Is it all the spam, fags and Jeremy kyle ?
In Oldham it was generally the beer. Some of the characters I came across growing up there probably made the mould for the sort of stereotypes being discussed here. Some people's idea of a good night out was 10 pints of bitter topped off with a massive deliberate fight - preferably with some ethnic minority or someone from another county. Yes they did happen to live in council houses.
But I am bothered about people calling me a racist if I chose to wave and england flag whilst not being at a football match!
As anyone ever done that though? It's all about the context in which the flag is displayed. Also when I do see a George Cross flag outside a house in an area where there are well known racial tensions, I make a premise about the owner's attitude to race, not a conclusion. Quite different things.
Far right groups are preaching hate under the banner of the George Cross.. A significant proportion of people on this thread are distrustful of the very tiny minority who choose to display the George Cross, as a direct result of the actions of far right groups..
Surely the so-called proud 'patriots' in this thread, and the PC brigade, should be taking issue with the far right, rather than the liberals and lefties that feel threatened by their actions?
Cougar - Moderator
As for the swastika, that was the symbol of the political party of one Adolf Hitler. Maybe you need to explain why you're grouping people who display a nation's flag through pride with the one and only nazi party...
Because it's a good example of a symbol's meaning changing over time, presumably. The angled cross has been used by many, many cultures for a very long time, almost always with a positive meaning, before old Adolf got hold of it.
Exactly, there are many societies around the world who use the swastika as part of their religious symbolism, and it's been found on pretty much every continent, even North America, where it appears on wall paintings as part of the First Nations creation mythology.
It does strike me as very odd that symbols adopted by the far right, even relatively small groups of individuals, are then seen as racist, and that 'reclaiming' them is regarded as difficult, even when huge numbers of people display them to show their pride in their own country it's still held by certain commentators that that majority is quite clearly rascist, but symbols used by the far left are displayed quite openly, are held to be iconic, and nobody bats an eyelid, even when the symbol was used by governments and terrorist groups who slaughtered quite literally tens, maybe even hundreds of millions of their own people, and those of other countries.
I refer to this:
[img] 
[/img]
To anyone who suggests that's nowhere near the same as showing a flag with this:
[img] 
[/img]
should talk to survivors of Stalin's purges, Mao Tse Tung, the Kmer Rouge, Sendoro Illuminoso, Robert Mugabe...
I have a set of patches* on my flying jacket at the mo' with Soviet iconography, they are crew patches from [i]Leonov[/i], the ship that appeared in 2010: Odyssey Two, which nobody gives two hoots about, but imagine if I used a set of German Luftwaffe patches from a period war film...
* They alternate with a set of [i]Nostromo[/i] patches, just for the fun of it.
In Oldham it was generally the beer. Some of the characters I came across growing up there probably made the mould for the sort of stereotypes being discussed here. Some people's idea of a good night out was 10 pints of bitter topped off with a massive deliberate fight - preferably with some ethnic minority or someone from another county. Yes they did happen to live in council houses.
Born and bred in Owdham, still live there, Moorside area to be precise, its always been a rough town and probably always will, thats what happens when industry drops away leaving several different communities with very little prospect. I do not believe your description paints a true picture, in reality i would say the racial tolerance is fairly balanced across all communities. I think your comments are tainted with a bit of shame/snobbery.
In brief their flag represents their freedom from an oppressive imperial power,
It's not about you! that's a curiously Anglocentric view of America.
Good thread.
comments [s]are[/s] tainted with a bit of shame/snobbery.
And therein lies the whole issue.
Thornberry was a prize asshat for posting that picture, she knew damn well what she was saying, it was a horrid piece of snobbery. "Oh, look at the proles with their flags. How [i]frightful[/i]. Take me back to Islington and my organic quinoa immediately, driver!"
To then have the cheek to complain of discrimination against Islington was laughable. To have claimed that she'd never seen a house draped in flags was laughable. Her original claim that she'd never seen a house draped in "British" flags was not only laughable but downright stupid to boot. In short, she was an asshat.
Ed M did well here, I thought, by nipping it in the bud sharpish. Regardless of the rights or wrongs of what she might have intended by her tweet (And I think we all know what she meant!) he did well to get her out.
However, his interview today, when asked what he thought when he saw a white van outside a house, was painful in the extreme.
Sky: “What goes through your mind when you see a white van outside a house?”
EM: “What goes through my mind is respect.”
What? Seriously? I think, "Oh, there's a white van", if I think anything at all about it. But to claim that the thing going through your mind is "respect" is silly! Unless he means it in an Ali G kinda way...."Respekk, blud, yagetmefam?".
