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(what's the worst that can happen?)
Diminishing Oil revenues resulting in increased taxes to fund public services
Economic isolation, £ or Euro or neither?
Loss of major industry including finance sector.
No lender of last resort if there is a finance crisis.
Alex Salmonds smug 'glorious leader' face everywhere.
More Nicola Sturgeon.
Missing out on allowing Devo Max by the back door, a great opportunity for best of both worlds.
A huge drop in living standards.
Worse than the continuing and worsening austerity promised by all Westminster parties?
I do think it is foolish to base an economic/political decision on what is essentially xenophobia.
If this is how the independence campaign is being portrayed south of the border then I find it sad.
Its about a country deciding how it wants to be governed
Yes
English living in Holland
No vote
Yes because of the current democratic deficit in England/Wales with Scottish votes being counted on matters which are none of their business. Also 300 years Scotland acting like a fairground owner in Scooby Doo - "It'd have been all OK if it wasn't for them pesky English" - is enough. It is time for Scotland to stand or fall on its own.
If this is how the independence campaign is being portrayed south of the border then I find it sad.
I think comment was made with reference to this :
I'm sure every part of the map of Empire that used to be coloured red went its own way with the admonition and scorn of Her Majesty's Government and its lackeys and lickspittles ringing in their ears. A few years later, how many of these disloyal subjects have crawled back for another lick at the colonial jackboot because Her Majesty's Government was right about them being too small/poor/remote/wayward/stupid to govern themselves? How many have been reduced to a system of barter in lieu of a currency? Which of them are pariah states that have not been admitted to the EU, the UN or NATO? How many of them have enjoyed the advantages of natural resources, wealth, education, location, etc etc that Scotland does?Britishness is a false construct, a shorthand for Englishness, which is many decades past its sell-by date.
Which I'm sure you'll agree is quite an impressive xenophobic rant, there's even mention of the "colonial jackboot".
What tyres will I need in an independent Scotland?
That fictional austerity you mean? The one where you hold budgets and increase tax take, it's hardly austerity. If you want to see real austerity visit Greece or Ireland.
An iScotland will have to live within it's means, and its costs in many areas will rise, due to higher borrowing costs, no option of QE and loss of buying power. So who you going to tax to take up the slack? The oil and finance industries would be obvious starters but both are highly mobile, and could walk away if things get too much. So the other option is tighten budgets across the board and suddenly Westminster 'austerity' looks like the cuddly option.
What tyres will I need in an independent Scotland?
Slicks, as you'll need good grip to stick to a country that will be paved with gold.
Voting NO!
Scottish living in Scotland.
Yes I have a vote.
There was more to the Empire than boots on the ground in India. It is myopic to suggest Scotland was not heavily involved. The whole thing would probably not have been possible without the development of the steam engine by James Watt. Powered industry and helped UK textile sector clothe vast regions of the World.
It's use for locomotive power allowed convenient travel for millions around the globe and also allowed faster response by troops to quell these mutinies.
Scottish built ships transporting tea, wool, spices and other goods around the globe to make large sums of money, often for Scottish based merchants prior to the era of fair trade.
How many Clyde built ships were used in the slave trade? I am also sure there were no Scottish slave traders and plantation owners in the Americas either.
You could say that at that time the real power was not wielded out of London, but cities in the north, Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow and Edinburgh.
You could say that at that time the real power was not wielded out of London, but cities in the north, Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow and Edinburgh.
I completely agree - Scotland used to proudly describe itself as "North Britain". We were the workshop of the world.
That was killed off by successive governments, with Thatcher dealing the final blows, in favour of a London-centric economy based on financial speculation.
Alex Salmond is going to reestablish the Empire ?
That'll give Scottish shipbuilding a much needed boost.
Alex Salmond is going to reestablish the Empire ?
Yeah, because a Scottish empire worked so well last time 😉
A rebalancing away from the City would benefit not just Scotland, but Wales, the North of England, and a bunch of other places. The difference is that Scotland has a chance to do something about it.
