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I'm more argumentative in real life than on here 😬
Mostly I think because I'm not the most eloquent and gifted of writer.
I do find that discussions in life are getting more like dealing with a toddler who's had too much sugar and is due a nap.
"Share!"
"No!"
Then how do you know
Cos I used to, then stopped. Anyway a quick scan will tell you, you don't have to fully read something.
A couple of notable absentees from this thread I see.
I think he might be referring to those lucky people who can jump to a conclusion and/or insult without worrying about any reference to evidence or argument. You might end up trading insults but call it a discussion, not much of an edifying experience. Better off making the odd absurdist observation, humour can be subversive but makes people titter rather than shrill.
A couple of notable absentees from this thread I see.
They're in another thread, arguing with each other.
Yeah, I suppose in real life I'm more likely to discuss stuff, but online I just can't be arse with all the typing.
I rarely enter into the more heated "discussions" for several reasons:
- there too many people who think that they are expert on every subject matter, and confuse their opinion with facts. Frequently they have no direct experience of the issue being debated and spout off based on other people's opinions, not even other people's factual experience
- there seems to be an increasing intolerance of other people's opinions. If someone has a different point of view to your own it doesn't make them necessarily right or you necessarily wrong. The art of debate seems beyond many
I hope that Facebook and Twitter etc are not really representative of what people believe and behave like, it's more of an outlet or a kind of therapy.
Maybe the therapy angle should be explored more, with having a safe space where you can discuss anything you want and have a proper vent without being judged or punished. But then the rest of social media being more like real life where you are held accountable for the views and decisions you have and make.
It could help people chill the f##k out.
So those with humanist, socially aware, inclusive and sharing views are happy to keep politiely defending them, and the authoritarian, xenophobic, police state, Brexiting, greedy types are fed up with having their arguments pulled apart and trashed. 🙂
Yes I agree with the op. I get halfway through writing a reply and deleted as I can’t be bothered
So those with humanist, socially aware, inclusive and sharing views are happy to keep politiely defending them, and the authoritarian, xenophobic, police state, Brexiting, greedy types are fed up with having their arguments pulled apart and trashed.
TDLR; Ignorance is bliss.
Replying online you have to be so careful with wording, trying to be helpful by sharing actual experience or knowledge is quickly read as trying to have an argument. In the pub you are able to read so much more about how what you are saying is being received and processed.
Also, in the real word you can lead-in to a discussion by chatting around the subject, sharing a joke, so you are having a chat during which it becomes apparent that you think differently about something and respectfully explore each other's views. The comment-reply style online just seems adversarial.
I have neighbours who have very different views to me on some of the big recent topics. I cant bear to read their posts, but we've had some constructive chats in the pub because you have time to illustrate why you believe something different to be the case and understand the difference between opinion and actual objective evidence. There is also a moderation going on in public - people actually know when their views are unkind or socially less acceptable because they definitely reel their necks in when they have a live audience or can sense losing the room when go a bit far.
trying to be helpful by sharing actual experience
is dismissed as anecdote. 🙂
It's a whole new level of crazy out there with the rise of Qanon over here
I can't be arsed anymore as you can't argue with them
TBH I can't be arsed replying to a lot of threads these days. Eg the current XT vs Hope and frames for small riders - After a few replies most bases have been covered and while I can type an informative reply based on experience it's just adding to the noise. Much like this.
I do like to read some of the arguments though - it's healthy to expose yourself to a range of opinions, but it's a rare day on the internet when someone says "OK I admit I was wrong and your posts have changed my mind".
I’ll offer my opinion on subjects and then walk off
arguably worse than someone who is prepared to at least defend/justify their opinion.
I’ll offer my opinion on subjects and then walk off
arguably worse than someone who is prepared to at least defend/justify their opinion.
Posted 22 minutes ago
I think it's fair enough to post a quick view on a topic and not stick around for the full wrangle. People posting are rarely going to be convinced by someone arguing against them, but those of us casually scanning might want to see a counter argument. Or not. Feel free to disagree...
No. I never argue with people on the Internet.
Yeah, some of those posters on the best fighter jet thread who don’t know the difference between an interceptor and air superiority fighter really need setting straight, but honestly, what can you do?
Post of the day and deserved more love. 👏
There is also a moderation going on in public
Bingo
Don’t know if I’m missing some subtle wind-up here, but surely calling someone an arsehole is the exact definition of playing the man?
I wasn't being literal.
I mean pointing out that people are bickering and appealing for reasoned discussion usually earns accusations of hypocrisy (yeah but now you're arguing/ who made you a mod/ why is your opinion more important etc.) and such rather than reflection that they are in fact, acting like arseholes amd should probably think a bit more before they post.
I never argue with people on the Internet.
Yes you do.
Yes you do.
That's not an argument, it's just contradiction.
Edit: Cant be arsed.
If it something stupid, wheel size or pedal type for example, I ignore or troll😁, if it's something serious, racism say, I'm more likely to call people on it.
I don't do Twitter or Facebook though 😁
That’s not an argument, it’s just contradiction.
So you say.
I'm not allowed to argue unless you pay!
arguably worse than someone who is prepared to at least defend/justify their opinion.