Despite that dreadful interview, I still think Ed did the right thing here. Good for him.
t was a horrid piece of snobbery. "Oh, look at the proles with their flags. How frightful. Take me back to Islington and my organic quinoa immediately, driver!"
She was being judgemental about someone who has a number of flags on his house and it would appear with good reason. It had nothing to do with proles in general IMHO it as about people who fly flags outside their house voting UKIP it was oh look racist support UKIP...hardly a revelation or a controversial point I would have thought.
What goes through your mind when you see a white van outside a house?”
Its a pretty dumb question tbh
Its a pretty dumb question tbh
It was, and he should have treated it as such. Should have said, "There's a white van outside that house". Not some waffle about respect.
She was being judgemental about someone who has a number of flags on his house and it would appear with good reason.
Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing? Justifies one's prejudices so well. She was being prejudicial, and just because it (ex post facto) might suit the narrative you choose doesn't excuse the action, I feel.
The thing with prejudging is we all do it every day and all the time. Its why no one turns up at your work for meetings dressed like a beach bum or a stoned hippy or dressed as a Nazi. they are only a problem if
1. it is all we do
2. the judgement we reach is massively at odds wih the reality
Neither of these was the case so the "prejudice" holds
TO just go yeah you prejudged him and that is bad [ even though the judgment was correct ] is a but daft.
One of those with prejudice thogh and it depends if the ones you reach are a broadly accurate reflection of reality or not
For example saying all Muslims are terrorists is poor and inaccurate one
As for hindsight if you cannot judge folk from a few pieces of information then you are lacking in some fairly essential life skills. It wont always be correct but first impressions matter
here are some other people fpr you tp practice with
[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
Is it OK if say he's racist? After all, I'm not in politics.
I can't believe this thread has gone 6 pages and no one has pointed out the real elephant in the room.It's not the England/St George flag that's the issue, it's the West Ham flag.Thornberry's clearly a Bushwhacker 😉
"Oh, look at the proles with their flags. How frightful. Take me back to Islington and my organic quinoa immediately, driver!"
There is no evidence that she thought flags hanging from the roof gutter was "typical" working-class, in fact the reason for taking the picture was presumably because of its perceived uniqueness, otherwise there would have been no point in taking it, obviously.
Furthermore she is far more likely to be aware of how "the proles" live by observing her own constituents in Islington. Islington is an undeniably more deprived area than Rochester.
Indeed it is the working-class vote in Islington which makes it a safe Labour seat, and the middle-class vote in Rochester which makes it a (formerly) safe Tory seat.
If her sentiments were as you suggest then "take me back to Islington and my organic quinoa immediately, driver" wouldn't make any sense. Far more sensible would be to insist to her driver that she wasn't going back to Islington.
If this is snobbery as you claim Flashheart then it's clear that New Labour simply aren't anywhere up to your standards.
But anyway Flashheart, since you have made an untypical foray into a political thread can I ask you how you feel about the real story to come out of Rochester, not this trivial side issue, ie, the Tories losing one of their safest seats in the country ? How do you feel about that ?
It is interesting how many non working class types think it was snobbery towards the entire working class- FWIW how many working class folk have a drive and a garage ? Not up north anyway- rather than a pretty obvious dig of look nationalists [ polite for closet racist i think] vote UKIP.
Hardly a stunning revelation either
[quote=bone_idle ]
"I'll bet some of his friends are black"
Listen to yourself your worse than Thornberry, another judgmental ****, you know nothing of the man.
Well nothing apart from what he's been quoted, and indeed a general judgement based on how he looks. Maybe the latter is being judgemental, but what do you think the chances are that he doesn't conform to the stereotype and is a left wing vegetarian pacifist - though we then come back to what he's been quoted as saying which tends to confirm the initial impression.
Not that such a comparison with Thornberry is particularly damning - not if you're not a politician. Her tweet was politically unwise, but not otherwise particularly offensive apart from to the professionally offended.
This is a difficult one. I would not have put a post on social media of a strangers house with an identifiable reg plate from a van. Seems intrusive. She should have known better. Having said that, the Sun seem to have wheeled out the person in question who on balance appears a bit unsavoury.
On balance I feel a sense of injustice towards Thornberry. Resignation/sacking seems like Millibands way of trying to bring potential UKIP voters on board rather than doing his job properly to tempt people to vote labour by fair means.
"Oh, look at the proles with their flags. How frightful. Take me back to Islington and my organic quinoa immediately, driver!"
