[Closed] Digi SLRs again - Canon 650D or 60D?

I have a 60d if you have any specific questions on the model. I have no idea what the 650d is like but have had 450, 500, 550 and still have a 600d.

Serious question; why would you/anybody want a touch screen on a DSLR?

Ian

I had a serious look before christmas.
The 650 was touted as being a big breakthrough at the price but didn't seem to be.

For similar money I was shown the Sony Alpha range - there was a thread about it

Basically an evolution of the Minolta range they picked up a few years back. I was impressed enough to look that way. More FPS for sports stuff and the electronic view finder meant for action stuff it would be better.

Picking up good reviews in the same category as the Cannon 650

I'd much rather have the 60D. It has an info screen on top of the camera, I wouldn't want a DSLR without that. I prefer to see the settings without using the main screen or looking through the viewfinder. The screen that pops out would be better for shooting video and protects the screen when folded away too. It is also more solidly built, more like a plastic 7D, meaning it's sealed better from the elements.

Serious question; why would you/anybody want a touch screen on a DSLR?

For what its worth, Ive got the 30D (5 years old) and a good friend of mine has the 10D (8 years old) and they both take fantastic pictures. Dont worry about the future proofing of the 60D, it'll be out of date before you buy it. Worry more about the quality of the lens you buy and you will take great pictures. Go for the 60D if you can afford it.

nikon d5100 looks a good cam at the mo , some good features as well , body only as low as £290 from eblag inc cash back ,a tamron 70-300 mm lenes for £90 makes this a strong contender imo.

Do you need video?

If not the 40D really was the sweet spot of noise and amount of mpx you can squish on a crop sensor..

yup - no one needs a touch screen, that's just a marketing gimmick.

The ergonomics of the camera will be more important than you think - as has already been mentioned, more buttons outside of menus the better. Go for the 60D.

If not the 40D really was the sweet spot of noise and amount of mpx you can squish on a crop sensor..

That's a pretty worrying statement, given the reputation of the 40D for poor noise handing at anything approaching high ISOs

Ask yourself why you want to shoot in high ISO. Is it sports photography (fast action) or nighttime shots ( low light)

Technology moves on but the essence of every digital camera is that you have a limited number of sensors on a ccd of a fixed size. Fast ISO on a digital camera is to do with the processor, not the number of sensors/size of ccd

Newer cameras have faster processors so if you want better tech go for a new camera. Older cameras (the 60 an 40 D) were designed more robustly (weather proofing / stronger cases / better ergonomics) but the technology is now superceded. If you can stretch to a 7D get that - otherwise you'll probably not be able to tell the difference between a 60d photo and a 650d photo. The 60d is more robust - 650 is newer.

Get whatever is cheapest and spend the money on lenses instead imho

Not used either camera so take this with a big pinch of salt, but I've used a 40D and a 550D. If the differences are still the same, basically the xxD gives you less features for the price, but a more solid, professional feeling camera with better ergonomics.

As you've said the 60D is older so more likely to get superseded soon. You can get 7Ds for not too much now from grey import places, which is a proper professional camera. I'm a fan of flip out screens though - good for tripod work low down, and great for video.

I have a 600D and am very, very impressed. I agree that the info screen on the top might be useful, but it doesn't really bother me, mainly because of that flip out screen. As above, great for tripod stuff, odd angles etc.

Fast ISO on a digital camera is to do with the processor, not the number of sensors/size of ccd

It is to do with the pixel size and density, a lot. The processor is just trying to iron out the noise that the sensor generates.

Found these reviews on back to back tests

[url= http://www.digitalrev.com/article/canon-60d-vs-650d-which/MzM0NjQxMDY_A ]Canon 60 v 650[/url]

[url= http://snapsort.com/compare/Canon-EOS-650D-vs-Canon_EOS_60D ]Canon 60 v 650 [/url]

Personally a bright view finder is a great help

Point taken - my explanation wasnt the most accurate

Trying to compare a 40d and 650d in terms of how they handle high ISO isn't really fair though

The sensitivity of the ccd may have changed slightly over the years (less so than the number of pixels on the ccd) but it's the ability to handle the overexposure at a pixel level that relies on better software / processors

Anywho - my point is still buy the cheapest camera that takes good shots and spend the difference on better lenses

Discounting some of the utter codswallop on this thread with regard to pixel density and build quality all the cameras mentioned are more than adequate

40D was ok, I had two, but are very dated now and many suffered from shutter button problems,60D is halfway house between xxxD range and 7D

Has extra features such as top LCD, rear control wheel and more direct control buttons plus pentaprism instead of mirror, but has polycarbonate body not the magnesium one of the 7D

In your position assuming you already have Canon lenses I would probably go for the 60D. If make isn't important have a look at the Pentax K-30, top camera for the money

I have no experience of the cameras mentioned, so you can take my comments with a pinch of salt, but in my experience of older models the main differences between the XXXd series and XXd series are robustness, size, and the layout of controls.

