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Told you ... the demand will increase.
Does that mean if NHS is poorly there will be less "health tourists"? 😮
We do already - what you mean is that the [i]sick[/i] will continue to pay for private healthcare [i]as the NHS won't pay for my lifelong medication despite having an exemption card[/i]
FTFY
I have paid out over £2K, plus train fares, for two visits to a private doctor in London.
Did someone just fart?
Somewhere in the world probably, why?
Now if the CH 4 fast facts is to be believed
Without being a fly on the wall in the negotiations, it’s hard to know what the real sticking points are. The BMA has made no secret today that it sees status of Saturdays as the main obstacle. At the same time, the doctors’ union is not conceding that all the other areas of disagreement in these complicated negotiations have now been completely settled. If it is the case – as the government claims – that earlier fears over unsafe working hours have now been allayed, this message has not trickled down to striking doctors on picket lines.They are still telling the public, perhaps wrongly, that this industrial action is still at least partly about unsafe hours.
Then the only winners hers are the communications/PR/spin doctors employed by the BMA, since this thread shows this is the narrative that we apparently have to accept.
You have to take you hat off to the BMA, they are a bloody good Union and of course they have plenty of history here even going back to the origins of what they now (apparently) hold most dear.
That's not "if CH4 is to be believed"- that's "if the government is to be believed"
Sorry must have misread it. Are CH4 as bad as Auntie then?
But broken record but......work in one of biggest teaching hospitals in Europe. We don't have enough junior docs to staff rota without locums IN OFFICE HOURS MONDAY TO FRIDAY. So mor docs at weekend means we need more locums.
You're going to need even more when 50% of trainees bail out on completion of the foundation programme or core training. Problem of course is that this doesn't just cause holes in the rota [b]now[/b] but also means in ten years or so there is going to be a consultant shortage.
Still, I seem Jeremy 'rhymes with' Hunt has set up a public enquiry into junior doctors' low morale, on the same day he has imposed the contract.
Are CH4 as bad as Auntie then?
Really don't know what you're getting at- the CH4 quote you gave makes no statements of fact, so it's not a question of believing them or not- they're reporting the government's claims but expressly state that they're not established facts.
I see. Must have misread it ^2?
Ch 4 really shouldn't put such stuff in a section called FactCheck and certainy not in "The verdict" section. Quite dishonest of them.
What do you think is dishonest about it?
d. If it is the case – as the government claims – that earlier fears over unsafe working hours have now been allayed,
I think that right there sites that the ch4 website is just filling pages with content it can't verify
Kind of amazed at some of the attitudes on here.
These guys n girls are Doctors FFS not Arthur Scargill.
If they say they are being pushed into an intolerable situation by a government who have never hidden the fact they are intent on de-constructing the NHS, why cant we just get behind them, with out obsessing out every tiny point.
Don't it always seem to go - That you don't know what you've got till its gone
The govt has shown the way for how easy it is to do this now- all you really need are a nicely compliant media, some 'all in it together' soundbites, and some petty jealousy among those who'd have us see the medics as having clay feet. Quite simple.
And then finally, when it wasn't quite going Hunt's way- he just pronounced that the negotiations were over. They can do that now, anywhere they like.
As doctors pretty much sat at the top of everything, they were the targets to knock out as a first pass, and that's been concluded- its really pretty much all over for any other public service now, as these tactics have been so effective.
I wonder who'll be next.
Teachers? Possibly. Though it might be that there's not a lot they can sell off and make money from in teaching.
.....Police?
I'm waiting to see the media campaign begin, and soon, to start gently chipping away at whoever is next in their sights.
It's done wonders for the morale of the nursing staff too. Those I inow are convinced they are next. Many, including my wife now looking to get out of primary care whilst the going is good. Two of her ENP colleagues quit this week, leaving another big hole in provision in the local ED/WIC. She's thinking hard about jumping ship too, especially as the local GP surgery are desperate for a practitioner.
I'm not too sure where this is going now.
Doc will be moving to Wales, Scotland and abroad, quality candidates won't be entering training, so your future doctor won't look after you as well, the number of specialty training posts has been reduced, there is not enough funding for the support diagnostic services for 7 day working, funding has been cut by 25% for social care services so people can't get out of hospital.
But to look at the positive, when it all goes tits up and they privatise it all at least Mrs FD will earn substantially more as a private hospital surgeon, and will only have to deal with nice middle class people, as more needy people in society won't be able to afford the private health costs 😀 🙁
The only reason he played along for such a duration is the power the docs wield. In my (AHP) department they just announce a consultaion period and then 3 months later they impose the change they want; the actual outcome of the "consultation" is immaterial.And then finally, when it wasn't quite going Hunt's way- he just pronounced that the negotiations were over. They can do that now, anywhere they like.
I really hope they stand firm against the govt (not just JH) on this - "everyone" else in the NHS supports them because the rest of us don't have a prayer
It's done wonders for the morale of the nursing staff too. Those I inow are convinced they are next. Many, including my wife now looking to get out of primary care
Yes have also heard the nurses fear they will be targeted yet and looking for ways out
Most other NHS workers have that same fear.
