[Closed] doctors on strike

No, I don't doubt it. Didn't they used to at least have the decency (relative to the current lot, not by normal standards) to wait until they'd left politics.

As doctors pretty much sat at the top of everything, they were the targets to knock out as a first pass, and that's been concluded- its really pretty much all over for any other public service now, as these tactics have been so effective.

I wonder who'll be next.

Teachers? Possibly. Though it might be that there's not a lot they can sell off and make money from in teaching.

.....Police?

I'm waiting to see the media campaign begin, and soon, to start gently chipping away at whoever is next in their sights.

They have already done the Police with the usual nonsense spin..such as them having outdated pensions not looked at for decades (They were looked at and revised in 2006 moving from a 30yr 'career' to a 35 yr one) The Police Pensions Act was an existing act of parliament that prevented the Police from getting shafted...so they removed it from the statute books.

The Fire Brigade, led by those donkeys at the FBU (remember the last fire strike in 2002 when their leader, Andy Gilcrist went on expensive meals while his members stood on picket lines not getting paid ? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1424741/It-seems-that-the-FBU-leaders-817-curry-was-just-for-starters.html ) have also failed miserably at battling the Govt (Should have joined forces with the Police Federation and gone on the Public Safety ticket rather than going solo and only talking Fires)

The Armed Forces have also had a good seeing to but that is going somewhat tits up for those idiot at Westminster. They want to cut regular forces and double reservists...problem being that they are failing to get feet in boots for new reservists. http://www.****/news/article-3139817/Army-fails-attract-30-000-reservists-ministers-wanted-boost-military-amid-huge-cuts-number-time-troops.html

I sincerely hope that the NHS will be the straw that breaks the British Publics back and that they will get up off their arses and get more involved. The year 2020 is a long time away

I havent read all the pages so forgive me if my question has been answered elsewhere.
but can anyone explain Labours position on the proposed contract?

I mean if the doctors hope to take on the government to get a better deal, then would Labour be looking to set up a new deal if they get in to power in the next election.

Considering the NHS is a labour favourite, I am surprised I havent heard more from them.
I have been out the country for a bit, so not totally up to date

their position is to sit back and let the tories show their nasty side.

I'm sure they'll come to its rescue next time they're in power 😆

Labour's position- Corbyn's response.

"Jeremy Hunt's decision to impose a contract on junior doctors is provocative and damaging. Rather than helping to resolve this difficult dispute, his action will only inflame it.

The BMA has continued to table proposals to settle the dispute. The fact that the Health Secretary is now simply trying to impose his will rather than negotiate, demonstrates a lack of confidence in his own arguments.

We need to recognise the huge contribution junior doctors make and the years of training they go through to look after us. These are people dedicated to our health and our NHS.

Patients, doctors, the BMA and the public want an agreed settlement. What is now keeping this dispute going are the actions of the Secretary of State himself.

More strikes now look likely. If that happens, it will be clear that the blame lies with the government, not the doctors.

Even at this late stage, I appeal to Jeremy Hunt to go back and negotiate with the BMA.

This government is reckless with our NHS and is now prepared to put patient care at risk in the service of its self-defeating austerity programme."

But he's so crazy he's not even in favour of setting the world on fire, so don't listen to him

I believe that I will personally be losing £1500 PA in the first year after imposition, and losing £4000 PA in the second

It doesn't seem to have even crossed your mind that you're overpaid - entitlement syndrome?

Has it crossed your mind that he earns the money he is paid and doesn't deserve to be forced to do the same job for less?
How happy would you be to have a pay cut in real terms forced upon you whilst everyone was told you were getting a raise? How much would you enjoy that? As much as you did making such an asinine comment?
Arsehole syndrome much?

It doesn't seem to have even crossed your mind that you're overpaid - entitlement syndrome?

Why are they currently overpaid? They could get a job in Wales or Scotland earning more money, and abroad even more.

Are you suggesting they are over paid compared to you ? If you are get your head in a book for the next 15yrs, make bigs sacrifices to your family life, work until your too exhausted to be working, then you too could be an over paid doctor. Get a grip FFS

My wife earns more than x 2 what I earn, and I earn slightly more than the national avg. I am not clever enough to be a doc, and quite frankly I couldn't work the number of hours she works day or night.

Oh and that £4K over payment would just about pay for the exam that Mrs FD has just had to pay for to enable her to continue her training

Lots evidently

Has it crossed your mind that he earns the money he is paid and doesn't deserve to be forced to do the same job for less?

I've been in a job and had a 10% pay cut - didn't like it but it was the circumstances the time.

Arrogant know all syndrome?

Nurses are much less inclined to do hands on care than their non-degree qualified peers of 20 or 30 years ago.

I had to return to this, because it made me so friggin' angry. I've just finished a 12.5 hour shift in an emergency surgical admissions unit, and [b]every[/b] member of the nursing staff - student nurses, health care assistants, diploma-trained nurses, degree-trained nurses, senior staff nurses (several of whom started as ENs) - all worked flat-out in the face of immense pressure, and every one of 'em was "inclined to do hands-on care". Nobody ignored buzzers, nobody acted as if tasks were "beneath them" - the unit would fall apart if that was the case.

