[Closed] Digital SLR info: buy now or wait for new stuffs?

Like computers innit. The best time to buy one is always in 6 months time.

* wanders off to google Canon 550Ds [b]AGAIN[/b]

No not really Geoff. I've always said that when dijical matches fillum, then I'll switch. With the FX sensor, this moment has arrived, I feel. You're playing with the same size of 'neg', aren't you?

Have toyed with the idea of getting a cheap s/h D100/200 or something, or even a basic D70 just to play about with, but budget will be tight, and I'll probbly need every penny I can raise for a decent cam.

Only issue with the D700 is it's a bloody big bugger. something smaller would be better for me really. A dijical FM2 would be perfect....

Have a look on here:

[url= http://bythom.com/ ]Thom Hogan.[/url]

He generally knows what's going on at Nikon, and doesn't predict a cheaper full frame camera soon.

I think he might be blowing out a bit of smoke here:
Canon have one, so it doesn't make much sense for Nikon to rule themselves out of a lucrative market sector.

And don't completely discount DX.
The quality can be amazing, and it's very cheap compared to the current FX stuff.
My 18-70 DX lens is one of the best I've ever owned.

Greys of Westminster have some good deals on cheaper stuff at the mo.

Sorry, I was taking a simplistic view of it really. The sensor size may have got to where you want it to be, but there will always be developments / new models which will push the price of the older models down.

Consumer DSLR Kit with full frame sensor for less than £500 in the next 3 years?

Anyway, surely there should be an advocate of Olympus kit on this thread by now - eh Molly?

I would love to have the cash to buy a D700 & yes its been around for some time now, you are not the only one wishing Nikon would bring out a cheaper/budget FX body 😉

If you are looking at a DX body, the D90 is also a old model and the prices are dropping, not as bulky as a D300/D700, but still a decent camera, been very pleased with mine, please note its not sealed like the D300/700, so you do need to take more care when you are out with it.

Consumer DSLR Kit with full frame sensor for less than £500 in the next 3 years?

That would be very nice 😉

Last word Elfinsafety,

Coming from a life long fan of Nikon kit, have you thought about a Canon D5 used, I know it would mean a total change, but the one I used recently, build and focusing screen were very good & you seem to see them touted about at some silly prices second hand.

[url= http://www.nikon1.co.uk/en_GB_N1/models.page?#p2 ]Nikon have just released a new compact system camera with an even smaller sensor (CX)[/url] so I'm not sure they will ever bring FX sensors to consumer level.

So, what I'd ideally like is a Nikon D700, as it has the full frame FX sensor. Means all my existing lenses will work as I'm used to, plus I can buy cheap older MF lenses.

Have you actually tried a DX body Elf?

All your existing lenses will "work" - it's just the field of view will be different to what you are used to (a 50mm will have a FoV more like a 75mm).

MF lenses will still work fine and the D80/D90 bodies have the body AF motors so you can use older AF lenses too.

It'd be a change to overcome but it would be [i]considerably[/i] cheaper than going for an FX body.

I might be selling my 400D soon if you like? Canon though...

And don't completely discount DX.

Sorry, but I'm used to proper cams, and DX sensor stuff just messes with my head; I mean, a 24mm lens is a 36mmm on DX, that's just plain wrong. 😐 I might get a cheapo one for biking and stuff though, something that can be knocked about without worrying too much about it. But I'm used to proper nice cams, I want something tough, water and knock resistant, reliable and capable as a main cam, which is the D100/200/300 level up. Lower models just feel a bit plasticky. When you've used stuff like an FM2 and F5, you don't want a lightweight plasticky cam. I've also used Contax, Hasselblad, Leica, so I 'need' a solid cam.

 

I've used nice cameras too Elf, F's, FM's, Spotmatics etc, but get on just fine with a D80.

You just need to recalibrate your expectations 🙂

A D70s, secondhand, would be perfect to try DX.
Better metering than the later D80, excellent build quality and much cheapness.

The picture quality of a nice DX lens/camera is superb, IMO.

Of course, if you're not prepared to compromise, you're just going to have to shell out for D700 aren't you?

