[Closed] Do animals fear their mortality like humans ?

If a dog/cat gets cancer they can be operated on cared for but is this right ? shouldn't nature take its course ?

I'm assuming you've never actually had a dog then?

The notion that animals don't have a sense of self preservation is bizarre. How would a species survive?

No. They are not self aware.

They *do* have a fight/flight mentality but that is just hard-wired into their sub-concious, but they don't sit there worrying about death, or paying the mortgage or their kids school grades or their wife sleeping with the neighbour...

Self-Pity by D H Lawrence

I never saw a wild thing
sorry for itself.
A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough
without ever having felt sorry for itself.

Regarding your first, I believe no. Of course, an animal may feel pain when breathing, but I don't think they'd link that to old age.

Do animals fear their mortality like humans ?

I don't particularly fear my mortality. It's the one adventure everyone gets to go on.

I don't particularly fear my mortality

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My Gran used to keep a few chickens on her farm.

One day the Old cockeral came to her, and started pulling at her trousers. She picked it up, it snuggled upto her, and died in her arms.

(this was not a Chicken who made a habit of seeking out a cuddle)

johndoh - Member

"I don't particularly fear my mortality"

But that may change as you sit in a hospital bed, coughing up blood with your family sat around..

if anything, i found myself [u]most[/u] comfortable with the prospect of my own death when i thought it was imminent.

OP

Is this about your cat,is it poorly again?

Looking forward to another fact-based thread.

if anything, i found myself most comfortable with the prospect of my own death when i thought it was imminent.

But that [b]may[/b] change

fasthaggis - Member

OP

Is this about your cat,is it poorly again?

No I don't own a cat ! Or any other pet for that matter.

Do domestic pets have a better life just because they go to vets...? If a dog/cat gets cancer they can be operated on cared for but is this right ? shouldn't nature take its course ? (im sure someone will come wading in saying humans get cared for etc but we are talking animals here)

We alter the course of nature, so we must surely take some responsibility.

In the wild and animal that becomes too old / ill to fend for itself will have a relatively short future. In our centrally heated homes with plates of cat / dog food, we can draw out the pain and suffering of old or ill animals indefinitely (well not quite...) therefore we have a responsibility to use a vet when appropriate*

* in my opinion 🙂

Is this about your cat,is it poorly again?

I believe it has ingested some sand again.

Siliconosis Vaginitis?

I hope they don't have self-awareness like we do. i wouldn't wish that on anyone that doesn't have to have it. Worrying about tax bills, schools, whether your work mates really like you, is your wife going to leave you..... vs barking at cats, sleeping, and going on long walks with some people who really care for you so much that you don't even have to hunt for your food.

I know what i'd choose.

And they call this EVOlution 🙄

Judging from all the weird, odd and sometimes downright disgusting, vile things that my dogs eat, I would say no they don't. Although the smaller one doesn't like swimming that much.

Siliconosis Vaginitis?

Quite a bad case, sadly.

Although, surgeons believe that they can operate after watching a [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innerspace ]documentary[/url] on microsurgery.

The ones that are true animals don't have a concept of mortality, but those which are reincartnated humans do... fact.

My cat, which is the reincarnation of Chuck D from Public Enemy, often questions the fact that he is on his 6th life and he only has 3 left...

I’m always wary of anyone wading in with black and white statements like “animals aren’t self-aware”. We’re animals, just like all the others, with behaviours and emotional drivers which are the product of physical and social evolution.

We might have gone further with language than anything of the others, and are a lot better/worse at exploiting our environment, but deep down, we have the same basic drivers and have similar social structures. Saying our love is “better” than an another animal's love just because we write poems and make rom coms and mine diamonds is ignoring why the emotional bond is there. It comes from the same place and does the same job.

If anything, some animals are more self-aware. “I’m a dog, smaller than that one, bigger than that one. Don’t like fighting, do like chasing small, fluffy things and sniffing lady dogs. Don't like peas or fireworks”

None of this “What do I want to be when I grow up?" "Am I ever going to be truly happy?" "What will I regret most when I’m dying?" nonsense.