[quote=FunkyDunc spake unto the masses, saying]
But to look at the positive, when it all goes tits up and they privatise it all at least Mrs FD will earn substantially more as a private hospital surgeon, and will only have to deal with nice middle class people, as more needy people in society won't be able to afford the private health costs
Well, who gives sh1t about poor people? They are just lazy and have only themselves to blame.
(Am I getting the hang of this Tory thing yet?)
[quote=thisisnotaspoon ]bruneep - Member
Work days/ nights/ weekdays/weekends do difference in pay
Working 0300 on a Sunday morning same pay as working 1000 Monday
[b]Yes, but you're likely paid more for all your hours than someone doing the equivalent job mon-fri 9-5[/b].
People on a different set of T&C's to me in my job get a ~5% bonus in return for not being paid overtime (but still expected to work it). I 'missed out' on that offer, get paid overtime, but get less money in my normal paycheck.
If thats the case my pay is worse than I thought it was. So how does the person in dayshift dept get paid the same as me then?
They have already started on the nurses - bursaries going means less applicant's, whose going want take on uni debt to end with nurse salaries? Or the high number of mature students who could only make it because of the bursary?
Nurses, midwives, porters, consultants etc etc are all supportive of this action. They are all aware that they are in the firing line of Mr Hunt next.
Out of interest what is the definition of "unsocial hours" for NHS Nurses, midwives & porters? ie The times at which they get extra pay for being at work.
They have already started on the nurses - bursaries going means less applicant's, whose going want take on uni debt to end with nurse salaries?
Nurses already earn more than the median average wage - which of course covers many other graduates working in other professions, so simply puts them on a par with everyone else when it comes to how the training is paid for.
The Royal College of Nurses made a sustained push for nursing to become a degree level qualification. Arguably this at the root cause of so many people dropping out of nursing training (because it's now very removed from patients for the early years) and the experience/ complaints from patients which is many newly qualified "degree level" Nurses are much less inclined to do hands on care than their non-degree qualified peers of 20 or 30 years ago.
Nurses already earn more than the median average wage
Average Nrurses wage is around £23k for 3 years of study.
And of course it switching degree level wasn't the cause of so many dropping out. Utter rubbish.
Out of interest what is the definition of "unsocial hours" for NHS Nurses, midwives & porters? ie The times at which they get extra pay for being at work.
The national agreement on unsocial hours payments is set out in Section 2(a) (England) in the NHS Terms and Conditions of Service Handbook. To help employers deal with any questions from staff we have prepared the FAQs below.Under this system, shifts starting on week days will be paid at the rate which applies to the majority of the hours worked as part of the shift, while Sunday enhancements will apply to the 24 hours from midnight to midnight. The effect of this for shifts starting at 7.00 pm and ending at 6.00 am, for example, will be:
shifts starting on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday: all of the shift would be paid at the enhanced rate;
shifts starting on Friday and ending on Saturday morning: all of the shift would be at the enhanced rate;
shifts starting on Saturday and ending on Sunday morning: the Monday to Saturday rate of enhancement for the hours 7.00 pm to 12.00 midnight and the Sunday rate of enhancement for the rest of the shift; and
shifts starting on Sunday and ending on Monday morning: Sunday rate of enhancement for the hours 7.00 pm to 12.00 midnight and Monday to Saturday rate of enhancement for the rest of the shift.
"Normal" hours for those on the Agenda for Change contract (which I believe includes nurses and other allied health professionals) are 6am-8pm on weekdays. Saturdays and evenings/nights attract a 30-50% premium. Sundays and bank holidays attract a 60-100% premium.
[url= http://www.nhsemployers.org/your-workforce/pay-and-reward/nhs-terms-and-conditions/nhs-terms-and-conditions-of-service-handbook/unsocial-hours-payments ]Link[/url]
Edited for rogue apostrophe
Just5mins, are you sure your not a Tory spin doctor ?
Nurses are much less inclined to do hands on care than their non-degree qualified peers of 20 or 30 years ago.
Utter rubbish. They're far more qualified in many ways than a degree meaning they do far more hands on. They can prescribe, book and read X-rays, treat and discharge, suture as well as perform small procedures.
only themselves to blame.
Problem is there is some truth in this, due to poor lifestyle choices in fags, alcohol and food.
The joke that did the rounds in the NHS section where I worked was that the only reason the 'poor' didn't get scurvy was due to a diet heavy in chips.
[quote=Drac ]Nurses are much less inclined to do hands on care than their non-degree qualified peers of 20 or 30 years ago.
Utter rubbish. They're far more qualified in many ways than a degree meaning they do far more hands on. They can prescribe, book and read X-rays, treat and discharge, suture as well as perform small procedures.
