I'm moving to Scotland, abroad or even Wales 😯
Which doctors are going to be left working in the NHS in England?
Why won't they meet with him ?
Why won't they meet with him ?
The BMA has offered to go to independent arbitration. The government has refused.
A fairly normal one, he is setting out his red line.
FWIW i am prepared to discuss with my kids their bed time but my line in the sand is that it the time I decide based on evidence i already have ..I cannot be any fairer than that can I
Its not normal to offer a negotiation whilst saying you will impose it. Its not a negotiation is it it is just a discussion where they attempt to persuade you and will do it anyway if you continue ot disagree.
[quote=ransos said]
The BMA has offered to go to independent arbitration. The government has refused.
Yeah but why won't they meet with Hunt ? Wouldn't you do that first ?
Yeah but why won't they meet with Hunt ? Wouldn't you do that first ?
Sorry but this is nicked from another source.
[i]The junior doctors I spoke to believe a strike is unavoidable because Jeremy Hunt has not allowed room for negotiation. This is not a rash decision: the BMA and the government have been discussing the junior doctor contract since 2012, but no satisfactory progress has been made and there has been a lack of meaningful negotiation. The Doctors’ and Dentists’ Review Body, who are advising the government, have recommended 23 changes to the contract. However, the government have informed the BMA that 22 of these are “non negotiable”. The BMA has repeatedly said to the government that they would return to the negotiation table if there was more than one recommendation to negotiate.[/i]
Yeah but why won't they meet with Hunt ?
They will - with ACAS mediating. Clearly there is an issue of trust on both sides, so I can't see why the government is refusing, if they are serious about negotiations without pre-conditions.
Seems to me this is a very deliberate tactic. Steer the debate away from patient safety concerns, steer it towards money,
Sure - that is *unt's tactic, but why is the BBC using it as their only description of the dispute?
However, the government have informed the BMA that 22 of these are “non negotiable”.
And so the circle becomes complete.
And so the circle becomes complete.
Ah, you have had the light bulb moment where you now understand why doctors have been unhappy. Its not just about docs taking a pay cut, it is also about patient safety 💡
A fairly normal one, he is setting out his red line.
So they're not preconditions, they're just his red lines which he won't negotiate on? And that's ok?
[s]Which[/s] Witch doctors are going to be left working in the NHS in England
FTFY
dragon - MemberTBH we should be doing more minor work at GP surgeries. Was in Spain they had a pharmacy, gp surgery, physios etc all on one site. It would also help to bring ultrasound, x-ray etc out and then reduce hospital load. Why can't a pregnant mum get an ultrasound at her local gp?
It doesn't make sense to distribute everything but I got most of my physio for my busted hip in my local GP surgery. The GP surgery at my workplace has a pharmacy facility. No doubt it could happen more but it does happen.
But ultrasound and xray? Centralising gets the hardware and expertise where it's needed and where we get the most use out of it, doesn't make any sense to put expensive kit in GPs surgeries if it doesn't get used enough.
kimbers - MemberJust had lunch with junior doctor in genito urinary medicine
the closures of the already oversubscribed clinics across london sound like a really really bad idea, but sexual health is now the problem of local councils (responsibility for Public Health was transferred over to them earlier this year) and considering the cuts theyve had to make, her advice was basically dont have sex with anyone in the next few years, theres gonna be and STD explosion!
Aye. But of course, there's no NHS cuts... First you cut the thing from the NHS, [i]then[/i] you cut it. As if that were any ****ing different.
So they're not preconditions, they're just his red lines which he won't negotiate on? And that's ok?
The 23 recommendations aren't preconditions, but any solution they come to must allow the creation of the 7 day NHS - that is two different things - you only have to look the recommendations ([url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/445742/50576_DDRB_report_2015_WEB_book.pdf ]pages x and xi[/url]) to see that most of them deal with things that aren't mission critical to such as result, so it is not the same thing.
any solution they come to must allow the creation of the 7 day NHS
"[b]Junior doctors already work seven days[/b] and are the backbone of medical care in hospitals at weekends and at night."
-- Jeremy Hunt in his letter to Junior Doctors
mefty - Memberany solution they come to must allow the creation of the 7 day NHS
Which is tricky, because first they'll have to abolish the existing 7 day NHS to make that possible.
Hey, is this a good time to mention the Hunt Effect again?
http://www.bmj.com/content/351/bmj.h4596/rr-52
But it already is a 7 day NHS!how can people still not see that?
Too slow, see above 🙂
Great, so it is red line that they need not be concerned with.
Great, so it is red line that they need not be concerned with.
Yes, it's difficult to see why they have a problem with trusting Hunt.
Incidentally my missus is a "less than full-time" junior doctor - a decision we took so that our kids will at least vaguely recognise her.
She's working today, Saturday and Sunday, 9am till 10pm. She was working Wednesday and Thursday, 8:30 till 5.
So that's 56 rota'd hours this week, not including the evenings she spent working on her training and e-portfolio, or the all-day course she went to on Tuesday, her day off.
Can you see why they are worried about being made to work longer hours?
[quote=mefty opined]Great, so it is red line that they need not be concerned with.
Interesting way of accepting you were wrong.
Interesting way of accepting you were wrong.
Not at all - just responding in kind to the favoured STW tactic of making a smart arse point that doesn't address the issue.
She's working today, Saturday and Sunday, 9am till 10pm. She was working Wednesday and Thursday, 8:30 till 5.
I can't see how that is safe. I couldn't guarantee that my last patient of the day got the quality of care that the first person did if I was working those hours.
And to think that is classed as part time.
She's working today, Saturday and Sunday, 9am till 10pm. She was working Wednesday and Thursday, 8:30 till 5.
I can't see how that is safe. I couldn't guarantee that my last patient of the day got the quality of care that the first person did if I was working those hours.And to think that is classed as part time.
That sucks for part time.
My 'Full Time' week this week. Monday/Tues 8am till 8.30pm Wed/Thurs 8am till 5pm Fri/Sat/Sun 8pm till 8.30am - a cool 80 hours. In fact Ive already worked 43 hours this week before I start 3 night shifts. I really dont want to work any longer hours - I dont know how it would be possible!
When I sliced my hand up, the doctor who saw me was at the wrong end of an 11 hour shift, at 3am. When he went to do the ring block on my finger, he had a wobbly moment and stuck the needle right through my finger and into the work surface 😆 It did wake him up... Poor bugger was horrified at the lapse, but it's not like he created the situation. It's just mad that we consider this normal tbh.
Hunt's comments suggest he's going to reduce the maximum number of hours, but he doesn't say how he's going to staff that change.
As a wee aside; the fact checker page linked earlier states that the new offer sets maximum working hours at 72, but also specifies that overtime rates kick in at 87. So I was wondering... If the limit is 72, why is there anything in there for things that happen at 87? If it's correct (and I don't know), then you'd have to conclude that the 72 hour limit is no such thing really.
It's just mad that we consider this normal tbh.
+1
Not at all - just responding in kind to the favoured STW tactic of making a smart arse point that doesn't address the issue.
Eh...what ..you said they needed to allow the creation of a 7 day NHS everyone pointed out that the NHS is 7 days per week - even Hunt accepts this point
There is nothing smart here its just you being dumb.