The whole thing would probably not have been possible without the development of the steam engine by James Watt.
That is rubbish. It is a bit like saying the internet would not exist if Tim Berners-Lee had not invented it. Of course it would exist, someone else would have invented it a very short time later. Same for the steam engine and most other inventions.
No it won't. An independent Scotland will be in direct competition with Wales and England. There will be no winners only losers, and Scotland will probably lose most.
An independent Scotland will be in direct competition with Wales and England.
We already are. Funding, projects and investment are already a matter of competition between the countries and regions of the UK - the difference is that at the moment it's a rigged competition.
Vote for independence then.
The oil and finance industries would be obvious starters but both are highly mobile, and could walk away if things get too much.
Large chunks of finance industry have already indicated they will move away if there is no currency union. But we don't need to worry about minor detail like that, after all, Dear Leader Alex has said it will all be okay and he therefore doesn't really need a plan b.
Large chunks of finance industry have already indicated they will move away if there is no currency union. But we don't need to worry about minor detail like that, after all
Have they? All I've seen is some statements saying they might have to move and they're drawing contingency plans. Not the same thing at all.
Dear Leader Alex has said it will all be okay and he therefore doesn't really need a plan b.
It's silly comments like this that try and paint As as a dictator that devalue the debate and your opinion.
Scots were heavily involved in sugar tabs and tea trade,in fact the merchant city in Glasgow was funded from the profits of this. All done in the early 1800's when the first two were grown on plantations. In fact Rabbie Burns was already contracted to go and work as a overseer on a plantation in Jamaica whern his book of poems took off. However it was the Barsteward English made them do it!
It's silly comments like this that try and paint As as a dictator that devalue the debate and your opinion.
point taken about the silly dictator quote but I stand by my view that it is arrogant to not present an alternative to currency union and just work on the assumption that it will all be fine,
point taken about the silly dictator quote but I stand by my view that it is arrogant to not present an alternative to currency union and just work on the assumption that it will all be fine,
I assume that announcing a plan B would significantly effect the SNP's bargaining position. They'll have a plan B and C but obviously feel it's better in the short term stick with what they have.
The oil and finance industries would be obvious starters but both are highly mobile, and could walk away if things get too much.
How is the oil industry going to move away? Scotland is where the oil is.
Finance - several companies have said they're making contingency plans, but really they'd be negligent if they didn't. I used to work for IBM, looking after General Accident's mainframes, and they were stored at a tank-proof facility. The chances of a tank attacking an industrial estate in Perth were pretty slim, but they did it anyway to cover themselves.
A conservative MP earlier:
it would be "an empty step for the rest of the UK to decide that Scotland should not be allowed to use the pound because an independent Scotland, should one exist, would be the second largest market for rUK exports"
I think he underestimates his own party's ability to cut off its own nose to spite its face.
I completely agree - Scotland used to proudly describe itself as "North Britain". We were the workshop of the world.That was killed off by successive governments, with Thatcher dealing the final blows, in favour of a London-centric economy based on financial speculation.
as this thread is turning in to a duplicate of the other one, it seems only appropriate that someone says it's all thatcher's fault, and it was hardly just scotland that suffered - the big cities of north england, wales, the midlands, decimated industrial wastelands.
i rather fail to see how this country as a whole would have competed in heavy industry, coal mining, etc. etc. when china was just getting up and running, or about what you would have expected anyone to do about it. do we want our ( your, i don't have any ) kids going underground, or smacking red hot rivets in to sheets of metal, in some kind of an uncompetitive industrial theme park?
the changes this country went through in the 70s and 80s were desperate for a lot of people, but it was going to happen one way or another, and the scots were not the only ones to suffer.
can't help but think that the real reason the snp is so successful is that the disaffection that we all feel with the mainstream parties in the UK is being expressed differently, just because there's an alternative way to vote. shame it's resulting in such a waste of energy and resource that could actually be being put to improve people's lives.
vote no.
british.
no vote.
we're stronger together.