How telling that you omit to mention how nurses' clinical responsibilities (and acuity levels on general wards) have vastly increased in recent decades. I've spent the best of twenty years in the NHS, and if there's one thing I know for sure, it's that raw ability & clinical acumen [b]always[/b] shine through, regardless of educational background. There are concerns about the academic content of nursing degree courses (e.g. reflective practice gubbins at the expense of fluid management) and the dubious (i.e. cheaper to employ) overlap with medical roles... but it's utter tripe to suggest that there is a contradiction between academic study and simple (and I use that word in the best possible sense) compassion. What gets described as 'basic care' is not basic at all - it's one of the best opportunities for proper patient assessment... I'd dearly like to see you walk into ITU and complain that the degree-educated nurses therein were "too posh to wash"... and whilst you were there, you could ask about the relationship between patient mortality and nurse:patient ratios. I'm not disputing that neglect happens, and that some people shirk their duty, but FAR more goes wrong because there simply ain't enough boots on the ground... and in the mendacious slimeball Hunt, you have a creature who champions "patient safety" whilst also quashing the NICE work on safe staffing - and now he's pretending that improved weekend services (and, for the record, EVERYBODY would welcome improved weekend cover - but it will be impossible with increased numbers of nursing, OT, PT, clerical & ancillary staff...) can be delivered by stretching existing resources ever more thinly. It's a maths fail - and if you believe him, more fool you.

There are already yawning gaps in acute speciality rotas - an imposed contract will do nothing to fill 'em. Indeed, how ironic that many of the doctors working the "longest hours" (and at weekends) are the ones holding the line in ED, ITU etc. There is a massive disconnect between frontline reality and Hunt's ongoing spin. He is not fit for purpose.

Teef-It's a shame that's happened to you, but why delight in it happening to someone else? I'd have thought it may actually give you a sense of empathy. Wouldn't you have liked to attempt to change that? That's what they are doing. It's a terrible thing to revel in others misfortune because it mirrors your own.
I may be arrogant, in fact my wife would probably agree with you, although I certainly don't claim to know it all. I do get annoyed by people making nasty comments like your last one.

Don't blame teef; the game is divide and conquer.

Good post noteeth.

With one daughter training to be a nurse and another a doctor I listen to them discussing their training, jobs, the NHS and the government. They are far more serious, dedicated, conscientious and motivated than I or any of my peers were at their ages. They are certainly not doing it for the money and aren't afraid of hard work. I despair at some of the comments above. I have lived and worked abroad for years and wouldn't wish for the health care systems of any other country I have experienced. Carp at the care professionals if you want, but then ask yourself if you are really mean it and would wish for them to be badly treated, over worked and demotivated.

Sorry, I thought this was all about doctors being forced to work extended hours that would put their patients in danger?

Strangely all the talk about that seems to have gone quiet, and all that's left appears to be the money...

God no ninfan - it's about the government dismantling the NHS

and all that's left appears to be the money.

Smooth talk from DoH will not paper over the (widening) cracks in cover... personally, medics working weekends in acute care are the [i]last[/i] people I would target for pay-management. Aiming for a cheaper workforce will backfire, IMO.

Thanks gowerboy. One of my younger sisters is a paediatric registrar - and her academic ability and sheer graft far (far) outshines mine. The weasel Hunt, by comparison, makes me want to vomit.

it's about the government dismantling the NHS

Like Scargill and the NCB?

Be interested to see how this pans out. Wales and Scotland are keeping the contract as per current one, so there will be disparity in pay against England.

There may well be a significant shift in people taking up posts there.

Boom there it is teef's response, mind blown! A typical small minded answer, lets all suffer then at least it's fair, fighting for parity of misery! 😥

No wonder the working classes only get crumbs off the table when the majority fall for shafting each other, generation after generation, enjoy the race to the bottom chaps.

Strangely all the talk about that seems to have gone quiet, and all that's left appears to be the money...

And even if that is the case, so what? Paying the people who are tasked with saving our lives a fair wage for the ridiculous amount of work they have to do only seems fair to me.

there are people who look after THE PEOPLE YOU CARE ABOUT MOST in this world, when they are at their MOST VULNERABLE. they run into burning buildings, make decisions on medicine, scrape you up off the road, stop a drunk **** caving your head in, hold your hand when you're scared-for-your-life, or that of your wife/husband/mother/father/brother/sister/!child! they wipe your ass when you have shit yourself, talk to you when there is no-one else, they look after your nan when she doesn't remember who you are anymore. they wipe your sick off your skin and tell you its ok on a daily basis for christ's sake

......... and we pay them less per hr than a ****ing checkout worker in aldi.

what in god's name has led us to this point?
how can anyone possibly be arguing they are not worth their wages let alone a massive raise?
all of them, not just the doctors but the firemen, nurses, carers, front line police, paramedics all of these front line staff who do so much for less than i pay my bloody labourer!
what is wrong with you people?