It's a shame that newer XXd models done away with the magnesium bodies, but the layout of controls wins it for me and I'd genuinelly find it difficult to go back to the XXXd series. The control wheel and seperated autofocus were a revelation to me. The top mounted controls and screen too. Much more satisfying to use. That's a personal thing of course, but the XXd series definitely has the more seasoned photographer in mind in terms of controls. It's very efficient.

On a technical level, I suspect there's very little in it. And 6 months down the line there'll be something newer again.

Anywho - my point is still buy the cheapest camera that takes good shots and spend the difference on better lenses

Exactly, it's what I did.

Although I went for more lenses rather than better lenses, but that's just what I wanted to do 🙂

Actually I'll qualify that - identify some practical features you particularly want. By practical I mean not some slight improvement in shadow noise but stuff like flip-out screen (which is massively useful) or I dunno.. high fps or something.

mrs toppers has a 60d and loves it. we compare it with the 650 and the 7d and decided that we couldnt justify the cost difference to the 7d (which was a great camera btw) but she preferred the layout of controls and menus on the 60d. it feels a bit more substantial too which always seems strangely reassuring.

Discounting some of the utter codswallop on this thread with regard to pixel density...

Here's what the inventor of the CMOS, Eric Fossum has to say:

Generally, image quality improves with pixel count, assuming ideal sensor technology. There is only a sweet spot according to a specific technology. The sweet spot is constantly migrating to higher pixel counts. And I am pretty sure that in our life time, there will be gigapixel sensors.

Fill factor is indeed improving and BSI was a big step for improving FF and reducing crosstalk. You can expect pixel sizes less than a micron within 5 years in consumer products and digital biinning of sub-micron pixels to a larger pixel and lower pixel count will give better SNR for the same optics than the equivalent single RGBG kernel size from say 5 or 10 years ago.

All this whining about the megapixel race is a waste of your time and breath. This race results in a rising technology tide that floats all boats, from VGA laptop sensors to DSLRs and astronomical applications. Don't worry, be happy.

And the supplier of industrial test equipment and software used by the manufacturers (DXO) say this:

[url= http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Publications/DxOMark-Insights/More-pixels-offset-noise! ]Contrary to conventional wisdom, higher resolution actually compensates for noise[/url]

Ive been reading the rumour mills and it looks like the 60D will be replaced by the 70D by March.

http://www.canonwatch.com/rumor-canons-2013-roadmap-lenses-new-rebel-eos-70d-high-res-dslr/

As this would be for my birthday in Mid february, I am gonna wait and see what happens. The 70D sounds tasty, although it will probably be silly expensive when it is released?

EDIT:

http://www.canonwatch.com/rumor-new-eos-70d-and-3d-tidbits-from-japan/

Canon EOS 70D
Compact Body with better AF and continuous shooting than EOS 7D
22MP and DIGIC5+
19-point AF
6 FPS
Vari-angle display
Magnesium body
Photo/Video live view modes
AFMA

I didn't see this mentioned, but may have missed it. The single biggest difference for me between the 650D and the 60D is the [b]viewfinder[/b].
Bigger and brighter on the 60D (even more on the 7D). Makes all the difference imo.

Other differences that would also sway me to the 60D - Top screen, easier navigation, feels better in the hand (650D feels ok with a grip added, if you like those).

.

Interesting about the 70D (although there hasn't been any solid info at all). I'm hoping to buy a 60D when the price falls to £400 on import (currently £475).

I agree that the 40D is still a great camera. There is definitely more to cameras than megapixels. Wouldn't swap my 40D for a 650D after having tried a 600D for a day.

I think you need to go into a shop and try both cameras. The image sensor performance of the 60D and 650d are basically the same.

try and work out what you might want to change while out shooting and then try making the changes. For me that would be

how do i set aperture priority
how do i change aperture in that mode, where can i see the apertur, shutter speed and iso
how do i move the Af point
how do i change the iso
how do i apply exposure compensation

personally i wouldn't hold out for the next model. However i might let it supress the price of the current models.