For a moment there Jimmers, the picture at the top of that page as it loaded up on my phone...

If a dog/cat gets cancer they can be operated on cared for but is this right ? shouldn't nature take its course ?

Maybe, but letting nature take its course is often a life of pain and discomfort. Animals may not be self aware, but they will be aware they are in pain or discomfort.

I’m always wary of anyone wading in with black and white statements like “animals aren’t self-aware”. We’re animals, just like all the others, with behaviours and emotional drivers which are the product of physical and social evolution.

The mirror test is a perfect example of proving self-awareness or lack of it

No it isn't.

"The [b]mirror test is an experiment[/b] developed in 1970 by psychologist Gordon Gallup Jr. [b]to determine whether an animal possesses the ability to recognize itself in a mirror[/b].[1] It is used as an [b][u]indicator[/u] of self-awareness[/b] in non-human animals, marking entrance to the mirror stage by human children in developmental psychology."

It shows a level, or type of self awareness that allows recognition in a mirror. There are other indicators of different types of self awareness. It's a curve, not 0 or 1. My MiL isn't partuicularly self aware. My wife can recognise herself in her mother.

It says "non-human animals", but says immediately afterwards it relates to human animals too.

No I don't own a cat ! Or any other pet for that matter.

Would you like one ?

In a past life, I was a Honey Badger, spending my days striking fear into every damn thing in the Kalahari...

now obviously, I couldn't read the thoughts of the other animals, but if they had one iota of sense, they would've worried about their mortality in my presence.

That said, despite my projection of badassery into the habitat around me, in the tender recesses of my soul, I was actually quite an artistic type, carving intricate scenes of inspiring beauty into bits of bark n stuff.

Many was the time when hallucinating after being bitten by yet another cobra that I'd ponder the meaning of my existence and whether it was finite, whilst spinning colourful shapes and strange soothing noises bombarded my limited intellect.

Those were wild times and I'm not sure how I died, but I certainly don't remember any rocking chairs or thermos flasks.

Seriously though, I would imagine if an animal is getting into old age, then indicators such as loss of teeth, or in the case of the family dog, failing back legs, would trigger some recognition of the limited lifespan of the body...

That said, do animals, and indeed humans, have souls?

So at what age do humans become aware of their own mortality?

The vast majority of animal species are more appropriately thought of as a sort of complicated machine that feels pain rather than as oddly-shaped people who don't speak English.

That isn't a licence to torture them, it's a warning against imagining that what happens in their minds resembles what happens in yours.

So at what age do humans become aware of their own mortality?

The vast majority of animal species are more appropriately thought of as a sort of complicated machine that feels pain rather than as oddly-shaped people who don't speak English.

That isn't a licence to torture them, it's a warning against imagining that what happens in their minds resembles what happens in yours.

Isn't that what they used to say about otehr races? Or women?

I'd imagine a higher intelligence looking at humans could deduce we're pretty primitive, shockingly un-self-aware for a species that seems quite advanced in other areas.

And if you're a certain brand of geneticist, anthropologist, or philosopher, we're all "a sort of complicated machine".

You will know when animals become "self aware" (of death) when they become so scared of the unknown, they turn to imaginary concepts to explain it.

Just like humans did - it's called religion.

Anthropomorphism....

Owner; 'Ooooh, look at his little face, he's really pleased to see me. Aren't you my little funny doggy woggy?'

Dog; 'Get the food, big stupid food getter.'

Animals can't read the Daily Mail or use the tinterweb to self diagnosis how their feeling , so they must just get on with life and enjoy it .

I don't think these goats do?
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A lot of animals do feel similar emotions to humans like fear or stress, look at any ill treated animal in a zoo or home. Also, there are quite a few animals which appear to have emotional attachments to their offspring or are sociable and appear to need others of the same species around to give them a better quality of life. As has already been said, we are animals too, we have a lot more in common with our cousins than differences.

Isn't that what they used to say about other races? Or women?