We already are. Funding, projects and investment are already a matter of competition between the countries and regions of the UK - the difference is that at the moment it's a rigged competition.
Indeed - it's massively rigged towards London and Edinburgh.
whatnobeer - MemberAll I've seen is some statements saying they might have to move and they're drawing contingency plans.
bencooper - MemberFinance - several companies have said they're making contingency plans, but really they'd be negligent if they didn't.
😕 Surely they should be making "contingency plans" to move to Scotland, not move away.
Haven't they heard the good news ?
live in england - half scottish/half english (lots of family still in scotland)
nope - don't think it is necessary for an independent scotland, but they have every right to choose
imo - we are better off together on this small island, i don't see the point of multiple parliaments, it will not benefit the population of this island
the only winners will the the scottish political class with a new tier of civil servants
the working class scots won't be better off but just the same, but at least they can't whinge at westminster any more, too many scots never leave home (including my family - we go up north, they never travel down south - they are not poor) and don't quite understand that a large proportion of people in Wales. NI and England feel the same way about london calling the shots
it sickens me that the true intentions/plans are not being correctly and rightly discussed up front with the scottish population first (defence/education/health/currency/the EU etc.) and it appears to be a case of vote first, and we'll work out the fine details later - never trust a politician
hey - at least if it goes ahead the LABOUR PARTY are screwed in Westminster!
orange - Member
...i don't see the point of multiple parliaments, it will not benefit the population of this islandthe only winners will the the scottish political class with a new tier of civil servants
...it sickens me that the true intentions/plans are not being correctly and rightly discussed up front with the scottish population first (defence/education/health/currency/the EU etc.) and it appears to be a case of vote first, and we'll work out the fine details later - never trust a politician
hey - at least if it goes ahead the LABOUR PARTY are screwed in Westminster!
But don't you see, we're getting rid of 2 surplus parliaments, the Commons and the Lords, so that leaves us with just the one. 🙂
There's only so much that can be preplanned. There will be an election shortly after independence, and there will be policies and decisions to vote for.
Aye, the Labour party may well be screwed in Westminster unless they suddenly rediscover their roots and ditch all their pink Tories. If the independence movement succeeds it will be largely due to the vote of disaffected Scottish Labour voters (that bit is purely my opinion).
don't think it is necessary for an independent scotland
You don't think independence is necessary for an independent scotland?
too many scots never leave home (including my family - we go up north, they never travel down south - they are not poor) and don't quite understand that a large proportion of people in Wales. NI and England feel the same way about london calling the shots
this is an absolute peach 🙂
2001 Census found 38.9 thousand moved from
Scotland to England, and 43.7 thousand from
England to Scotland
Census data shows that the figures moving between north and south are almost equal. So 10 times as many Scots, proportionally, experience life in the England compared to the other way round.
More Scotland to England migrants tend to be young adults and England to Scotland migrants are more heavily weighted in the elderly category.
Oh well, maybe the colonial jackboot was a metaphor too far for some sensitive souls. I'd say that there is a whiff of colonialism about parts of Britain's historical relationship with Scotland - from the Clearances to Churchill's tanks in George Square. Of course Scotland isn't India - and yes, some Scots were enthusiastic empire-builders, and Glasgow in particular grew rich from exploiting the colonies.
The point I was trying to make is, there are many political entities whose relationship with Great Britain ran its course, one way or another, which have gone on to prosper as independent nations. I'm sure each of those in turn was threatened with an indypocalypse such as is now being predicted for Scotland. How many of them regret the decision?
The sky didn't fall down, the world didn't stop turning on its axis, when Australia, India, Ireland, Cyprus, wherever, ceded from the larger political entity to which they once belonged. Nor will it for Scotland, if that is the route it chooses to go down. Similarly dire warnings were bandied about by the No campaign in advance of the Devolution Referendum. How many Scots now would choose to vote their Parliament out of existence and return control of its remit to Westminster?