For me the priority would be getting a kit lens with a wider zoom range that the standard 18-55

I had a good look at these 2 and bought a 650D
Why?
Same sensor, same features, same processor (or is the 650 better?) same everything basically. The 60d has some slight detail improvements and an extra display. Big deal. Plus it's bigger and heavier and I prefer smaller and lighter.

The touchscreen isn't a gimmick either. I imagine those that are saying so don't have one..?

I'm laughing at those saying go for the 7D if you can stretch to it...the cheapest you can get one for (with lens) is just a touch under a grand, more than twice the price of any of the cameras mentioned. 🙄
I'd been lending one and was hoping to buy my own due to the quality, mag body and sealing...I ended up buying a Nikon D7000 due to the similar specs but much lower price. Turns out that I like the Nikon more! It has more in-built features plus more buttons which give greater control without having to go into the menus.
For anyone looking at importing...have a look at [url= http://www.portusdigital.com/ ]Portus Digital[/url]. They sell imports but you buy them here in the UK, for similar prices as those from Hong Kong and come with a dealer warranty. I bought my Nikon from them for £619 with lens. 🙂

I started out with a 450D and moved up to a 60D. 60D fantastic and I much prefer the size/feel and the lcd display on the top. As above, go instore and have a hold of each and see what you prefer. Biggest difference for me was quality of lens, the 18-55 that usually comes with kits will do for the short while but highly likely you will need/want better as you progress...

Found this test

[url= http://www.digitalrev.com/article/canon-eos-60d-vs-550d/NjUwOQ_A_A ]Canon 60D v 550D v 7D[/url]

After reading the above i would be buying the 60D The pivot screen so important

Pivot screen is the one non-standard feature I use more than any other.

Found this deal at Currys for the 06D
[url= http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/canon-eos-600d-digital-slr-camera-with-18-55-mm-zoom-lens-free-remote-control-additional-battery-11519881-pdt.html ]Canon 60D package deal at currys[/url]

thats the 600D

After reading the above i would be buying the 60D The pivot screen so important

600 & 650D both have that.

Just had a look on the Canon site

650D has a better processor than the 60D, a higher ISO rating, more shooting mode options, better metering

60D has the extra screen, 0.5mp more resolution, higher battery capacity, higher possible shutter speed 1/8000th agains the 650s 1/4000th (I can't ever remember going over about 1/800th) and a higher flash synch speed of 1/250th against the 650s 1/200th

650D is stainless steel and polycarbonate construction where the 60D is aluminium and polycarbonate
Both have virtually identical (650 - 5, 60 - 5.3) frame per second rates but the 60 has a bigger buffer so can shoot nearly 3 times the 650s 22 shots before the buffer is full. (Who shoots 22 frames in one go? not many people....)

Of all that lot the only thing that would be any use to me would be the higher flash synch of the 60D. Other than the 650 is, in many ways, the better camera......

Obviously different people need different things, but I can't see any point lugging around a camera thats nearly 1/2lb heavier and costs £100 more for a little screen and a couple of other bits and bobs...... 🙂

thats the 600D

And you should be able to get a better price than that.

Also,

http://snapsort.com/compare/Canon-600d-vs-Canon_EOS_60D
http://snapsort.com/compare/Canon-EOS-650D-vs-Canon_EOS_60D

(take with a pinch of salt, but may be helpful)

The pivot screen so important

For what? Seems completely pointless to me - isn't the point of an SLR that you look through the nice bright view finder?

For what? Seems completely pointless to me - isn't the point of an SLR that you look through the nice bright view finder?

For what? Seems completely pointless to me - isn't the point of an SLR that you look through the nice bright view finder?

Not really, for me it's mainly about the image quality. I really like flip out screens - great for when using something like a gorillapod really low down on the floor, or holding the camera way above your head.

You don't get a "nice bright viewfinder" on any apsc dslr,you get a dark tunnel.

My 7D view finder is pretty big.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos7d/5

Grum - surely the image quality is rubbish compared to looking at the actual image?

For what? Seems completely pointless to me - isn't the point of an SLR that you look through the nice bright view finder?

Useful when you can't get at the OVF; for instance, when the camera's up in the air on a monopod, or on the floor doing macro work, maybe.