That doesn't make sense. the idea that Islington is all organic quinoa is just nonsense spouted by people who have never been there (provincial paperclip salesmen, for example). Islington has the greatest disparities of wealth and poverty within the same ward anywhere in the UK. there's a huge council estate within a couple of hundred metres of where she lives (if I'm roughly right about where she lives). there are tons of people who live around her that fly English flags when there are big footy tournaments.
it might be because I'm snobby myself but I don't think her tweet was in the sense of "look at these horrible scruffs", but more in the sense of "here I am door knocking in what's obviously a UKIP v Tory dogfight over immigrants and now I have to try to convince a St George's flag-flying white van man to vote Labour #hopeless #fml".
PS her own constituency is one in which the middle class increasingly votes Lib Dem or Green and the working class don't vote Labour en bloc. depending on how spectacularly Clegg can alienate those who voted for his party before, she might keep her seat again, but you've got to think she's right to feel hopeless...
it might be because I'm snobby myself but I don't think her tweet was in the sense of "look at these horrible scruffs", but more in the sense of "here I am door knocking in what's obviously a UKIP v Tory dogfight over immigrants and now I have to try to convince a St George's flag-flying white van man to vote Labour #hopeless #fml".
So sterotyping and judgemental then. Do white van men/St George's flag flying individuals not vote for or consider voting for labour ?
So sterotyping and judgemental then. Do white van men/St George's flag flying individuals not vote for or consider voting for labour ?
I'm guessing that you have done very little canvassing, if you had you would be aware that the visual presentation of a property can provide an excellent indication of the occupants likely voting intentions, the length of the drive to the front door is a good example.
People politically stereotype themselves, you don't have to do it for them. And it's only judgmental if you believe that there is a correct and an incorrect way to vote.
Never is there enough time to speak to every voter in an election campaign. Sometimes it's not worth wasting time on no hopers when you can concentrate on your precious time on activity which is more likely to get you a positive result.
The person in question is not a Labour voter. If that was Emily Thornberry's assessment then she was correct.
[quote=ernie_lynch said]
The person in question is not a Labour voter.
She's made sure of that 🙂
I don't think he was influenced by her, despite the huge media attention given to the by-election because of its possible historic UKIP significance, the geezer wasn't aware that there was an important election in his home town.
Initially he claimed to have voted Tory in 2010 but said he didn't know why, then yesterday it was reported that he couldn't remember when he last voted.
It turns out that the geezer is daft as you would expect someone who claims to have England flags on display to upset people from 'ethnic minorities' to be.
Emily Thornberry doesn't appear to have needed to contribute anything to the process.
what do you think the chances are that he doesn't conform to the stereotype and is a left wing vegetarian pacifist - though we then come back to what he's been quoted as saying which tends to confirm the initial impression
THIS
So sterotyping and judgemental then. Do white van men/St George's flag flying individuals not vote for or consider voting for labour ?
Have you heard his comments on this?
They include I voted tory, I dont vote I know the flag annoys some ethnic minorities...all reported on this thread - one post iirc.
In this case what do you think Sherlock?
It may well have been all the things you claim it was but, and this is important, it was also true and accurate.
Here are some more pictures for you.
Please dont tell me you cannot make pre judgments about what these people stand for and may represent based on a picture.
[img] 
?1[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
HAve you heard his comments on this isuues
They inc;ude I voted tory, I dont bote I knwo th eflag annoys some ethnic minorites
In this case what do you think Sherlock?
Thornberry knew all this from a pavement walk by ? She's the Sherlock with those powers.
Yes she was able to look at it and work out some of his likely views and attitudes just like you can when you look at those pictures above. I guess that is why you made no comment on them 🙄 We all know we all can do this we all know we do this.
Its pointless to say she made a pre judgment of them
Please dont tell me you cannot make pre judgments about what these people stand for and may represent based on a picture.
[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
The sooner we all as individuals relate and unite on common humanity (and promote such a culture) the better for all of us. It is tempting to play on stereotypes, a shortcut to pride/superiority (ie 'so glad I'm not like THEM') and this is surely equally true for both snobbery and so-called 'reverse snobbery' (In my mind the two are closely related enough to be considered essentially the same thing).
When a flag stands for an idea we can look at the idea and have a better chance to discuss it openly. When a flag stands for a Nation it is by nature a changing goalpost and used variously as a standard for a host of unrelated stuff - some positive, some terribly negative. The nature of a National flag is such that can so easily invite a 'with us or against us' conversation. I hope one day that we look back and see flags as a cultural relic, although the pessimist in me knows that we are currently not far evolved from territorial troops of chimps 🙁
Yes, look at this Sun-reading tosser. 🙂
[img] 
[/img]
The sooner we all as individuals relate and unite on common humanity (and promote such a culture) the better for all of us.