If the debaters would like to **** off to one of the other Independence threads, it would be much appreciated. This one was actually interesting for a while 🙄
If the debaters would like to **** off to one of the other Independence threads, it would be much appreciated. This one was actually interesting for a while
Was always going to happen. As soon as people start justifying a vote one way or another then they'll get questioned on it.
I've lost count of current tally, still looks pretty even between those can actually vote.
Hold on...this isn't an independence thread???
Sorry 😳
More Scotland to England migrants tend to be young adults and England to Scotland migrants are more heavily weighted in the elderly category.
Ooh you cheeky sod
Can vote:
??Yes 16 (50%) ??No 16 (50%)
Can't vote:
?Yes 8 (38%)??No 13 (62%)
Truly independent. Yes but I doubt that's what they want.
After that would mean that every penny that was ever input by the UK would have to be retrieved. They don't own the North sea gas, the UK does. Moral Scotland would have to start again with only what was owned by private Scottish individuals and companies. You can't say I am leaving the club and taking the club resources' with you.
They don't own the North sea gas, the UK does.
International law would disagree with you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_economic_zone
Truly independent. Yes but I doubt that's what they want.
After that would mean that every penny that was ever input by the UK would have to be retrieved. They don't own the North sea gas, the UK does. Moral Scotland would have to start again with only what was owned by private Scottish individuals and companies.
What? If by "truly independent" you mean cut off from all other organisations and other countries, then no, we don't want that But then no one does. I really don't see what's so hard to understand about what we want when we say we want to be independent.
You can't say I am leaving the club and taking the club resources' with you.
Yes you can. It's more like a divorce, you can come to an agreement with the partner that wants to leave or you can let the courts decide the settlement.
How is the oil industry going to move away? Scotland is where the oil is
But you can easily service it from elsewhere, kit already goes out from Norway and England, as well as Scotland. As for other service we've done work for all around the world, and no O&G company builds much in the UK anymore, and if they did it would probably be in Newcastle anyway.
Add in that the North Sea is very mature with poor returns on many fields, which are often owned by Asian or Middle Eastern government controlled companies, and you have to say the future of North Sea oil isn't a particularly stable one.
It concerns me that people base arguments on principles which are completely flawed (and would be apparent if they bothered to do a quick google search). Hopefully most of those people don't actually have a vote.
Oh well, maybe the colonial jackboot was a metaphor too far for some sensitive souls. I'd say that there is a whiff of colonialism about parts of Britain's historical relationship with Scotland - from the Clearances to Churchill's tanks in George Square.
Who are you blaming for the clearances? I think you'll find it was mainly Scottish landowners.
Great example of ill-informed prejudice influencing voting decisions though.
They don't own the North sea gas, the UK does.International law would disagree with you.
Gas, not oil, where are all the gas fields?
Would vote No
English
Don't have a vote
No.
English.
Don't have a vote.
I am not sure that Scotland will stand well on its own and there's an awful lot of infrastructure that would need sorting out, currency being just one aspect. Ultimately I'm not convinced either country will come out of it better.
Was this irony?
I am also sure there were no Scottish slave traders and plantation owners in the Americas either.
Because this would suggest that Scotland had a slice in the slave trade:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Dunfermline/@12.1285946,-61.6156626,16z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x8c3819fd09637b19:0x6f3d8fdddea8e297
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Carriacou/@12.4537646,-61.4765739,15z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x8c387a53722524a7:0x84212d20ff812188
[quote=irelanst ]They don't own the North sea gas, the UK does.
International law would disagree with you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_economic_zone
Gas, not oil, where are all the gas fields?
Would vote No
English
Don't have a vote
If Scotland were to get a "geographical share" based on the median line it would mean about 90% of the UK's oil resources would be under Scottish jurisdiction.According to research by Prof Kemp, in 2010 the Scottish share of total oil production in the UKCS was more than 95% while for gas it was 58%. The Scottish share of total hydrocarbon production (including NGLs) was 80%. The Scottish tax share exceeded 90%. This reflects the much higher value of oil compared to gas.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-20042070