Supposing you saw a black child with a golliwog, woud that be considered racist?
Does not matter who is holding the symbol of racism.
Yes.
I grew up when you could get golliwog badges, even had one myself, I was only about 6 years old.
Remember "The Black & White Minstrels Show" being on a Sunday evening as well.
Lots of racist things went on in the past, part ignorance, part racism.
Best left in the past.
More rascist than the local morris troop
It's a "side" not a "troop". You're being morrisist.
I took the term 'snowflake' to mean 'fragile' , as in dissolves away at the first sign of heat? Cant be arsed to look it up as I see it used a lot on youtube comments. Always a bad sign 😉
I missed out on the UK in the 70’s, seems like you had a lot of fun with dolls and jam jar cartoons, and dancing shows on TV.
I did experience racism however, segregation to be exact. Plenty of assemblies in school telling us to cross the street if meeting oncoming non-whites. Quite weird hearing Hispanics spout the same message about Blacks, and vice-versa. Watching people cross streets or never enter streets deemed Black territories (I have for this example used the term Black to cover all non whites, apologies)
I have thankfully made my own mind up about the colour of someone’s skin, it has absolutely no bearing on either thier personality nor attitude.
The Golliwog doll is a simple tool/image to depict a colour of a doll, it’s the underlying attitudes and base level roll play put into the doll whilst playing with it that determines whether you perceive it racist or racism. The same could be said for the Barbie Doll, and if I remember rightly they made a Black and Hispanic version of those too.
I’d offer up if you are predisposed to racism and your attitude towards it, then you’ll find racism in anything material or imagined.
With respect to gollywogs bearing no resemblance to people living or dead:-
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They are a representation of "**** minstrels" which were a common entertainment a hundred or so years ago in the US and Britain. Some were white people blacking up and some were black people dressing up on the grounds that "business is business".
To (most of) us the whole concept is tasteless and based on a patronising view of African Americans, but in the days of child chimney sweeps and people "in service" it wasn't such a big surprise.
The term snowflake is nothing to do with being white and everything to do with being fragile.
The Golliwog doll is a simple tool/image to depict a colour of a doll, it’s the underlying attitudes and base level roll play put into the doll whilst playing with it that determines whether you perceive it racist or racism.Not so neutral as that. The doll is a caricature and echoes some pretty unpleasant other caricatures
I had a black action man doll when little, I remember thinking he looked more like Shaft. My dad got it from the US.
The Golliwog doll is a simple tool/image to depict a colour of a doll, it’s the underlying attitudes and base level roll play put into the doll whilst playing with it that determines whether you perceive it racist or racism.
Not so neutral as that. The doll is a caricature and echoes some pretty unpleasant other caricatures
The problem with the golliwog is the people that think it is racist just because it is black. It is a character from a children's book with no racist intent.
Shows how much the "snowflake" thing has just become an unthinkingly used "insult" - it's usage did not arrive with any racial connotations whatsoever, but nor was it originally about fragility - the "special snowflake" thing was based on the (unproven but speculated) belief that every snowflake is unique (and hence "special").
This usage / meaning entered the popular lexicon after it appeared in Fight Club.
And yes, of course golliwogs are too loaded with racist connotations to be anything other.
I had one as a child and loved it, and still quite like them, current feelings probably influenced by childhood memories.
However I grew up in a largely white society, pretty isolated at that time, and, as far as I can remember, never saw a black person until my teens. I can see why they’re considered racist, and am happy to go along with that opinion, but I don’t think that I see them as ‘black’ or indeed of any race.
Pretty much this for me.
thing is if someone doesn't like it its not really a massive hardship is it?
However strange as it sounds i find the term snowflake offensive as i think its making someone feel bad about being upset about something. which i dislike.
I had a cuddly toy one as a nipper. It was called Golly. I cuddled it in bed. But that was the 60s where 3 year olds were allowed to be racist without being frowned upon.
Are they still a thing then? I must live a sheltered existence.
I do love a STW 'white middle-aged men defining racism' thread.
The problem with the golliwog is the people that think it is racist just because it is black. It is a character from a children’s book with no racist intent
No people think it is racist because it's an offensive characterisation of anyone who happens to be black.
Sometimes I think some people on here want to go back to the 70s when minorities knew their place.
Context is everything.
If you were talking about your toy & your toy is a golliwog, then no.
If it's someone of colour, then most likely yes.
[i]It is a character from a children’s book[/i]
which is
[i] a representation of “**** minstrels” which were a common entertainment a hundred or so years ago in the US and Britain. Some were white people blacking up and some were black people dressing up on the grounds that “business is business”.[/i]
which
[i]is tasteless and based on a patronising view of African Americans[/i]
I was born in the 1950s and the Robinsons golliwog was seen as perfectly acceptable at the time . But it was also the era in which it was seen as almost funny to watch Albert Johansen who was the first black footballer to play in the first division on the wing for Leeds United . In those days wingers pretty much ran up and down the touch line and crossed the ball and as he did so it was normal for the crowd to pelt him with banana skins to most people's amusement . Times have thankfully changed and neither is acceptable in the modern world .
Interesting IHN, do we know for certain that Upton took the inspiration for her Golliwog character from the "**** minstrels" or was it a coincidence?
It seems plausible to assume she might have done, but I'd be loath to claim she did without proof & she's not really here to defend herself either.
Yep.. historically it is a humiliating stereotype of a race of people.