Difficult. How about our shared dislike of Miliband?
Human enjoying salacious gossip and rivalry just yesterday:
[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
So sterotyping and judgemental then. Do white van men/St George's flag flying individuals not vote for or consider voting for labour ?
it's possibly stereotyping (and if it is, the guy turned out to be a pretty stereotypical white van man), and the judgement was political rather than moral - "eff me, this is gonna be a hard sell, especially when we're running in third or possible fourth place".
[img] 
:large[/img]
Worrying that a potential PM claimed that he was "angrier than he had ever been" over this. Will need some career coaching if he gets the main job. Current judgement doesn't bode well, does it......
The person in question is not a Labour voter. If that was Emily Thornberry's assessment then she was correct
@ernie, I the the very relevant question here is whether historically the WAS a Labour voter ? My betting is he was indeed a Labour voter in the past
Worrying that a potential PM claimed that he was "angrier than he had ever been" over this. Will need some career coaching if he gets the main job. Current judgement doesn't bode well, does it......
I totally agree. IMO the most depressing aspect about this otherwise trivial story, if you can call it a story, is the revelation that it made Miliband the angrier he's ever been.
Miliband will quite possibly be UK prime Minister next year he really needs to prioritise what to get angry over.
I have never held Miliband in very high esteem but now he's gone down a couple of more notches after this incident.
And the moronic comment about feeling a sense of "respect" whenever he sees a white van or a house draped in St George’s flags didn't help ffs.
Labour needs a New King in New Clothes. Britain on the other hand needs to find it's heart before the spleen eats the host.
I can believe it made milliband that angry he's been getting a rogering in the pesss this wouldve been his first Sunday morning in a while where the papers weren't shitting on him from a great height
As for was he ever a labour voter, I'd say Dan's always been a rightwinger, looking at his danifesto !
[quote=ernie_lynch ]It turns out that the geezer is daft as you would expect someone who claims to have England flags on display to upset people from 'ethnic minorities' to be.
Well now you're being unfair on the poor misunderstood chap. He only claimed that he didn't care who it pissed off, not that that was the aim.
[quote=The Huffington Post]'White Van Dan', the man whose home was "sneered" at by Labour MP Emily Thornberry has written his own "manifesto", or, "Danifesto," in The Sun Newspaper.
Do you think he got help holding the crayons?
<joke, joke, joke, for the benefit of the professionally offended>
Though I do wonder whether the Sun journalists are sneering at him now.
Milliband really is an unsophisticated, lying, pathetic git who stands about as much chance of being elected prime minister as I do. I thought he was shit before this cockup, and he has really proven himself to be as uncomfortable in his own skin as he looks. I've never approached a general election feeling so despondent. I've always voted and always voted labour, but this time I'm not sure I'll be able to bring myself to.
He only claimed that he didn't care who it pissed off, not that that was the aim.
Here's a quote attributed to him : [i]"I will continue to fly the flags. I know there is a lot of ethnic minorities that don't like it"[/i]
It seems to me that the aim is to upset "a lot of ethnic minorities". Quite why he thinks they might be upset by his St Georges flags I don't know.
But I get your point, let's not be too hasty and jump to conclusions concerning the cage fighting second hand car dealer.
For all we know he might be deeply wounded by the thought that he unintentionally upsets his ethnic minority neighbours with his expressions of patriotic fevour.
[quote=bol ]Milliband really is [s]an unsophisticated, lying, pathetic git[/s] a politician who stands about as much chance of being elected prime minister as I do.
Is your real name Dave? Or (god forbid) Boris? Because sadly he does still stand quite a good chance of being PM - it's like having to choose between horse poo and cow poo.
I've never approached a general election feeling so despondent.
I felt like that in 1997 on the eve of the general election when it became clear that Tony Blair would become Prime Minister with a massive majority. I felt utterly despondent.
Eventually time proved that Tony Blair turned out to be even worse than I had dreaded.
[quote=ernie_lynch ]Here's a quote attributed to him : "I will continue to fly the flags. I know there is a lot of ethnic minorities that don't like it"
Ah well the full quote from the source I found is "I will continue to fly the flags - I don't care who it p----s off. I know there is a lot of ethnic minorities that don't like it." I'm sure it is just my prejudice which means I wouldn't trust any journalist to write a straight article on this story though.
