Nice smear campaign by The Sun:
[url= http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/6850988/Luxury-lifestyles-of-junior-doctor-strike-leaders.html ]Moet medics: High life of docs leaders who are heading up NHS strike
EXCLUSIVE: Pics show champagne-swilling lavish lifestyles enjoyed by striking 'Moet medics'[/url]
[i]"Look we trawled through their facebook photos and found that some of these doctors can afford to go on skiing holidays, meet elephants or even drink fizzy wine."[/i]
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story eh?
http://www.buzzfeed.com/laurasilver/this-moet-medic-smeared-by-the-sun-was-actually-volunteering
http://www.buzzfeed.com/laurasilver/buying-waitrose-toilet-paper-because-yolo
The NHS isn't 24 hours ? Cool I will tell MrsFla she doesn't have to work this weekend (2 x 12 hr shifts on tops of a normal week - yay !
We should have a 7 day parliament to get stuff done gooder
I went to my local hospital for a scan in Saturday. Quite surprised and a very pleasant experience it was too. The delightful radiographer was not so happy though (unsurprisingly) as she had a full day of appointments.
Seen early, very efficient, pleasant experience given the intimate nature of the sessions 😉 I had gone in with a book fully prepared for a nightmare wait. But was quite the opposite.
Well isn't that just grand.
Our esteemed Secretary of State for Health creates a confrontation leading to the first doctor's strike in 40 years with 98% support from the union members.
And then the government just try to ignore it and hope it all goes away.
Yay democracy. 🙁
Is this the Hunt you are talking about ... ?
I'll always support doctors and the NHS. We're very lucky to have them/it.
Any politician trying to screw either over won't have my vote next year.
or Chunt is lying
The test for this is, did his lips move? Yes? He's lying!
In fairness, that's a typical press misrepresentation of a very good idea (that [i]certainly[/i] wasn't Jeremy *unts) but unfortunately LAS are very, very broken. It's working well in my Trust and evidence is pointing to it having a noticeable improvement on outcomes. The crux of the idea is that in cases where the patient is conscious (very first question) it's probably worth finding out what's actually wrong with them before we send a car and a truck careering across a city to a stubbed toe...
Is this the Hunt you are talking about ... ?
Doesn't mean Hunt is not a complete **** though.
My junior doc colleagues 2 out of 5 joined the picket for at least part +)1 ended up going back in for the afternoon to help out anyway) of the day, 1 went into work as normal, 2 were at work in the uni so not in hospital
For the sake of anyone joining us from [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/so-is-it-about-patient-safety-or-is-it-just-about-the-money ]bluehelmet's closed thread[/url] with an acute case of TL;DR
they want more monnneeeyyyy! Less work more pay please
Anyone who believes this hasn't being paying attention to what the dispute is about at all.
[b]They DON'T want more money or less hours. [/b]
The dispute is about the proposed changes to their contracts which would see them (or doctors after them) get significantly LESS money for the same work they do now and would also effectively remove the safeguards that prevent trusts from making them work dangerously long hours.
Is this the Hunt you are talking about ... ?
Suspected cardiac cases are still dispatched the same there's only change for suspected none life threatening.
GrahamS - Member
The dispute is about the proposed changes to their contracts which would see them (or doctors after them) get significantly LESS money for the same work they do now and would also effectively remove the safeguards that prevent trusts from making them work dangerously long hours.
GrahamS,
I think the Junior/doctors have actually targeted the wrong people i.e. they have targeted the govt when they should be targeting the management. They are Not the same people IMO.
If fact what they actually have is incompetent management ZM bureaucrats. You do know managers/management are recruited based on their paper qualification rather than their true ability to manage don't you? You simply cannot blame the govt for the poor hospital management as if the Ministers are all working in the hospital everyday like the managers or the one that recruited them.
All govt personnel, regardless of Ministers, still need to get information from the management so the question is who feed the govt those information? Management of course ... what do you think? Sacrifices their own job/salary/pay to feed the govt the true information or blame others?
As for the Union they are just the opposite of the management with the same intention of staying in power by stirring up others for their own agenda.
You lot are screwed!
We are all Screwed!
