[Closed] Diesel air pollution...

There'd be a riot!

I still don't understand why there is a button to disable the stop/start system. Isn't that just a little bizarre? Under what circumstances would anyone disable stop/start, other than fear of change????

Rachel

But the successive governments have encourage diesel car usage via taxation, unless it's part of a non Euro 6 scrapage scheme it will penalise those who can't afford to change cars.

Taxes would go up as there's an extra 40000 people per year to use schools, doctors, roads, police, fire, rubbish collections .........

A quick fix would be to give six month's warning and ban non-Euro 6 cars from city centres during the day. Is it really going to cause that much of a headache?

it will if you get stabbed, burgled or your house catches fire. Or even if you're just hoping for a parcel to be delivered.

Because sapiens have never made rational decisions to protect their long term survival / happiness as a species.

If you're going to ban all non-Euro6 vehicles, you may as well just ban all vehicles (except perhaps leccy vehicles).

Disabling stop/start prevents excessive wear to the engine. Makes a lot of sense when you come to lights and know from the seq

A quick fix would be to give six month's warning and ban non-Euro 6 cars from city centres during the day. Is it really going to cause that much of a headache?

Well personally it would cause a problem as I'd have to sell the car I use for work. It mostly gets used on motorways but I sometimes end up in city or town centres even though I try to avoid it.

So basically I'd need a new one. As would a hell of a lot of people. Second hand petrol cars would go through the roof, and people's diesels would be worth naff all. So a lot of people would need to find a good chunk of money quite quickly.

Then all the other business travellers who are leasing cars - they'd need new ones, which would cause a hell of a headache for all the leasers who would need to find a crapload of new cars from somewhere.

Disabling stop/start prevents excessive wear to the engine. Makes a lot of sense when you come to lights and know from the seq

I bet it's insignificant.

Disabling stop/start prevents excessive wear to the engine

Got any figures for that? I suspect the car manufacturers have thought of this already.

my new diesel car has AdBlue - I think it makes a real difference to the emissions, at least the blurb suggests it does.

A quick fix would be to give six month's warning and ban non-Euro 6 cars

Given that Euro 6 diesels are 2-3 times worse than they are supposed to be, I suggest we get rid of those too.

Maybe I should change the Passat for a petrol one before this kicks in. A quick search seems to suggest that the 2.0 non turbo is cheap but dreadful on mpg; the 3.2 V6 is only slightly worse and there are quite a few around 🙂

Issue is it's a classic situation where whatever we do, it ends up being more expensive for those who are poorer.

Imagine living paycheck to paycheck on £18k a year or whatever, if your car breaks down you're already off to the payday lenders. And now some dudes in Westminster who earn 6 times your salary are telling you you need to buy a new car.

I don't know what the answer is, and I'd love to see diesel off our roads yesterday, but I know just banning them outright isn't going to work.

Under what circumstances would anyone disable stop/start, other than fear of change????

Ours is permanently disabled on the works car.
It's an ambulance response car though which may have something to do with it 😆

Perhaps if we thought about how many unnecessary journeys we make round town, we could possibly reduce these.
Smaller, lighter, more aerodynamic cars would help with fuel efficiency.
If we paid attention to how we drove (ie: no flying away from traffic lights when there's another set in 200 yards)
That would save fuel.
And choose cars that will last a long time, it takes a lot of energy to make a new car.
Being really green, however, wouldn't be very good for the government, imagine how much tax they would lose if everyone bought a new car with the intention of keeping it going as long as possible.
Btw, im not having a dig at anyone.

Ours is permanently disabled on the works car.
It's an ambulance response car though which may have something to do with it

Why ?

Ours is permanently disabled on the works car.
It's an ambulance response car though which may have something to do with it

Funny that mine isn't disabled.

Doesn't stop/start disable itself in cold temperature?

It can do if the battery is low.

Or maybe, and stay with me, because this is pretty radical, rather than making slight changes to the cars we use, we could use the cars less?

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Crazy idea. Nah, we'll just wait for everybody to buy electric cars, that'll solve all our problems (except the danger from motor vehicles that stops people from walking and cycling, the air pollution caused by damaging the road surface, brake pads and tyres, the congestion, the parking problems, the obesity/inactivity crisis)

the 3.2 V6

What ever happened to running diesel cars on cooking oil? Why can't we do that?

1) Enough people did it to push up prices of veg oil to the same as diesel
2) Used oil is now snapped up by industrial bio producers who refine it to put it in pump diesel (5%). Chippies used to have to pay to dispose of it, now they get paid for it.
3) It still produces the nasty NOx.

Wasn't there something in the papers the other day about high pressure petrol turbo engines (ecoboost etc) being really bad for NOx too. A big lazy V6 might not be that bad an idea.

Keep talking.... 😉

It still produces the nasty NOx.

Ah fair enough then.

