[Closed] Different Steed but Strangely Familiar Arguments

njee20 - Member

I take issue with your opinion that riding a horse is akin to drink driving.

That's why I gave the alcohol free example of driving a car that could brake, accelerate or change direction without the driver being able to stop it.

That's why I gave the alcohol free example of driving a car that could brake, accelerate or change direction without the driver being able to stop it.

And that will be a perfectly reasonable metaphor when horses are killing or seriously injuring thousands of third-parties on the roads every year.

But as far as I know they're not.

Roads are not just for cars. We all have to play nice and share.

That's why I gave the alcohol free example of driving a car that could brake, accelerate or change direction without the driver being able to stop it.

You must have missed this then:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9311_Toyota_vehicle_recalls

molgrips - Member

Roads are there for ALL road users.

Absolutely categorically and very importantly DEAD WRONG. 😉

Not all roads are there for all road users, as you are well aware.

I admire your ideological stance, but as I tried to point out earlier in reply to Cougar, the reality is that plenty of modern roads are not designed with any consideration for bestial transport whatsoever.

The right or wrong of this is irrelevant, it [i]is[/i] the reality.

Not all roads are there for all road users, as you are well aware.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division

plenty of modern roads are not designed with any consideration for bestial transport whatsoever.

Plenty of modern roads are designed with no regard to cyclists either. It doesn't mean that cyclists shouldn't use the roads.

Horses should only be on the road when working.

GrahamS - Member

And that will be a perfectly reasonable metaphor when horses are killing or seriously injuring thousands of third-parties on the roads every year.

But as far as I know they're not.

Only because they are so lacking in number.
A quick google suggests that per hour of activity, horse riding is far more dangerous than say motorcycling, if only to the rider involved.

why is "per hour" the bodging factor to compare totally different stats?

A quick google suggests that per hour of activity, horse riding is far more dangerous than say motorcycling, if only to the rider involved.

Hang on, what do you think "third party" means?

GrahamS - Member

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division

You're the one joining the dots on what I have said, it was not my fallacy.

Plenty of modern roads are designed with no regard to cyclists either. It doesn't mean that cyclists shouldn't use the roads.

Shouldn't use which roads?
You'll be guilty of the fallacy you accuse me of if you're not careful.

Feel free to exercise your right to cycle down the A14 if you wish, I won't be joining you.
I'll be on the winding back road, or better still the car (and horse) free bridleway. 😀

Horses should only be on the road when working.

Same argument for bikes?

[img] [/img]

andytherocketeer - Member

why is "per hour" the bodging factor to compare totally different stats?

What would you use, per mile? 💡

neither.
they are different stats, by participants in different, incomparable modes of transportation.

beds are dangerous. more people probably die in one of them than on a bike, in a car, or straddling a horse. probably both outright, and "per hour".

You're the one joining the dots on what I have said, it was not my fallacy.

Really? Because your argument so far seems to be "[i]All[/i] roads are exclusively for wheeled transport because [i]some[/i] roads are not suitable for horses"

As I said, you can make the same arguments for bikes, as indeed you just have, but it doesn't mean it is true.

Some roads are not suitable for cars either.

[img] [/img]

Same argument for bikes?

Of course not. Stop doing that.

lemonysam - Member

Hang on, what do you think "third party" means?

I know exactly what third party means, hence the caveat at the end of my post after quite literally an I'm feeling lucky google search.

My concern is always for the safety of all road users, if yours excludes any particular group for whatever reasons then so be it. It will not change my behaviour on the roads.

Of course not. Stop doing that.

Why? That was pretty much the thrust of my original post, that horse riders are being given the same tired old nonsense that cyclists using the road are bored of hearing.

andytherocketeer - Member

neither.
they are different stats, by participants in different, incomparable modes of transportation.

Why do you believe they are incomparable?

My concern is always for the safety of all road users

If that really is the case then you should be fully supporting motorised vehicle drivers acting safely around others, [b]not[/b] suggesting that the others get off the (some) roads, as then they are no longer 'road users'.

Why? That was pretty much the thrust of my original post, that horse riders are being given the same tired old nonsense that cyclists using the road are bored of hearing.

The conversation has moved on.

Stop living in the past.

That was pretty much the thrust of my original post, that horse riders are being given the same tired old nonsense that cyclists using the road are bored of hearing.

I've never seen an Audi throw its driver onto the bonnet of another car before bolting across fields/through fences finally concussing itself on a garage door.

[img] [/img]

My concern is always for the safety of all road users, if yours excludes any particular group for whatever reasons then so be it. It will not change my behaviour on the roads.

I suspect your [i]"horse riding is far more dangerous than say motorcycling"[/i] is comparing ALL horse riding (including racing, show jumping, steeplechase etc) to normal motorcycle use on the road.

The RRCGB doesn't offer the [i]Risk-Per-Distance[/i] stats for horse riders on the road, but RAS20003 does say there were just 2 fatal accidents and 30 serious in 2013.