EDIT - as Grum said. As you were.

Sorry I meant the point of DSLRs is image quality, not the viewfinder.

It's also handy being able to do stuff you can't do with an optical viewfinder, like zoom right in to check focus, or see a live histogram. Some Sonys have focus peaking which is good for manual focus lenses. I think there's a bit of snobbery about flip-out screens for some reason.

Hmm take your point, I never use my camera with live view / video so I guess that's why I don't use it.

Pretty much all DSLRs are great cameras and anything you buy will be out of date in a few months as the rate at which they bring out new models is quite incredible. I'd just pick one you like the feel of and use that, rather than worrying about whether it's the best or not.

From PP's run down of the specs, I would get the 60d, I reckon.

Although saying that, I won't actually be going anywhere near a Canon body with all the Nikon bits I have...

If you go for the 60D you can use Magic Lantern (hacked firmware) which gives you so many extra features that aren't normally available. It's not out for the 650D and doesn't even seem to be on the road map. It's mostly video orientated though so might not be useful to you. I love it though. 🙂

http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_Lantern_Firmware_Wiki

The pivot screen so important
For what? Seems completely pointless to me

If you want to take a macro shot of a flower on the floor say, you don't have to lie on the floor to stick your eye up against the viewfinder.

If you are setting up some product photo you don't have to keep going around the back of the camera to look through the viewfinder, you can have the screen facing the front so you can see what you are doing in it (if it flips out all the way like mine does)

If you are in a crowd you can hold the camera above your head and see what you are taking pics of

You can get a picture of everyone in a room (family christmas etc) by holding it up high in the corner of the room, and you can still frame the shot

If you want to take a photo at arm's length for any reason - say a nice flower that's a little awkward to get to, you can still see the screen to frame the shot

It gives you a lot of possibilities actually.

As much as I would never use the LCD regularly, I do wish I had a foldable one on my 5DII, mainly for the reasons molgrips gives above. Also, I do find the screen very useful for checking the focus in liveview on tripod shots - as good as the viewfinder is in the 5D, it would really benefit from a split-prism

From PP's run down of the specs, I would get the 60d, I reckon.

Really? Why? Honest question. 🙂

@zokes - that's one of the main things I really miss from my old film Nikon - a split prism viewfinder. So, so good.

it would really benefit from a split-prism

Holy cow.. I used to use a manual focus film camera (never used an AF one in fact) and I can't understand why they don't have them in DSLRs. If it gets a bit dark you're basically screwed. Really annoys me.

You can get aftermarket ones that you have to fit yourself into the cam (google focusing screens), but guess what - not for my cam! At least, not from the well known manufacturers. There's a cheap Chinese job that will apparently work and someone online has tried it with good results.

Bit nervous about hacking my camera but I have so much trouble with my Sigma 30mm f1.4 focusing in low light, which is what I bought it for, that I might give it a try.

PeterPoddy - Member
From PP's run down of the specs, I would get the 60d, I reckon.

Really? Why? Honest question.

I find the extra screen on my D80 really useful, which the 60D has.
Bigger buffer (just because)
Shutter Speed (shooting with a 1.8, easily takes you to high shutter speeds in relatively bright light. Nice to have some headroom.
Higher flash sync speed - again nice to have some headroom.

I think on another post as well you mention that the 650d has a touchscreen. I reckon it's completely pointless on a camera, unless you really have made the camera so small that you can't fit any buttons on (or put such a big screen on). The screen gets smeary, you can't change settings by touch (button press & twizzle of command dial while not even looking away from viewfinder), it seems like technology for the sake of it (wrong application of a technology, perhaps) and I've never found it to be an advantage on any camera that I have used it on. The only thing I can think it would be good for is swiping through pics when reviewing them, but this doesn't seem like reason enough to add it.

Also - 2 command dials on the 60D, although not sure about the buttons running along the top in front of the second display; doesn't look very ergonomic.

Grip looks a bit small on the 650D

Oh, swivel screen on the 60D

Apart from that, 😉

On some compacts you can touch the thing you want to focus on and it'll focus on that and track it as it moves too, which is quite nice. Also you can have a bigger screen cos you don't need as much space for buttons.

But on an SLR - not sure. I guess it would be easier to just touch stuff on a busy screen rather than click across all the options, depends on how the UI is organised. Think of it as buttons that can change shape and position depending on what you're doing.