Not really. It was always understood (for example) that women knew they were looking at an image of themselves in the mirror, could manage the (quite complex) analysis of consciousness necessary to master lying and had the same ability to use concepts in language.

A very, very small number of animal species get all that. If you're discussing (say) a bird that insistently assaults a mirror, apparently because there's an aggressive bird in there that looks just like it, then asking whether that bird wonders if there is an afterlife is bizarre - we've got no handle on what being that bird feels like at all, but there is absolutely no observable reason to suppose it worries about anything other than its surroundings.

There are some things that seem to be in a different league: big primates, cetaceans, elephants. It appears to be extremely species-specific. I'd still be extremely wary of imagining that we could "relate" in any meaningful sense to a dolphin though.

but they don't sit there worrying about death, or paying the mortgage or their kids school grades or their wife sleeping with the neighbour...

hmmm, neither do I, am I a dog? 😀

hmmm, neither do I, am I a dog?

Nope, you're human, just one of the lucky ones.

at what age do children become aware of the concept of mortality?

Had a sad conversation with a school dad on friday, whose wife died of cancer in September. She was a vet, and the subject of death (of pets) was readily discussed at home. Then she fell ill, incurably so, and the matter of her death was discussed at home too. The children had / have a perfect understanding of mortality, theirs and others. They cannot cope with the concept of 'never', as in 'will never see their mum again'.

Not wanting to enter into the biweekly STW regular of "is religion evil" but if believing that 'never' doesn't exist because one day they will see her again helps them until they are old enough to truly rationalise it (and I'm aware that some don't, or rationalise it in a different way to me), is that a bad thing.

is that a bad thing.

So lie then?

They cannot cope with the concept of 'never', as in 'will never see their mum again'.

[i]*gulp*[/i]

Second hardest thing about being an atheist is facing the stark cold reality of believing that when you die, you're gone.

The hardest thing is explaining that to your kids.

yes, if it gives two very upset children something to comfort them at this point in time.

GrahamS - Member
They cannot cope with the concept of 'never', as in 'will never see their mum again'.
*gulp*

Second hardest thing about being an atheist is facing the stark cold reality of believing that when you die, you're gone.

The hardest thing is explaining that to your kids.

As to animal awareness, dogs are aware of my existence and that is all that is important to me, they do also exhibit all manner of emotional behaviour and have varying levels of intelligence and communication, to that end, as I would wish would happen to me, they need relieving of pain and suffering at the end, which can be almost on a par with losing a human relative, in fact I'd go further and say worse in the case of some relatives.

I hope never to be in such a position, but I think I'd probably go with some suitably vague platitude like [i]"your mum will always be a part of you and she will always be with you. She lives in our hearts and our memories"[/i] rather than specifically going with the [i]"your mum's an invisible ghost who lives in the clouds"[/i].

But I can certainly see the temptation.

Am working from home today so decided to let the rabbit run around the kitchen while I work at the table. He just hopped up to the spaniel and give her a sniff on the nose.

Not sure if that's an indication of a fearless rabbit or an overly soft spaniel though.

He's now sat in the cats litter tray having a wee.

Atheists are worse than theists in that regard, what's wrong with agnosticism ffs

Rather depends how you define agnosticism and which branch of agnostic thought you follow.

I don't believe in a deity that created our Earth/Universe, who watches over us, answers prayers, smites enemies and looks after our dead etc. That makes me an atheist to most folk.

I don't think we are alone in the universe, and I'm comfortable with the thought that there [i]may[/i] be some life/consciousness out there which is so far beyond our current understanding that it is "God-like". Maybe it can even create entire planets and universes. Who knows. That makes me an agnostic to some folk.

Take your pick.

Any scientifically-minded atheist should be open to changing their opinion if suitable evidence is presented, so in that sense they are all [i]a bit[/i] agnostic.

In response to the OP, I've asked our cats and they said no.

Second hardest thing about being an atheist is facing the stark cold reality of believing that when you die, you're gone.