[quote="Murray"]Disabling stop/start prevents excessive wear to the engine. Makes a lot of sense when you come to lights and know from the seq 🙄

The starter motor is sized/specified to the number of times it's going to be used. So those in stop/start cars are upgraded. Better bearings/bushings, more torque, better electrics. Or any combination of the above. Many of the current and next gen ones are permanently engaged, so no pesky pinion to wear out either, the very early versions *sometimes* used stock starter motors.
Engines only suffer measurable wear during cold starts, or buy being stopped and then started when extremely hot, exactly when stop/start doesn't actually happen. They have target temperatures (oil/coolant/ambient/exhaust depending what the car is actually measuring)

The buttons are there because customers think they know best.
They'll be deleted pretty much globally within the next couple of years. Already gone in Japan and a couple of other markets.

[quote="notmyrealname"]Ours is permanently disabled on the works car.More likely that someones mucked up something on the electrics.

I don't think so. The response cars are like that as are the newer ambulances that have it fitted.

I'm guessing that it's been disabled due to power management issues with the auxiliary batteries etc.

Contrary to popular belief, car designers aren't total idiots. As evidenced by the fact cars are more reliable than they were 30 years ago.

I'm starting to get really affected by car emissions on my walk to work. I don't think older cars are the problem particularly, and I certainly don't trust modern ones (have we forgotten those conniving Germans, VW already?).

I certainly don't trust modern ones

You don't need to trust them, you need proper figures. I think these are being compiled as we speak.

Well personally it would cause a problem as I'd have to sell the car I use for work. It mostly gets used on motorways but I sometimes end up in city or town centres even though I try to avoid it.

Park and ride?

Well like I say, I try and avoid it. Most big cities I take the train/bike. But I'm contractually obliged to have a car (or I lose £280/mo take home) and if they tell me to go somewhere at a particular time I have to go, and that may mean the car. Or if they tell me to go somewhere where the train takes much longer.

Keep talking....

BRITAIN’S most popular cars, the Ford Fiesta and Focus, have a dirty secret — the pollution emissions on some models are four times higher than shown in the laboratory-based tests under which they were approved for road use.

The Sunday Times has obtained data from on-the-road tests on three new Fords, all powered by the car maker’s prize-winning 1-litre EcoBoost petrol engine, showing they averaged 0.24 grams of nitrogen oxides (NOx) per kilometre.

This is four times the 0.06 grams maximum allowed in the European emission standards test

Apparently the 3.2 V6 gives about 24mg/km: http://www.nextgreencar.com/view-car/18745/vw-touareg-3.2-v6-240ps--petrol-automatic-6-speed/

0.24g = 240mg, so is that a tenth of the NOx from the V6?!

You mean VW were not the only ones?

In other news. Bears do shit in the woods.

The buttons are there because customers think they know best.

Surely they make it easy for the MOT tester to keep the engine running. Far easier than, say, hooking up a computer/test rig to the car ECU and doing the job that way.

Everyone's really into the cost of replacing diesel cars for the people who choose to drive them, but my lungs are irreplaceable and I don't get to not breathe.

Scrappage schemes are a fine way of making their victims pay for polluters' life choices.

Everyone's really into the cost of replacing diesel cars for the people who choose to drive them, but my lungs are irreplaceable and I don't get to not breathe.

I'd love a new car. Buy me one?

Its not exactly a 'cars cause pollution and death' shocker though is it?

Lots of yoghurt knitting hippies have been going on about it for ages so if there are some losers its not like they weren't told and they should take it up with the manufacturers. TBH I'm surprised there arent more people suing councils for failing to keep the air clean.

That said, sweeping actions are not the British way and given Landrovers profile as the Jewels in the UK manufacturing crown we are unlikely to do anything drastic.

Nudgenomics reducing the dominance of cars and making other options more attractive would be my suggestion.

Surely they make it easy for the MOT tester to keep the engine running. Far easier than, say, hooking up a computer/test rig to the car ECU and doing the job that way.

Start stop won't stop the engine with a door open, so problem solved.

I can quite believe that micro particle pollution from Diesel engines is a health concern in the centre of big cities.

I'm somewhat less convinced that it is an issue for the nation as a whole though

Start stop won't stop the engine with a door open, so problem solved.

Ah, I didn't know that. In which case, ban 'em...!

🙂

Start stop won't stop the engine with a door open, so problem solved.

I can quite believe that micro particle pollution from Diesel engines is a health concern in the centre of big cities.

I'm somewhat less convinced that it is an issue for the nation as a whole though

This, and if you take a holistic view of UK emissions as a percentage of the world total as a measure to reduce pollution it's not going to achieve much. Reducing emissions is putting a sticking plaster on the problem because there are more vehicles on the road. People have to make fewer journeys by car and use an alternative.

What about those who remove/blank the DPF and EGR valves on diesel engines? - how will we deal with those idiots?, on one of the VW forums i'm a member of, there is often a thread regarding the removal of the DPF as they're often problematic and bloody expensive to replace, similar with the EGR valve and Catalytic convertor's - i did once post up a reply stating the bloody obvious regarding the increasing number of deaths due to particulates but was pretty much hounded off the forum.

FWIW i recently bought a VW Caddy 1.6tdi, i only use it for journeys of 10miles or more and seeing as i stay in rural galloway on the coastline i have never experienced pollution, a few weeks ago i did have to go to glasgow for a hospital appointment and on walking round the centre of town i could feel the air catching on my throat and my snot was black after a few hours...bloody horrible and damn unfortunate for those poor sods who live in a city/built up area.