If you use twitter at all follow @hcsheffield (Harrisons Cameras Sheffield) They always have a steady flow of good, quality used items and will post when it comes in, so you can grab.

They are better than Ebay etc, and will also trade any equipment Part EX if required.

When you've used stuff like an FM2 and F5, you don't want a lightweight plasticky cam. I've also used Contax, Hasselblad, Leica, so I 'need' a solid cam.

Leica do a m9 if you are into your engineering, but tbh, I did not find the transfer from my FM2n/F2's to digital that hard, anoying frustrating when all I wanted to do was set 125th at f5.6 & I miss the bright split prisim focusing screen, but digital has been a breath of fresh air to me and got me back into enjoiying my photography again, even though I am still learning all over again.

Now if Nikon want to produce a Nikon DM2n I am here waiting with my creditcard 😉

Just a little note... your nice flash guns may not work with a DSLR. Something to do with different voltages or something. Have a google, but I was told not to buy an old flash gun when I was buying mine.

I miss the bright split prisim focusing screen

Do Nikon not offer alternative focus screens? I use both the EE-s and EC-s screens in my Canon bodies and the difference is like night and day (no pun intended).

Find it much much easier to accurately focus with larger f1.2 lenses.

DX sensor stuff just messes with my head; I mean, a 24mm lens is a 36mmm on DX, that's just plain wrong.

That's just numbers though innit?

A medium format blokey would think a 50mm lens was wide angle, on FX 50mm is "normal", on DX it is "longish normal".

Basically focal length is a bit of a crap way to describe lenses as it means different thing to different film/sensor sizes.

Fair enough on the comments about the quality of the body though. My D80 feels pretty tough (I happily let it hang round my neck, tucked into my jacket while taking photos snowboarding) but I doubt it would stop a bullet.

Bear in mind that even the "pro" D300s is a DX format though.

If I could, I definitely would upgrade to full frame (probably will next year depending on how many weddings I book). But not for the same reasons as you Elf. I also come from a long line of old, metal-bodied Nikons and still have an F4s and a couple of FM2ns.

But I use two D300s for all my work (and a D200 backup which never sees the light of day). And the only reason I'll be upgrading is better performance in low light. The D300 is light years better than the D200, and I've heard from plenty of other pros that the D700 is light years better than the D300.

I've had zero issues moving from 35mm lens expectations to crop sensor lenses though - it takes about a day to get your head round the fact that your 50mm is now a perfect portrait lens 🙂 If I was going to get a do-it-all lens, I would get the 18-70mm one mentioned above - it's immense. I had one which came with my first ever D70s - I gave the whole kit to my Mum and really miss the lens...

A D70s, secondhand, would be perfect to try DX.
Better metering than the later D80, excellent build quality and much cheapness.

Nasty viewfinder though - I upgraded from the D70s to the D80 for pretty much that reason.

Elfin - I have a very good condition, hardly used D200 body that I can sell you at a good price. I've been procrastinating about selling it for ages as it was bought on an 'I want to get into photography' whim and I just never found the time. I'll even throw in some Cokin filters.

Email in profile if you want to discuss.

Cheers,
Iain.

I'm another one who just wishes someone would build a digital full frame FM2 or OM1 type camera where all the digital bit does is replace the film and the camera remains essentially manual. It'll never happen though as the market will always be too small.

wishes someone would build a digital full frame FM2 or OM1 type camera where all the digital bit does is replace the film and the camera remains essentially manual

There's nothing to stop you using a Digital SLR with manual focus, exposure, ISO and white balance. Or am I missing something?

I have a D80 and was hankering after the D700. When it came out I thought that it would signal the end of DX sensors. However the performance of the D7000, especially in low light means that this is now the camera I would buy.
The d700 and D90 are getting long in the tooth now in camera years. Nikon are also a long way behind Canon in the video standards that can be achieved.
I think my next camera will be a DX based replacement for either the D90 or D7000. If Nikon continue to make impressive progress on low light performance and if they can match Canon on video then my custom is assured.