This^
My wife is a "dinosaur" midwife with no degree but she has 20+ years experience. She has been told she will not get any career progression as she has no degree. (good staff motivation)
Yet the young un's coming through have the bit of papper saying they are "better" than my wife. Some of them are getting promoted with their head full of nonsense out of books and lectures with no practical sense of how to actually do things on the ward when it comes to the crunch.
My wife is a "dinosaur" midwife with no degree but she has 20+ years experience. She has been told she will not get any career progression as she has no degree. (good staff motivation)Yet the young un's coming through have the bit of papper saying they are "better" than my wife. Some of them are getting promoted with their head full of nonsense out of books and lectures with no practical sense of how to actually do things on the ward when it comes to the crunch.
bruneep - a very good friend of mine was a nurse for 30 years and learnt very much 'hands on'. She is critical of needing a degree for nursing and would agree with your thoughts.
My biggest gripe about both nurses and doctors is the lack of observational skills - tear your head away from the screen and watch the patient walk through your door, also look at them when they're talking with you.
Seriously? Coming back to this thread is like picking a scab. I know I shouldn't but I do. It just makes me angry.
My wife is an emergency nurse practitioner. She's also dual adult/paediatric qualified. That's extra nice as she now has to pay two sets of registration fees every year just to work. She has spent a lot of her life studying to be as qualified as she is. She has also spent 12 years working her arse off in emergency departments, walk in centres, gp surgeries etc. She is a band 7 at the moment, and earns a respectable amount of money. She bloody well earns it though. She does indeed sit on her arse doing paperwork. At home. After a 12 hour shift often spent doing things other than her actual job because the dept is so short staffed. Comes home exhausted day after day.
I'm a trained nurse and I got out of it a long time ago, there's no way I could put up with what she does.
Maybe that's the problem, I actually know what happens rather than basing my opinion on what the media tells me or what I think I know.
"Normal" hours for those on the Agenda for Change contract (which I believe includes nurses and other allied health professionals) are 6am-8pm on weekdays. Saturdays and evenings/nights attract a 30-50% premium. Sundays and bank holidays attract a 60-100% premium.
Many thanks.
So the 'evening' definition for the Doctors will be the same as Nurses etc, but Doctors wont get extra for Saturdays? (Although I'm sure I heard there was an offer of some kind of premium for Saturdays?)
the dr wanted that premium [ in return for a lower salary so it was cost neutral] but the Govt refused
Yup there was no offer that was part of what the BMA wanted to negotiate, Hunt refused then lied saying 20 Chief Execs agreed he should implement his initial proposal.
My biggest gripe about both nurses and doctors is the lack of observational skills - tear your head away from the screen and watch the patient walk through your door, also look at them when they're talking with you.
Do a volunteer shift in A&E and you'll see how nonsensical that comment is.
The new offer, which Sir David’s letter said would see the majority of junior doctors who work Saturdays getting a premium rate, was sent late on Tuesday.However, the BMA, which was given until 3pm to reply, appeared to reject the deal
Seems to be two different versions.
Ah my mistake. Hmmm! Set a short deadline that old trick.
The lies about the chief executives' supposed support for imposition are just such a perfect symptom... A transparent lie that started to be refuted literally within hours and which he knew would never hold water but he just crashes on anyway.
But you can also see the wider problem here too- the inevitable response is being reported most places as "chiefs withdraw support" rather than "chiefs never supported this in the first place"
[quote=Northwind spake unto the masses, saying]The lies about the supposed support for imposition are just such a perfect symptom... A transparent lie that started to be refuted literally within hours and which he knew would never hold water but he just crashes on anyway.
It only had to last until his Commons announcement, which it did. Liar.
Nurses are much less inclined to do hands on care than their non-degree qualified peers of 20 or 30 years ago.
Utter, utter tosh.
I've just received the letter setting out the terms of the contract and have been doing some number crunching based on my best guess on how the new contract works (it's a lot more complex than my current one!).
I believe that I will personally be losing £1500 PA in the first year after imposition, and losing £4000 PA in the second (after which I hope I will be able to escape!). Interestingly, the old offer made in November was actually better financially for me - I would have lost £1200 in the first year but gained £4000 in the second.
It would seem that those in less than full time jobs (mainly women) will stand to lose a significant amount as they won't go up the pay scales as quickly as before.
Doctors taking time out to do academic degrees will also lose, as they will not go up any pay scales whilst doing research (even though most still work in clinical medicine during their research) and will only gain the bonus for academics once they have actually submitted and passed their degree, rather than when they return to work.
£4k!
Shame on Hunt, how can he keep his job after so many lies?
Shame on Hunt, how can he keep his job after so many lies?
More than likely get promoted; or put more time into his directorship interests as a lot of healthcare companies are going to have a business boom.
Shame on Hunt, how can he keep his job after so many lies?
You think he's employed to tell the truth?
Probably already covered, but I saw something in the press somewhere about Hunt's mother and aunt being board members of a big private healthcare company. I assumed they were getting muddled up with Teresa May and G4S, but it makes you wonder...
He wouldn't be the first politician to make the most of contacts made during his time as health secretary...
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