(Meanwhile Mobility Scooters caused 5 fatalities and 26 serious accidents 😯 )

GrahamS - Member

Really? Because your argument so far seems to be "All roads are exclusively for wheeled transport because some roads are not suitable for horses

Not at all Graham, I haven't said that.
I have made the observation that a lot of modern roads are built without the consideration of certain road users.

I'm not sure why you would take umbrage with that.

I've also argued that horses shouldn't be on the roads because their riders aren't in full control of them, and likened horse riding to drink driving or driving a poorly made Toyota.

Now [i]that[/i], I could understand you taking umbrage with, though it remains my opinion. 🙂

Remember what life was like before the internet?
It was pretty much the same, but morons with moronic opinions couldn't spout them all over the place. Maybe down the pub when they could be shouted down by people with brains.
Things were better then Graham... you should pretend it's still like that and stop reading Facebook.

Why do you believe they are incomparable?

and since the total number of car journeys, car hours on the road or car miles is a massively higher figure than horse journeys, horse hours or horse miles on roads, then a handful of extra deaths of the latter could be a measurable higher percentage, but for the former wouldn't even be noticeable as statistical noise.

[b]bails[/b] - my congratulations for finding that pic! Epic!

amedias - Member

If that really is the case then you should be fully supporting motorised vehicle drivers acting safely around others, not suggesting that the others get off the (some) roads, as then they are no longer 'road users'.

I've already stated that I drive carefully and considerately around horses, even if I don't think it is a good idea for them to share the roads with other vehicle types.
You won't find me advocating anything other than safe considerate road use.

GrahamS - Member

I suspect your "horse riding is far more dangerous than say motorcycling" is comparing ALL horse riding (including racing, show jumping, steeplechase etc) to normal motorcycle use on the road.

Oh, I do absolutely concede that it was a first hit google and don't have the detailed stats to hand.

andytherocketeer - Member

if you have to apply an arbitrary means of modifying a statistic to attempt to match it to another one, then they don't compare.

We'll have to disagree on this one, and I do know maths. 🙂

The stat isn't being modified, it's being given meaning.

I find it really odd when you see the comparison of motorists in the vicinity of horses and cyclists:

With horses, most of them slow down to an absolute crawl, sit well back, are willing to wait for ages for a safe spot to overtake, crawl past when finally safe to do so, often giving the horse riders a cheery wave - even if the horse is going in the opposite direction they will slow down to a crawl and wave.

With cyclists.....erm.....the opposite.

I've even had situations where a driver has squeezed past me while I'm on the bike, overtaking while there's oncoming traffic and generally making a pigs ear out of the whole thing in a bid to get past as fast as possible.
Then, they realise a short distance up ahead there is a horse and they do the whole slowing, patiently waiting, waving thing and all signs of dangerous urgency have completely vanished.

I think a lot of it is because they know that horses are a bit more unpredictable and can do a lot more damage to their car than an irate cyclist ever could.

The Highway Code covers it, but knowledge of that doesn't seem to be required these days sadly.

You've got that the wrong way round.

These days you need way more knowledge of the Highway Code to even be allowed to take your test, than most of us needed to have to pass it.

Theory test needs to passed before you can even get behind the wheel to take your driving test.

I took mine in 1989 and answered 3 questions as an afterthought when we got back to the test centre.

wouldn't necessarily even say that.

psychology plays in to it too. on a bike i'll even admit I've been on the road above the speed limit (according to my VDO computery thing), and the car driver mentality is "cyclist, I need to get past". Well, if I'm at or over the limit, then he must surely have to exceed the limit by more, and more often than not, will do exactly that.

when it's a horse, most IME will think "oh, horse, don't want to scare it".

but then where I come from, most of the roads probably used to be bridle ways that got tarmacced in the last century or so, and horses are common, indeed at least 3 farm stables within the first 200m of leaving the village.

I admire your ideological stance, but as I tried to point out earlier in reply to Cougar, the reality is that plenty of modern roads are not designed with any consideration for bestial transport whatsoever.

So what? All the more reason to take extra care then isn't it?

I've also argued that horses shouldn't be on the roads because their riders aren't in full control of them

Some might not be, but I think many are. A rider who ISN'T in full control of his or her horse shouldn't be on the road (and I've met a few of those) but the same could be said of any vehicle. Bikes and cars will move themselves even less intelligently than a horse under the influence of gravity or momentum.

Oh and bails - [i]very[/i] well played!

You've got that the wrong way round.

Yeah I should probably have skipped the "these days" clause.
The Theory Test certainly improved things a fair bit over the "three random questions" nonsense.

But that's the last contact that many drivers will have with the Highway Code.
Periodic retests would help.

molgrips - Member

So what?

If you were not interested in my reply to Cougar, you need not have jumped into the conversation.

All the more reason to take extra care then isn't it?