There's nothing to stop you using a Digital SLR with manual focus, exposure, ISO and white balance. Or am I missing something?

For me, I would love a camera with the build & construction of say a Nikon FM2/FM3, but digital & with added features such as AF/spot metering, but still retain a simple manual exposure system

But as avdave2 said, it will never happen 😉

Anyway, surely there should be an advocate of Olympus kit on this thread by now - eh Molly?

I'm hardly going to recommend Oly to a chap who wants to use all his old Nikon kit now am I? Although the E-3 second hand is probably your cheapest weather sealed rufty tufty pro level camera by miles, I'd expect 🙂

I would not get hung up on sensor size either BUT there is more to it than just the numbers. With a 2x crop factor like me, getting a field of view equivalent to a 50mm in 35mm terms means a 25mm lens, which means a retrofocal design which works out either bigger, heavier, more elements or slower, or any combination of the above. And a 35mm equivalent is just not available, although one is coming out in micro 4/3 but it's dead expensive.

Also I hate manual focusing without a split circle - however these are retrofittable to most Olys at least.

Could someone not make a roll of 35mm film with sensor on it? Put the electrics in the 'roll' part? How hard would it be?

I still like my old/basic Pentax ME super, would be cool to make it digital!

TINAS, I expect that was the first thing they thought of when trying to make digital SLRs.

Film is quite thin, I expect sensors are much thicker.

For me, I would love a camera with the build & construction of say a Nikon FM2/FM3, but digital & with added features such as AF/spot metering, but still retain a simple manual exposure system

But as avdave2 said, it will never happen

Err, just turn it all the interference off. No one's making you use it you know. 🙂

You've got the answer to the question in the second post.

Like computers innit. The best time to buy one is always in 6 months time.

There's always something new and expensive 'just around the corner'. You wait and wait and then buy it as soon as you can, just for them to announce something better next week.

You can't win. Just buy the best you can afford, when you can afford it. If you wait six months, that's just six months where you could've had a camera.

Could someone not make a roll of 35mm film with sensor on it? Put the electrics in the 'roll' part? How hard would it be?

It was discussed by a number of people, but reading the problems to overcome at the bottom of this link, I am not surprized one was marketed.

[url= http://www.epi-centre.com/reports/imagek.html ]http://www.epi-centre.com/reports/imagek.html[/url]

I'm another one who just wishes someone would build a digital full frame FM2 or OM1 type camera where all the digital bit does is replace the film and the camera remains essentially manual

That would be the Leica M8 / M9 ?

Leica also came out with the Module R which was touted as they bolt on digital back for their "R" series cameras, as far as I know it never actually hit the shelves with any success?

Having recently acquired a Fuji X100, I am VERY surprised at what is achievable in the smaller form factor with a dedicated lens, and hopefully it will signal where the market is moving.

Could someone not make a roll of 35mm film with sensor on it? Put the electrics in the 'roll' part? How hard would it be?

I remember seeing one of these many years ago - nowt came of it though.
EDIT: Here you go - http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1032460933.html

Having recently acquired a Fuji X100, I am VERY surprised at what is achievable in the smaller form factor with a dedicated lens, and hopefully it will signal where the market is moving

Except that it's a fixed lens, and is very expensive. I can't see how it's any different inside from other full frame cameras to be honest - they are also very expensive.

Having recently acquired a Fuji X100, I am VERY surprised at what is achievable in the smaller form factor with a dedicated lens, and hopefully it will signal where the market is moving.

Something with interchangable lens retailing for a sub £1k would hook a lot of business 😉

But the X100 is as close as it gets for me, nice camera btw

If I win the lottery then no mistakes, a M9 & a tour of the factory would be top of my list 😉

Except that it's a fixed lens, and is very expensive. I can't see how it's any different inside from other full frame cameras to be honest - they are also very expensive.

Not when you compare it to an equivalent Lens, i.e. Canon 35 f1.4, or Summicron F2 at twice the price of the X100?

To me it signals an option to have 2-3 dedicated bodies at various focal lengths. The X100 has become camera of choice for me at least.