Welcome to the drone world of ZM bureaucracy!
🙄
edit: You cannot even manage NHS yet people are calling to join up to be full member of EU which is an even larger "organisation"! The problem will be multiply by millions ... 😯
Are these people experts (those calling for full EU membership) in bureaucracy and the evolution of management in organisation? They really don't know where they are heading do they?
why should any of my friends or immediate family be put at risk by strike? It's a bit different from a bus driver going on strike, this could actually cost lives, shame on them ...really shame on the effing lot of em.
Lets rewrite the hipocratic oath to **** you our contract is now more important.
Ps edit, I know doctors aren't bound by this.
Data suggests strikes improve outcomes as more care delivered by seniors....
why should any of my friends or immediate family be put at risk by strike? It's a bit different from a bus driver going on strike, this could actually cost lives, shame on them ...really shame on the effing lot of em.Lets rewrite the hipocratic oath to **** you our contract is now more important.
Ps edit, I know doctors aren't bound by this.
Indeed, why even pay the selfish bastards? They should work for free because if they don't it could cost lives! 😯
philxx1975 - Member
why should any of my friends or immediate family be put at risk by strike? It's a bit different from a bus driver going on strike, this could actually cost lives, shame on them ...really shame on the effing lot of em.Lets rewrite the hipocratic oath to **** you our contract is now more important.
you do know they are only striking from non-essential duties?
heres a post a friend put on FB
BBC News.... "Mr Hunt said the number that had gone into work showed "the values of the vast majority of junior doctors". Of 26,000, 11,000 showed up to work.
Just to clarify, Jeremy Hunt. I was in work today not because I disagreed with the strike or because I had higher values than my colleagues but because some of us had to to ensure people were safe. I don't agree with you. I support my colleagues. You're an idiot and once again you've demonstrated that.
why should any of my friends or immediate family be put at risk by strike? It's a bit different from a bus driver going on strike, this could actually cost lives, shame on them ...really shame on the effing lot of em.
The consultants and other colleagues are (willingly) covering the strikes.
The doctors don't strike lightly - that's why this is the first one in forty odd years - but worries about patient safety is one of the biggest reasons they are striking.
Where would they be on the Hippocratic Oath if they stood by and allowed changes to be introduced which they believe compromise patient safety?
No idea why should they?why should any of my friends or immediate family be put at risk by strike?
you nailed their central concern. Well done, you have a fine grasp of this issue.Lets rewrite the hipocratic oath to **** you our contract is now more important.
Why should any of my families or friends health be put at risk by a health secretary changing working conditions in the NHS to the detriment of patient safety . Thank Christ the Junior Drs have the courage to stand up and fight for what they know is right.
Hunt should take the Hippocratic Oath patients come before political ideology . If he wants a " 7 day a week service " that is different to the current 7 day a week service then he needs to increase staff by about 20 % not demotivate and alienate the current staff.
I've been staying out of this for the sake of my blood pressure but enough is enough.
Short term strikes reduce in-hospital mortality rates because:
A. Patients avoid coming to hospital so those that die do so either die somewhere else or die in hospital [i]after[/i] the strike.
B. Routine operations are cancelled. You can't get a fatal complication from an operation you didn't have
Moron.
They are fighting for their working conditions to remain the same as far as I can tell, the same as the majority of working people would do, it being work and not free time you know.
[url= http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18849101 ]Soc Sci Med. 2008 Dec;67(11):1784-8. doi: 10.1016/j.socscimed.2008.09.044. Epub 2008 Oct 10.
[b]Doctors' strikes and mortality: a review.[/b]
Cunningham SA1, Mitchell K, Narayan KM, Yusuf S.[/url]
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-raj-persaud/when-doctors-go-on-strike_b_1513689.html
GrahamS - MemberWhere would they be on the Hippocratic Oath if they stood by and allowed changes to be introduced which they believe compromise patient safety?
That my duck riding friend is total and utter bollox.
Anyway it sounds like it's academic according to the news tonight, the government can force the contracts through and so they should. Lazy useless bastards that they are these days.