And I have repeatedly stated that I do. 🙂

Some might not be, but I think many are. A rider who ISN'T in full control of his or her horse shouldn't be on the road (and I've met a few of those) but the same could be said of any vehicle.

Precisely my argument.

Bikes and cars will move themselves even less intelligently than a horse under the influence of gravity or momentum.

Not sure what your argument is here, my car is outside and I can guarantee that it will not move due to gravity, momentum or anything else.
Can't say the same for your (theoretical?) horse.

Oh and bails - very well played!

Yes, three cheers for the funny pitcher!
I have a suitable riposte but on the grounds of good taste I will refrain from posting it.

Good call with the Audi photo!

I was about to post this: http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Biker-48-remains-stable-condition-Cumberland/story-26216245-detail/story.html

Couple of weeks ago, motorcyclist seriously injured (CPR at the scene) when a pickup crossed a central reservation into another one. Biker was a innocent victim and ended up under one of the cars.

We did have a local girl who would ride her horse very badly on a very tight and twisty lane down the road that used by school runners and commuters (ie generally rushing and often with driving that leaves a lot to be desired). By dangerous I mean on the wrong side of the road and a horse that would dart across the road and be generally spooked by anything, let alone a cars that were trying to pass very slowly giving it plenty of room on the widest section. Not seen her for a while, I wonder if it ended up down the abattoir.

Had a run in the other week with an elderly lady on a steep and narrow road. We were pulling the trailer full of sheep and I spotted them will in advance. They pulled into a passing place as we were going up hill and no passing places on our side between us and them so i drove at the absolute slowest possible speed I could and was driving an automatic. The car coming down behind the horses managed to reverse back up the hill out of the way about twice as fast we were coming up it.

But still one of the old women started shouting at me for travelling too fast!

I was very tempted to lean on the horn. I settled for telling her I thought she was a stupid b**** instead.

Nothing against horses, I help disabled kids learn to ride and I probably go slightly OTT with regards to slowing down and giving room for horses (if that is possible). It's just the same old story of some people are dicks and some of those drive cars, ride bikes, ride horses etc etc.

Yes, three cheers for the funny pitcher!
I have a suitable riposte but on the grounds of good taste I will refrain from posting it.

Hang on, you're getting all arsey about a bit of humour on the thread? You need to simmer down I think.

my car is outside and I can guarantee that it will not move due to gravity, momentum or anything else.

Yeah not sure where you're going with that. Stationary cars don't count, we're talking about when cars and horses are driving around.

Bottom line is - it may be dangerous to ride horses on roads, but that's not the horse riders' fault, it's bad drivers' fault. So to stop horses from riding would be immoral.

Just to make it clear - is your argument that horses shoudl not be allowed on roads?

A animal loving FB friend today posted about a girls horse that she was out riding, stopped to adjust the saddle and it 'bolted'

It then trotted off up the grass verge and was clipped by a car.

I commented along the lines of it not being under control. All the horsey types tried to say that it only bolted because it was scared, nowhere in the shitely written article did it say the horse was scared by a car, just that it bolted, maybe she nipped it doing up the saddle who knows.

It was of course the car drivers fault that a bolting horse was clipped by it and couldn't have been the horses fault or the riders.

I don't mind horses, in pies, or fields. Actually I hate them, but that is having dated someone who loved horses.

^ girl should have tied the horse up to something before messing with the saddle.

Unfortunate accident/incident that could have been avoided. But not one I'm going to lose any sleep over it as there are far more every day involving just cars and people don't say ban cars or people driving cars from the road.

Horse riders can do what they want but I do take objection to some of the entitled ahem people round my way who complain about my bike lights scaring their precious horses, despite the fact that I've reduced my speed to a complete crawl as serenely trundle past.

I don't want to scare an'orse and I dont want to be on the receiving end of one's ire but if they're that easily spooked they really shoudln't be allowed to play out.

As for the original post, I'm surprised so many 'motorists' are whinging as my experience is more as has been pointed out already - much more tolerance for horses than bikes.

Cars make people go nuts for some unfathomable reason. Don't think that will ever change.

answered 3 questions as an afterthought when we got back to the test centre

I've already stated that I drive carefully and considerately around horses

I never suggested that [b]you [/b]don't. I just would like other people to do the same!

You won't find me advocating anything other than safe considerate road use

you're right, I think I've actually confused one of your posts with someone else, and I apologise for that.

I was trying to address the notion that horses shouldn't be on the road, something which I can see you have not actually said, although I got the feeling from some of your posts that you were implying that, but that could be as much my bias in reading as anything so I'll just say sorry and leave it there. 🙂

different [b]thread [/b] but strangely familiar arguments

Is there a STRAVA for horses?

😆

A animal loving FB friend today posted about a girls horse that she was out riding, stopped to adjust the saddle and it 'bolted'

Yep. That was the original article:

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/newcastle-riders-anguish-beloved-horse-9036780

That spurred this more general follow-up article about the British Horse Society asking drivers to pass horses slowly:

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/five-north-east-horses-killed-9035477