I wouldn't want a fixed lens camera. I have 7 lenses now, no way I'd get 7 bodies to go with them!

Elf - stump up and get the nice camera.. I want to welcome you to the modern era 🙂

Plus I want to see your photos...

Well I won't be buying a mid-range DX sensor cam, that's for shore. FX or nowt. I'm just wondering if Nikon will be releasing an FX cam for about a grand or so, soon for the Xmas market.

At the moment, PXing my F5 would get me a s/h D60 or something in a straight swap. Bolluscs to that. I spose I could get a basic dijical cam and zoom kit until the Nikon I want is released, be a doofer.

Oh and my Nikon flashguns are fine with the 'pro' DSLRs. Another thing is, you can't use older AIS lenses on some of the cheaper Nikon bodies, like the D70, as there's no mechanical aperture activation on those cams, they need AF lenses with electronic aperture control. See?

Hence why I want something like a D700.

Ooh look Leica X1 shiny thing makes for nice no bad Elfin stop to look at evil temptation! 😡

[img] [/img]

You could get a doofer that would end up being complimentary to your FX camera. Something small and light for instance like an E-PL1 - they are available for buttons occasionally, or an E-450.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OLYMPUS-E-520-DIGITAL-CAMERA-KITS-/300602192639?pt=UK_CamerasPhoto_DigitalCameras_DigitalCameras_JN&hash=item45fd4972ff#ht_1124wt_1119

i would go ahead and get the D700. When i was in the market for a new DSLR i kept thinking about the next camera and how i should wait. With that attitude i would never have bought anything and more importantly would not have got shooting, which is THE most important thing. The D700 will not be as good in low light as its upgrade (not sure as to how often Nikon upgrade models - Canon are on a three year cycle) but it will still be a very competent camera in low light, so long as you have a useful range of primes and not sticking on f/5.6 and wondering why you are having to compensate with ISO 12000.

Elfinsafety

Save a load £££.....

I am selling a d300 kit in the classifieds.......

I would split the kit if anyone was keen on body only...
[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/nikon-d300-full-setup-including-lensestripodbag ]D300 Kit[/url]

Cheers

Having recently acquired a Fuji X100, I am VERY surprised at what is achievable in the smaller form factor with a dedicated lens, and hopefully it will signal where the market is moving

Except that it's a fixed lens, and is very expensive. I can't see how it's any different inside from other full frame cameras to be honest - they are also very expensive.

Eh? It does have some different qualities which make it good for things like street shooting

-hybrid viewfinder
-very quiet leaf shutter and it's size means you won't draw the kind of attention you will with a DSLR
-the lens maybe fixed but its decent quality f2 which isn't bad
-approx 450g, that's quite light for the punch it packs

The fixed focal length would force you to be creative instead of relying on zooming... more thinking about composition

If you do the type of shooting its intended for then its a good buy surely

For instance, its not made for sports or zooming in on birds of prey ragging it around in the skies

There's nothing to stop you using a Digital SLR with manual focus, exposure, ISO and white balance. Or am I missing something?

Re the full frame sensor and trickling down to mass market. I can't see that happening until the new Pro standard is brought out. Currently the sensor size is the clearest difference between a pro camera and an overenthusiastic hobbyist. Because of this it'll command a higher price.
EOS5d Mk11 here when funds allow...
I'd rather go for a second hand full frame over a new toy camera...

Plus a lot of consumer level people have a lot of consumer level lenses, so anyone upgrading to FX would be limited to people prepared to shell out a whole load of cash because the other lenses would not work.

I'd rather go for a second hand full frame over a new toy camera...

I wouldn't. But then I don't get hung up over image quality 🙂

The fixed focal length would force you to be creative instead of relying on zooming... more thinking about composition

See, I don't get this - surely you'd be thinking LESS about composition because you have fewer alternatives. I got some pictures I really love with my Sigma 30mm at the weekend, but whilst it was on the camera I missed a load of shots where I wasn't able to back up enough. I also had no choice over what was in the background once I'd got the subject where I wanted in the frame.