I happen to agree
They all want to get to consultant level status and wages but don't want to do the work. If you aren't prepared to do the work don't become a doctor simple, expect consultant status handed to you on a plate, then piss off to private sector to milk the NHS a bit more .
Thanks Graham S.
Surgical death rates are far higher from emergency surgery than elective. And emergency surgery carries on.
It's been said before and I'll say it again - all juniors who are full time work 48 hours a week. The only way to have more staff on sat/sun is to reduce numbers Monday to Friday. And we already rely on locums as not enough staff.
Lazy useless bastards that they are these days.
They all want to get to consultant level but don't want to do the work.
Its easy to forget that some people have absolutely no idea what junior doctors actually do, then you get posts like these 🙄
Ah yes, you were the guy [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/snowboarding-problems-feet ]trollingly suggesting some insane snowboard stance[/url]. I remember.
Well if you think you can troll me again...
Lazy useless bastards that they are these days.
...then you'd be right.
Further up the thread you'd see me commenting on my junior doctor wife doing a 56 hour week (including three 13 hour shifts), plus a full day at a training course, plus evening work on presentations and eportfolio - and that's a PART TIME post.
If you really think that's "lazy" then I'd like to hear about your week and how many people you kept alive.
They all want to get to consultant level but don't want to do the work.
Mrs qualified as a doctor in 2000. She has been working towards being a consultant since then.
You have [i]no idea[/i] how much work she has put in: running clinics, learning procedures, audits, research, writing papers, conferences - as well as the actual looking after patients bits.
Even filling in her consultant application form took her a week - I've never seen anything like it!
In just one section of it they wanted a list of every hospital she'd worked at, all 17 of them, each one with 500 words describing her duties and experiences, plus her salary at the time and the names, emails, adresses and phone numbers of the people she had worked with. And that's before we got to the 2000 word essays for the other sections. And that's just to get her shortlisted for an interview!
Why should any of my families or friends health be put at risk by a health secretary changing working conditions in the NHS to the detriment of patient safety
@crankboy total opposite is true, the new contract is about making sure there is proper cover at weekends (plus other stuff)
Becoming a doctor remains massively oversubscribed with far more supremely well qualified candidates chasing places. Thats a signal it must be a pretty good career overall despite what we all accept is a tough introduction.
One additional issue is we only have one health service provider, the NHS. If we had a variety of providers a strike by one set of doctors wouldn't jepordise fhe whole country and doctors could choose which provider they worked for.
Becoming a Dr is massively oversubscribed but staying one in the UK isn't. Why do you think there are so many vacancies? If you are keen on options to the NHS then have a look at proportion of GDP spent on health.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS
Jamba the Hunt said:
If we had a variety of providers a strike by one set of doctors wouldn't jepordise fhe whole country and doctors could choose which provider they worked for.
Spoken like a true Tory jamba:
Break up the NHS and privatise it to different providers so the unions have less power and patients get to choose who they pay for treatment.
If that's the ultimate goal (and I agree it is) then they should have the balls to make that a manifesto promise and see what the people think.
Its easy to forget that some people have absolutely no idea [s]what junior doctors actually do[/s], then you get posts like these
FTFY
Mr Hunt is an idiot. When the last strike was supposed to happen, Mr Hunt had all the previous day to day he would go to ACAS, yet he left it until 5pm to make that decision, which was too late for any lists to be reinstated etc, so although there was no strike, he basically caused the same amount of disruption.
They all want to get to consultant level status and wages but don't want to do the work. If you aren't prepared to do the work don't become a doctor simple, expect consultant status handed to you on a plate, then piss off to private sector to milk the NHS a bit more .
You really have absolutely no idea on so many levels. If you want me to begin explaining I will, but I think it would be lost on you.
GrahamS - I look forward to the day when MrsFD is filling out Consultant applications, at least then I might actually get to see her at home, rather than her constantly being st the Golf Course as she is now 🙂
Why are stupid people allowed on the Internet?
I am saddened by the complete failure of some to grasp the actual nub of the argument and to simply spout the line that cHunt has been feeding the media. Yes, there are two sides to every story but his is a manipulative, devious, bare faced lie of a story when it comes to trying to make the other side, the medical profession, look bad.