The hardest thing is explaining that to your kids

What a load of old cobblers!

Far and away the hardest thing about being an atheist is having people make assumptions about what the hardest thing for you is.

...and when your kids get older, will they continue to believe some religious explanation, or will they work out that you told them lies?

Fair enough crikey, perhaps I should have prefixed that thought with [i]"For me.."[/i]

If you are entirely free from existential angst and an almost crushing sense of nihilistic ennui then more power to you.

If you are entirely free from existential angst and an almost crushing sense of nihilistic ennui then more power to you

Hey wait a minute!

You can't claim those things all for yourself, and I can do existential angst as well as the next man. I might need a bit of time to work up to the full nihilistic ennui, but I can also do basic ennui-ing with aplomb.

Bloody agnostics, coming here with their clever bet hedging....

The vast majority of animal species are more appropriately thought of as a sort of complicated machine that feels pain...

...and when your kids get older, will they continue to believe some religious explanation, or will they work out that you told them lies?

I think using emotive terms like "told them lies" is stretching things a bit far.
Most people wouldn't grow up and think "what a ****ing liar my dad was!" They'd more likely think, "he did that to make things easier for me"

Might they not also grow up bitterly resenting it?

I can imagine that [i]some[/i] children might. You're basically saying to them: mum is now somewhere else having a really great time without them, and no, she won't be back to visit, but don't worry she's looking forward to the day they die too.

Most people wouldn't grow up and think "what a **** liar my dad was!" They'd more likely think, "he did that to make things easier for me"

Although I have had to explain to my two kids why they go to a cemetery regularly (both my parents) but they can cope with that because they were too young to remember them, however if something was to happen to a living relative now, I would certainly consider letting them believe that there is a heaven of some kind to make things slightly easier to accept.

After all, we tell them that Santa is real...

I think using emotive terms like "told them lies" is stretching things a bit far.

I think we will have to differ in our assessment of how emotive my sentence was; I could have used a variety of terms, but the basic premise remains.

We tell many, many lies to children, some based around belief, some based around convention, some based around social cohesion, but they remain lies.

The crux of my question seems to have slipped under your radar; this is the important bit:

[b]will they continue to believe [/b]

I suspect most grown ups really, actually, truthfully don't believe the religious explanation, so using it is a way of putting off an awkward and emotionally difficult conversation. Not much wrong with that, but I think being open and honest is a far better way of approaching things.

...not to mention the pitfalls, particularly with precocious children...

Is Granny in heaven?
Is our dog in heaven?
Are chickens dead?
Are chickens in heaven?
Why can't we go to heaven to see Granny?
Will she be eating the chickens?
Do they go to heaven twice then?

...and so on.

will they continue to believe

Probably not. Telling a child this lie isn't likely to set them up for a life of religious belief.

Obviously not all lies are bad. Anyone who thinks they are is a sociopath. (Not aimed at you Crikey! 🙂 )

Obviously not all lies are bad.

I agree wholeheartedly, and 'selective untruths' are a major part of how we learn about more complex issues. I think I've read a book, maybe 'The Science of Discworld' series where 'lies to children' is a phrase used to explain this process better.

...and so on.

Is mum in heaven?
Why can't I see her?
When will I see her again?
But I want to see her now, not when I'm old and dead. I need her now when I'm a child. Why isn't she here with me instead of having fun with angels and sky ghosts?

Is mum in heaven?
Why can't I see her?
When will I see her again?

It's a thorny one, I admit.

In this case, I'd imagine that no matter what is said, the emotional damage is pretty big.

I'd still be extremely wary of imagining that we could "relate" in any meaningful sense to a dolphin though.

Some would disagree...

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ooo it turned into a good thread lots of enjoyable stuff to read

ooo it turned into a good thread lots of enjoyable stuff to read

Yep, just researching Dolphin sex now. So much I've been missing out on......

Right now on BBC2 - Inside the Animal Mind.

Is this thread some subtle viral advertising?

Is this thread some subtle viral advertising?

No but will watch it on repeat