You may consider it that way but rather than respond 2hrs ago I've just spent a pleasant 2 hours lying on the couch having a joint & whisky and staring out the window at the rain whilst daydreaming bout buggerall, much more rewarding than justifying my opinion wi folk i do not know nor have any inclination to know.
Hmmmm.....need something to eat now.
One of the reasons I like to argue and debate stuff is because it makes you actively think about your own position- looking up info can confirm or deny things you already thought, and sometimes the stress testing of making the argument, makes you realise you're not so sure yourself, and often the other person will make you think or provide a good counter or development that you've missed. I mean, i can't be the only person that's ever changed their position because of an argument on the internet... can I?
Or that's the idea at least. It doesn't work if everyone's just restating positions and opinions or throwing poo.
duggan
This, really. Its hard to escape the notion that the internet (or social media) is having an insidious effect on society in way that we won’t fully understand until it’s too late. Not really sure how you put that genie back in the bottle though.
I agree with a lot of what others have said as well.. but this hits a real nerve.
I think the media side is pretty well understood, the idea is simply to create divisive topics to create click bait and interactions ... I find more disturbing that: (Venn diagram)
a) We are normalised to this
b) It seems to be being fed with agendas other than just media clicks
c) It's now used as an excuse for government
d) divisive leads to almost religious dogma and narratives
(and probably e,f,g ...)
Putting that together in a haphazard form... overlain with #cancelculture etc. and I feel if we don't know or fully understand the actual insidious effects they are not good for society.
These merging narratives I almost find the most disturbing....as it seems to p[ush disturbing agendas together. The example comes to mind pre-social media is almost the Mid West religious, pro-life, pro-capital punishment, pro guns where it always seemed support of one makes the others more or less compulsory.
In the old pre-interwebby-social times there were (are) towns where I hear social acceptance is tied to this and I can see how a small mid-west town these get tied together...
I feel now that this is what happens in social media bubbles...
I think people in general are as decent as they’ve always been but its often not the picture that is being represented in the media or online and you’ve got to wonder what sort of effect this distorted representation will have.
Hard to say ... I feel that social media is spilling into real-life more than the inverse.
At least people are being conditioned into thinking along the lines of you are either for/against guns, capital punishment and abortion as a "package"
I think the writers of he thick of it nailed it with;
"Peter Mannion : This is the trouble with the public, they're ****ing horrible!
Emma Messinger : Peter, you can't say the public are ****ing horrible.
Peter Mannion : Yes I can, I've met them."
One of the reasons I like to argue and debate stuff is because it makes you actively think about your own position
Ah. Now i know where I'm going wrong.
I get the same on stuff like Facebook too; I’ll see post from people and think “that’s just bollocks”, but don’t bother calling them out because, well, see above. If they’re particularly bollocks I’ll probably just un-follow whoever it is.
I just stopped using Fb, three years ago in fact. I haven’t deleted it, I still use Messenger, because it’s how a bunch of my oldest friends keep in touch, but I just don’t bother with the main site; having said that, like DezB says, it’s useful for keeping up to date with what bands and artists are up to, which is all I ever use it for now.
It was my cousin posting up Chemtrail conspiracy bollocks that started the rot with me, what with Angry Tinkerbell and QAnon nowadays, I stay well away from it, for my own health - at my age, an aneurysm is the likely result of getting wound up by some jackass on Fb!
One of the reasons I like to argue and debate stuff is because it makes you actively think about your own position
That's beautifully reasoned, well said.
It's not the only reason, I'm just a contrary shitehawk, but it's certainly a driving factor.
Cougar
SubscriberThat’s beautifully reasoned, well said.
No it isn't!
I'll second (or third) what Northwind said. Posting on here actively makes me think about my own position and writing it down makes me better able to articulate that position in the real world.
Sometimes I don't have a formed opinion on something but another poster will furnish some information that helps shape my position. The coronavirus thread being a good example. (Shout out to TiRed)
Getting flamed is just par for the course and part of having your ideas tested. I got flamed a few months back for suggesting that wearing masks might be a good idea and that coronavirus bail out money would end up going to those that least deserved it and be a recipe for corruption. I was quite happy to be called am idiot and conspiracy theorist, in fact I had a little fun with it, winding people up by comparing the UK response to that of Kenya. It was quite helpful for smoking out the closet racists and those with unconscious bias. Good prep for the events that were just around the corner.
Yes.... reading the first page of this thread, I was wondering how long it was going to be before somebody talked about their own position evolving.
There was quite a lot of irony prior to that:
"I can't be bothered arguing with people on the internet any more - they never listen. I think it's better just to tell them that they're all wrong/bastards and then walk away".
I quite like our corner of the internet - and have found that on quite a few topics, having heard other peoples views, my own position does change. Maybe I don't come completely around to their way of thinking, but I certainly understand the merits of the other side better.
Getting flamed is just par for the course and part of having your ideas tested
I agree with this - but I think "flaming" is part of the problem, and encourages people to respond poorly, and simply reject whatever counterpoint is being made.
Actually...... scratch that ^ I've just read the
GRARGH, now I’m ‘too quiet!’
thread.
Some people should just be ignored.
Actually Batfink, you were spot on with both your posts!