Those of you who think the strike is about money, that doctors have it lucky and are being unreasonable, maybe do a little research into their training requirements, the financial and time commitment. Their working conditions once qualified, the progression rates and requirements to higher level posts. How about considering the simple fact that these are the people we trust to look after us and our relatives & friends when they are ill, injured, dying. Do you want to risk them being pushed so hard that they make a mistake? They don't, that's one of the reasons they are striking.
In absolute terms doctors do,indeed earn good money but by Christ they earn it. Do they really deserve to be given an effective pay cut?
The whole '7 day NHS' thing really angers me too. Who can refute the fact that there is always 7 day essential care cover available? Who has ever tried to go to the ED on a Sunday and found it closed? I agree that we ought to be able to provide non acute services over the whole week and that would ease waiting times and improve care provision, but trying to force the existing workforce to work longer hours won't fill the space.
Please, do,a bit of reading beyond the red tops, or the BBC news channel. Actually consider what is happening. If you can't do that, step away from the keyboard and keep your ill informed, moronic comments to,yourself.
Mattbe - to some extent I actually disagree with you. In any job sector any where in the world, if you pay 20% less than you can get working for other companies, then you will only attract poor candidates and therefore your business will suffer, I would hope even the people who disagree with the docs here would agree with this!
So if Mr Hunt does get away with reducing doctors pay, then expect the future quality of doctors to be lower, does anyone really want that ??
FD, I'm confused as to what you mean there, you say you disagree but your following statement doesn't appear to relate to what I said, in fact you appear to be in agreement?
Infographic for the hard-of-reading:
[img] 
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[img] 
?format=750w[/img]
([url= http://www.patientsource.co.uk/news/2015-11-29/why-patientsource-is-supporting-the-junior-doctors ]Much bigger originals available here[/url])
With the massive commodities drop I'm not sure doctors will be so required in the Middle East, Canada or Australia for a while.
Weird that people so wedded to the idea of the NHS are happy to leg it to the Middle East or the USA.
mattbee - Member
How about considering the simple fact that these are the people we trust to look after us and our relatives & friends when they are ill, injured, dying. Do you want to risk them being pushed so hard that they make a mistake? They don't, that's one of the reasons they are striking.
In absolute terms doctors do,indeed earn good money but by Christ they earn it. Do they really deserve to be given an effective pay cut?
Trust? Yes, to certain extend but what choice do you have if you are poor or financially not viable?
Ok this is in the far east and Not in the UK ...
Two weeks ago my uncle in the far east was told he has stage 4 liver cancer ...
I mean he went for medical check up 2 years ago (over there) but was not told the result until the recent check up again when he felt slightly uncomfortable. The result given to him by the doctor was stage 4 liver cancer (might be similar to Bowie) ... WTF! Whaatttt? Now my uncle is waiting to die coz it might be too late to deal with the cancer.
Well, we feel angry and a sad because my uncle will die unless something is done but since it will cost a lot for medication in the far east my uncle has decided that if it's time to go ... he will go. In the meantime we shall have to revert to traditional herbal medication to see if we can prolong his life a little bit longer.
In the far east there are so many junior doctors my father was told there were several junior doctors competing for patients according to the slightly senior doctor. Then the senior doctor told my father that they (senior doctors) were going elsewhere for greener pasture ... my bet is that they will come here.
If junior doctors here want to work abroad then go ahead coz there will be competition. There seem to be over supplied of under qualified/experienced doctors in the far east but then on paper they are as good as the junior doctors here ...
Its easy to forget that some people have absolutely no idea what junior doctors actually do, then you get posts like these
Given that none of the traditional media outlets seem to want to put the doctors' concerns across - I guess because it's hard to express in 140 characters - I don't find it surprising that people are so astonishingly ignorant about what doctors are actually arguing for. The BBC's output has been particularly galling.
in fact you appear to be in agreement?
Sorry was trying to do 20 things at once this morning and misread the context of your post!
...both our posts are still very valid.
As an aside
I do feel the leaders of the BMA are doing shockingly badly at countering Hunt. Mr Hunt was brought in to the Government as a spin doctor, and I have to say it is the one thing that he is very good at.
BMA really do need to up their game.