I took the 30mm f1.4, the kit 14-42mm and my brilliant 8mm fisheye. I was swapping lenses the whole time.

yeah how may people actually need or would even max out the potential of a full frame beast... it might just get left at home

this guy shoots with micro four thirds (owns both panasonic and olympus) and gets better results than a lot of people would using a DSLR

http://www.bobtullis.com/

Low light is the only thing, but I am getting some nice pics with a swivel and bounce flash that look pretty natural I reckon.

Conqueror - Member

yeah how may people actually need or would even max out the potential of a full frame beast... it might just get left at home

this guy shoots with micro four thirds (owns both panasonic and olympus) and gets better results than a lot of people would using a DSLR

http://www.bobtullis.com/

Some amazing work there, nice link Conqueror

Clearly there IS a market for a DM2N. I need something small, beautifully made, metal to partner my nikkor 24mm. And at a price less than the Fuji. This would be the camera to make the nikkorcenti jump to digital. I just wish Nikon could see it.

Don't buy a D700 now, Nikon will release the D4 and the D700's replacement (D800) in the next few months. It was to be Q3, but the earthquake there set them back in schedule. As soon as the new one is announced, 2nd hand prices for D3s and D700 will fall.

I'm waiting for the D4 myself...

Keep an eye on [url= http://nikonrumors.com/2011/09/23/nikon-sweden-executive-no-new-full-frame-cameras-in-october.aspx/ ]Nikon Rumours[/url]

If anyone wants a FF camera, I will be selling my mint Canon 5D soon......

No not really Geoff. I've always said that when dijical matches fillum, then I'll switch

Oh and regarding kit, the vast majority will never use even the mid range bodies and lenses to their full potential.

Don't bother with high end stuff unless you are rich or a pro.

FF is great as is medium format, but unless you are making large prints it isn't all that. The main advantage is being able to compose easier due to the bigger viewfinder. You get used to a crop sensor though 😉

that happened in 2005 with the 5D and 1dsMKII in 2004. get with the program.

Nope film is still king when it comes to pictures with high contrast. Even the most fancy digital backs clip the highlights, where as film softly transitions to white.

Once they crack this film will truly be obsolete.

Can't say I agree Kudos100 high end pro lenses are just amazing - can't go back to kit lenses once you've used them...

Film is quite thin, I expect sensors are much thicker.

the actual light capturing part of the sensor is measured in microns, film is thick in comparison. (this is why the depth of field is slightly different between digital and film as light is focused on one place instead of through layers of film)

Nope film is still king when it comes to pictures with high contrast. Even the most fancy digital backs clip the highlights, where as film softly transitions to white.

Once they crack this film will truly be obsolete.

maybe for amateurs, pixel peepers and measurbators.

why have all the film c-41 and E6 labs closed in london? i know people who spent 20k a year on film and processing 8 years ago, their film bill now is zero.

get with the program

Just a couple of points to someone saying 'git wiv da pogrom' (or something like that I dunno);

One: Did you bother reading the bit about me being a [b]Nikon[/b] user? Did you? Hmm?

Did you?

Two: Can use older [u]manual focus[/u] lenses with a Canon AF body? Can I? Hmm? Well?

And don't bother trying to come back with something witty and clever cos I'll just make a 'W' shape with my fingers, and go 'Whatever, girlfriend', in a camp New York type stylee manner favoured by über-trendy divas what frequent achingly fashionable nightspots. 🙂

So there.

Coming in with yer 'git with a can of Niblets' like Aguirre: Wrath of God, then leaving like a pair of cheap binoculars.

Tsk.

That'd be like riding a geared bike and only using one ratio, only you would know it's a singlespeed.

I was wondering how to reply and thank you don for putting it so well.
it's the whole tactile experience that is so unsatisfactory with digital cameras though to be fair manual focussing of lenses has been rubbish ever since film cameras went autofocus.
I should point out that I'm very pro digital and I think the combination of a fully manual camera combined with immediate images would be by far the best way one could ever learn about taking better pictures. For me I would only go back to film if I had a darkroomm again - unless you do all the processing and printing I see little point.
The Lieca is nice in it's way but what I want to see is something the beginner might buy.