And this thread while not racist, is pretty childish and unnecessary. Like a little kid trying to get attention by saying bum or willy
Not much to add to this really as I'm in broad agreement with the general consensus on here.
Things have moved on, I too had a doll when I was younger which probably had something to do with the fact that in the 60s and 70s (before my time) my grandad was the county Robertsons rep, driving across SE England and east Anglia setting up shop displays. You can imagine the amount of "memorabilia" we found when we did a garage clear out about 10 years ago. There was still a pretty healthy market for it and not by lunatic racists, just people who collect old stuff. Still, we didn't keep any of it as we viewed it as inappropriate, my grandad on the other hand sees nothing wrong with it.
But yeah, it's from another time and not something we would promote to our two children
[i]Interesting IHN, do we know for certain that Upton took the inspiration for her Golliwog character from the “**** minstrels” or was it a coincidence?[/i]
Golliwogs, in general, came from that inspiration. Upton may or may not have known that, and may or may not have cared, as many people at the time did not.
Times have changed, and (a lot) of people now do care about the use of the Golliwog and what it represents.
I'm a massive racist*.... I've gone a far as having a Golliwog magnet on the fridge.
*GF is mixed race.
do we know for certain that Upton took the inspiration for her Golliwog character from the “**** minstrels” or was it a coincidence?
Think you are stretching credulity to argue its not based on the thing it looks exactly like.
Think you are stretching credulity to argue its not based on the thing it looks exactly like
Standard approach to justify casual racism... see also, 'No one complained about it when I was growing up'
When I worked in Middleton there was a group of police officers who wore golliwog badges or ties and called themselves the golliwog club .They were known to be racist , they were known to be a racist clique .
Seems like a grey area to me.
It was Robertsons jam who gave out the badges not Robinsons they gave us the gloopy barley sugar drink
Have been accused of looking at busty classmates chest too often but it was her badges on her lapels i was eyeing up she had lots on show. Was i bad back then 40 years ago?
*GF is mixed race.
see i hate this, the are a "person" or "human being" no reflection on the poster as the phrase is considered the norm but it segregates people rather than describes them imho
Can't believe im posting in this thread. But then, i'm more disbelieving that the OP needed to ask this question - and has garnered any level of support.
<div class="bbp-reply-author">slimjim78
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Can’t believe im posting in this thread. But then, i’m more disbelieving that the OP needed to ask this question – and has garnered any level of support.
I cant sit on here all day !!! Gotta work !
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Its a forum we can all ask any question we like
Thanks for your input !
At this moment in time I couldn't care less either way on the subject...
...is having a black doll racist if a white child is playing with it ?
Context is everything.
If you were talking about your toy & your toy is a golliwog, then no.
Context is everything, but context very much includes the world we live in and the provenance of the things (physical or abstract) within it.
And the world we live in is one which increasingly views these dolls, given their clear provenance as a popularisation of a theatrical device used for blatantly racist mockery, as being obviously symbolic of that racism.
I think in its origin the golliwog was not intended to convey any negative racial undertone or inference - possibly affection.
Back when they were popular there was limited immigration and people were generally a little naive, in the same way my swimming club in Bradford back in the early 70's was called the "nignog club".
We've come a long way since then. don't airbrush it out, but accept it's consigned to history, and rightfully so.
is having a black doll racist if a white child is playing with it ?
You genuinely can't see the massive and fundamental difference between that doll and the subject of this thread? Jesus wept.
My Golliwog is definitely racist. You should hear what it calls Chinese people.
LOL. The thread should close on that 😉
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is having a black doll racist if a white child is playing with it ?
You genuinely can’t see the massive and fundamental difference between that doll and the subject of this thread? Jesus wept.
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<div>Oh come on ! Of course I do !!!!</div>
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Good, good. Sorry—I think my brain started self-harming halfway through the thread.
"Think you are stretching credulity to argue its not based on the thing it looks exactly like."
It was a genuine question because if you've read the origins of the golliwog there doesn't appear to be much racist about it. What it was subordinated into, sadly, is obviously racist. It certainly a grey area re. Upton as it's impossible to tell if she was a racist. After all the golliwog was just a character in a children book. Less an argument JY - more of an observation.
"Context is everything, but context very much includes the world we live in and the provenance of the things (physical or abstract) within it."
Indeed, but isn't it sad when something that was initially harmless - a playful character described as jovial, friendly & gallant in a children's story turns into something so offensive.
I'm not for one second defending it's derogatory use in the modern age, rather lamenting something that in it's original guise was really quite innocent or at least appears to be.
Though, I'll admit the choice of dress & colour of the golliwog does seem questionable......
Anyone fancy a drink in my local?
Though, I’ll admit the choice of dress & colour of the golliwog does seem questionable……
Well, this is the point, no? The imagery reproduced the costume and make-up used in minstrel shows which were, at the very least by today's standards, quite clearly racist. Whether the character itself was created with a racist motive or simply as a naive reflection of popular culture at the time (or even as an attempt to counteract racism) matters little: at the point of time which we inhabit, it represents a clear link to a racist practice which we would do well to consign unequivocally to the past.
I remember calling them Golliwogs and was told as a kid, that the Wogg part was the problem and should call them Golli's. I also had no idea about Woggs and found that quite strange as a kid.
My opinion is the term is racist if calling a person that. Calling a badge/doll by that name isn't, but I can understand if some people feel offended by it.