Sorry, I thought this was all about doctors being forced to work extended hours that would put their patients in danger?

Strangely all the talk about that seems to have gone quiet, and all that's left appears to be the money...

Only by those that think it's fair or don't understand it despite it being explained man? times over.

Been some deleting of teefs posts?

Edit: "...it will impossible [b]without[/b] increased...".

Was typing in anger!

****ing hell. I cannot believe people like teef are looking to put the boot into junior doctors just because they got shafted at their jobs. A race to the bottom benefits noone.

If it's so easy to be a doctor, then why not do it yourself?

All you have to do is:
- Go to university for 5 years, have little to no social life if you want to pass your exams with a decent chance and take on loads of debt.
- Work ridiculous hours for a pittance of an hourly wage.
- Continuously study. Again at the expense of your social life and your family.
- Deal with a fair amount of idiots if you work in A&E, and see things daily that would break your heart. Terminally ill patients, people with no family slowly dying, people losing their dignity, you know, that sort of cheerful thing.

But hey, that doesn't matter. You're being paid £33k a year for doing all this. You should be glad for that and work weekends on top for an even lower hourly rate right.

****. Someone in a very mid level 9-5 IT job could easily be paid that and more. You're begrudging these people who literally save lives daily a fair working contract? The mind ****ing boggles.

Interesting point made above. Are any of the other parties commiting to going back to the previous contracts?

...... and we pay them less per hr than a **** checkout worker in aldi.
what in god's name has led us to this point?

What has lead us to the point where people think working on a checkout is shameful?

People working on checkouts are frequently paying tax/NI which helps to pay for the NHS.

They should be commended.

Any truth in this I wonder?

'Jeremy Hunt - MP for South-West Surrey. Received donations of £32,920 from U.S-based hedge fund CEO Andrew Law. Mr Law is the CEO of Caxton Associates who as of November 2011, owned a market value of $217.659 million in healthcare. He is also funder and board member of Social Finance Ltd, a company which invents new ways to bring finance into public services, and is pioneering the first Social impact Bond for the NHS. Andrew Law has given £1,229,677 to the Conservative party.'

There is nothing wring with working on checkouts but I bet even the most diligent checkout worker would be surprised to learn Hunt thinks his hourly rate and a DR's should be in the same ball park.

There is nothing wring with working on checkouts

I was responding to "**** checkout worker".

Lifted from somewhere else

Not to denigrate those who work in retail obviously but it's a striking comparison. Surely no one can argue that shelf stacking and being a dr are similar jobs in terms of emotional stress and responsibility

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/03/healthcare-companies-links-tories-nhs-contracts ]bit more here[/url]

Are any of the other parties commiting to going back to the previous contracts?

No need to get involved for them as this is not a great scenario for the tories Public sympathy against them and the public doubt they love/respect the NHS. Best thing to do is let them slug it out and take all the hits.

As for the tiries being linked to private healthcare

Its not really surprising. Some of them [ and to be fair some of the labour MP's - would do anything for a little bit more money

Personally I want to and we deserve to have MPs who are free from the external influences of private companies with vested interest.

IMHO the only jobs they should be allowed to take are in the public sector /charity. Its not a badly paid job and if you are in it for the money then you are not fit to serve the public

Surely no one can argue that shelf stacking and being a dr are similar jobs in terms of emotional stress and responsibility

Indeed, same could be said of airline pilots who frequently pay the carrier for their initial first officer job! Seemingly some jobs are so good that people will do them without a large financial incentive.

THey are all keeping out the way as the Tories shoot themselves in the foot and show themselves to be the "nasty party" again.

That's 'none' then.

I explained what they are doing and why you can guess what this means, in relation to their view on the contract, if you like and assume it means they actually agree with the Tories.
Its seems unlikely this is true but hey its your choice 😕

It doesn't mean they agree. It certainly means the change isn't so disastrous that it must be reversed.

What has lead us to the point where people think working on a checkout is shameful?

Only you came up with that, suggesting only you think that.

Can somebody explain why the focus of the Junior Drs debate has become weekend working? Surely the important factor in all of this is that Drs shouldn't be forced into doing dangerous levels of overtime, regardless of the day?

Its not about weekends working per se its about the pay for weekend working

As for dangerous levels of overwork. you can only alter this by having more staff. no organisation can go from 5 day a week to 7 day a week *, with the same staff numbers, and not be making folk more overworked.

Junior Docs have expressed safety concerns over the lack of punishment for ignoring maximum week worked and a number of other safety concerns but it gets little coverage

* I know its 7 days lets just use his BS for this point.

Surely the important factor in all of this is that Drs shouldn't be forced into doing dangerous levels of overtime, regardless of the day?

Which is what they're arguing about but also that when they do work a Saturday Hunt has decided that's no longer unsociable, meaning they work longer and for less. The longer hours is the crux as tiredness can lead to mistakes which effects patients.

Ignore the 7 day bull that Hunt is on about he's no idea.

The Saturday on standard pay is the bit that would stick in my throat. The difference between 7&8 would bother me less.