Just a couple of points to someone saying 'git wiv da pogrom' (or something like that I dunno);

laughable coming from an adult who insists on using childlike affectations when describing 'digital' and 'film'

One: Did you bother reading the bit about me being a Nikon user? Did you? Hmm?

Did you?

just use an adapter for your ancient lenses, your flash will not work anyway. or sell the lot and buy a decent digital camera.

The main advantage is being able to compose easier due to the bigger viewfinder

I was gonna say, Elf already posted the reason he wants full frame.. but he already replied 🙂

Plus I don't think he's exactly an amateur as such...

the actual light capturing part of the sensor is measured in microns

Yes but it needs support doesn't it?

Another thing is, you can't use older AIS lenses on some of the cheaper Nikon bodies, like the D70, as there's no mechanical aperture activation on those cams, they need AF lenses with electronic aperture control. See?

As I understand it, they won't meter but you can still use them in Manual (M) mode.

On a D700 they will meter but you only get Manual and Aperture Priority.

See http://www.nikonians.org/nikon/slr-lens.html

(just FYI. Sounds like your set on a big FX body anyway)

just use an adapter for your ancient lenses, your flash will not work anyway

Jeeze do you not bother reading [i]anything[/i]?

Seriously?

You've come on to try to appear all clever and knowledgeable about photography, but you've failed to appreciate that I might, just might, know what I want and need a bit more than you, seeing as how it's my photography I'm talking about, not yours.

The D700 allows the use of older AI MF lenses [b]without any adapter[/b], and with full aperture control by the camera, and my flashguns will still work with dijical bodies (albeit not in full TTL mode). Obviously certain bits of kit would need to be upgraded but that's how it is. I fully expect to have to buy a fully compatible flash at some stage anyway. something like the SB800 or 900.

Oh yeah, and:

[img] [/img]

...Girlfriend. 😉

buy a d700 then.

Easy, you two.

So far as I can see the only limitations to the DX format if you already have a stock of lenses is you won't be able do do super wide angle shots without a a new lens. Some of the DX cameras will work properly with older AF lenses (motor needs to be in the body rather than the lens) and some will only work manually. FX lenses won't bust a DX body, but DX lenses can be bad news on an FX/film camera

So get a cheapish DX body to try out (maybe something mid to upper price but used), keep your F5 for landscapes. If this works then you probably only need a wide DX lens and some tippex to write your new focal lengths on your old lenses.

Two: Can use older manual focus lenses with a Canon AF body? Can I? Hmm? Well?

Certainly can, as well as all your nikon ones, leica, and pretty much anything else you would want to list. In fact I have a lovely Zeiss Planar I used to use regularly on a Canon 5d.

Given the larger lens mount size of the Canons over the nikons ... theres actually wider scope for using niche lenses. Canon bit the bullet of increasing the aperture size when it went to its AF mount, Nikon decided to stick with its existing mount which has become a bit of an achilles heel.

Now ... which programme are we getting with now ???

maybe for amateurs, pixel peepers and measurbators.

why have all the film c-41 and E6 labs closed in london? i know people who spent 20k a year on film and processing 8 years ago, their film bill now is zero.

Not for high end ad and fashion photographers. Clients want proofs yesterday so the vast majority shoot digital, but I know some who shoot both. Especially large format. 5x4 still beats just about every digital back.

The labs have closed because the vast majority are shooting digital due to cost and pressure from clients, but that does not mean digital is 'better' it just has different strengths and weaknesses.

Certainly can

Without an adapter? With full open aperture ttl metering? Aperture control?

No, thought not.

Now ... which programme are we getting with now ???

You tell me, Honey... 😉

Can't say I agree Kudos100 high end pro lenses are just amazing - can't go back to kit lenses once you've used them...

Kit lenses are shit. Tamron and sigma make some decent lenses that are not as expensive as Canon or Nikon. My Tamron 28-75 is sharper than Canons 28-70L and is about half the price.

Yes the build quality is not as good, but the images it produces are wonderful.

My Tamron 28-75 is sharper than Canons 28-70L and is about half the price.

Without an adapter? With full open aperture ttl metering? Aperture control?

Must have missed those requirements in your original post. Mind you given that no pre Ai lenses will work with modern bodies, and the prevalence of Ai and Ai-s that will only work in stop down / sunny 16 or external meeting I don't think its a great cause for celebration personally.

I actually find the canon system much simpler for people to understand, Theres EF lenses, and theres non EF lenses, no need for compatibility charts, or will it / won't it work dilemmas.

My Tamron 28-75 is sharper than Canons 28-70L and is about half the price.

I think I would dispute that.

I've read very good reports about the Tamron, but think this is the exception rather than the rule, nicely summed up by you may get a sharp Tamron, but you should get a sharp canon (or nikon equivalent).

The other factor is build quality, Ive a 24-70 than has been abused in a studio for 4 years, dropped numerous times, cleaned thousands of times with edges of clothing, leant on, sat on ... you name it. But its still going strong (bar a slightly wobbly mount).

At the other end of the spectrum, was recently registering focus calibrations on a 1 series body and was shocked at how poor a Sigma 70-200 2.8 was resolving detail, even stopped down. Was quickly sold on as a result.

but think this is the exception rather than the rule, nicely summed up by you may get a sharp Tamron, but you should get a sharp canon.

I've read very good reports about the Tamron, but think this is the exception rather than the rule, nicely summed up by you may get a sharp Tamron, but you should get a sharp canon (or nikon equivalent).

The other factor is build quality, Ive a 24-70 than has been abused in a studio for 4 years, dropped numerous times, cleaned thousands of times with edges of clothing, leant on, sat on ... you name it. But its still going strong (bar a slightly wobbly mount).

At the other end of the spectrum, was recently registering focus calibrations on a 1 series body and was shocked at how poor a Sigma 70-200 2.8 was resolving detail, even stopped down. Was quickly sold on as a result.

Quality control is not as good, but canons quality control is not that brilliant itself. I have seen soft L lenses and I have seen soft tamrons and sigmas.

Wide open the canon is marginally better, but stopped down the tamron is better. Not much in it.

I love the build of L lenses and the 70-200 is the cats whiskers, but unless you are pro I don't see the point in spending x amount extra to have the coveted 'L' series lenses.

Too many people worry about having the expensive gear, when they have little understanding of composition or light.

Too many people worry about having the expensive gear, when they have little understanding of composition or light.

For me, it's about having reliable, dependable kit you can trust to do a good job. And stuff that works the way you want it to.

Elfin - I've got a Sony DSLR which I bought new for £250 does everything you say there.

Do people buy expensive cameras these days as an attempt at skill compensators? IMO you can either take a good picture or you can't, doesn't matter if its a £10 camera or £5k +

For me, it's about having reliable, dependable kit you can trust to do a good job. And stuff that works the way you want it to.

In that case stick with Nikon. Over on the DWF (Digital Wedding Forum) screeds of shooters have migrated to Nikon over the last decade due to dodgy 'L' glass. Yes, the bodies are great, but the glass is unreliable in terms of focussing issues...

It's quite simple. Forget about everything said on this thread, and ask yourself the original question again and do just that. You seem to know exactly what you want so i'm struggling to find out what it is you are after.

mmh to tell him it's allright?

elfin.buy 30m of bw film,roll it yourself.develop while watching tv sitting on the sofa.sorted.just saved you buying throwaway stuff.

if you NEED it,buy it.whenever something's announced it'll take 6months to get to market anyway.then there won't be any for a year or so.if you don't need it..lots of good deals on used mf.
if you want it.well,get it.can't take pictures with gold.
or just get [url= http://www.fujifilmusa.com/products/professional_photography/film/gf670/index.html ]this[/url]
wa version available too.
with a flatbed scanner.a v750,v700 you've got huge files.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/recommended-cameras.htm#costly

I love the build of L lenses and the 70-200 is the cats whiskers, but unless you are pro I don't see the point in spending x amount extra to have the coveted 'L' series lenses.

Do people buy expensive cameras these days as an attempt at skill compensators?