I can quite believe that micro particle pollution from Diesel engines is a health concern in the centre of big cities.

I'm somewhat less convinced that it is an issue for the nation as a whole though

I know you have a reputation for stupidity to uphold but do you really think cities are the only place with busy roads?

Got any figures for that? I suspect the car manufacturers have thought of this already.

Re stop/start - I bet they have worked out how juch extra £££ they will make from replacement batteries amd starter motors.

I ALWAYS trun it off on rented cars, I once refused to take a Fiat 500 as guy said the stop/start had to be turned off each time you drove the car. The stop/start doesn't kick in if you keep your foot on the clutch

My parents had a Polo from the 1980's with the system (SSA it was called), hated it from then. It had a switch to turn it off.

....

Anyway onto OPs post, banning diesels from Cities is coming. In Paris now we have a small sticker denoting "pollution bands" no doubt next time there is a problem diesels will be banned. Currently they just ban cars by registration odd/even on alternative days.

You can't double the price of diesel or do GPS logging as thats a massive tax on people who live in the countryside and probably earn less. Personally I would add 10-20% extra tax on new diesel cars and redice tax on Hybrids.

I bet they have worked out how juch extra £££ they will make from replacement batteries amd starter motors.

I bet they haven't since hardly anyone buys a battery from the manufacturer.

The reason they've done this is because of the EU wide 120g/km CO2 average limit initiative. That's right, the EU looking after the environment. What an awful institution.

Cheaper and easier to ban planes.

molgrips - Member
I bet they haven't since hardly anyone buys a battery from the manufacturer.

Exactly Molly, last 3 cars have had stop/start tech and it just works fine.
TBH I like the silence in the car apart from the music I want to listen to if I'm stuck in traffic.

I would much prefer to be on my bike but that isn't always possible.

And ban shipping, most run on diesel and belch thier way around the world.

I ALWAYS trun it off on rented cars

Why ? ❓

I definitely think Diesel emissions are getting worse. On the school run, the unmistakable smell walking along the pavement from the surrounding roads on a cold, still day really is pretty terrible. I hate it, and both my sons comment on it too when it's bad. Not helped by the ****tards who sit for ten minutes with their engines running (a different thread, I'm sure)...

As much as I really hate diesel, I still find myself thinking my next car might be one though. I do about 12k miles per year: 6k on a school run/commute and 6k up and down the M1 Newcastle-Surrey. Currently in a petrol, but get about 30mpg on the motorway, and can't help but think the diesel equivalent would be at 50mpg-ish. Maybe something like a 330e would be a good compromise...

I ALWAYS trun it off on rented cars, I once refused to take a Fiat 500 as guy said the stop/start had to be turned off each time you drove the car.

😕

Why +1, it's not even your car so even the tenuous wear argument doesn't hold.
Surely as a cyclist you know how abhorrent it is to filter down a line of stinking diesels?
I've actually recently noticed quite how much difference it makes to breathe the clear air when I'm stood behind a car with stop start

Just as an aside, the kids in the US love Diesels. Have trawl on Youtube for "Rolling Coal" 😥

[quote=captainsasquatch ]Cheaper and easier to ban planes.

It appears those are already banned from city centres.

[quote=bikebouy ]And ban shipping, most run on diesel and belch thier way around the world.

and those

Currently in a petrol, but get about 30mpg on the motorway, and can't help but think the diesel equivalent would be at 50mpg-ish

What petrol? A modern eco petrol should be able to get 50mpg on the motorway. A petrol hybrid would easily beat that. But if you can afford it, something like a Golf GTE might be better than a BMW, having a smaller petrol engine.

It appears those are already banned from city centres.

My current car is a diesel, i like Diesel engines, they produce good torque which makes them feel quite pokey.
I also hardly ever drive in town, so theoretically at least my engine should be running quite efficiently most of the time.
But having said all that, my next one wont be diesel, it will be an ecoboost type petrol, or a hybrid, and the decision for this is purely what comes out of the exhaust.
If an electric car works and is affordable by then, electric is the way I will go.

[quote=captainsasquatch ]I missed the bit where pollution stays within a few feet of its source. My bad.

In terms of concentrated pollution it does - it's concentrated pollution from lots of vehicles in a small space which is the biggest issue here. I'm not quite sure what happens to pollution from planes and ships in the long term when dispersed in the atmosphere, but I think it's safe to say that neither are a major contributor to pollution at ground level on land (in general, let alone in cities).

Given plenty of comments about the contrast of pollution between cities and countryside, what is it that makes you think pollution from planes is likely to be attracted to cities?

what is it that makes you think pollution from planes is likely to be attracted to cities?

According to the post on the previous page, an ecoboost petrol may not be much better than an SCR diesel in terms of NOx.

[quote=Davesport ]This, and if you take a holistic view of UK emissions as a percentage of the world total as a measure to reduce pollution it's not going to achieve much. Reducing emissions is putting a sticking plaster on the problem because there are more vehicles on the road. People have to make fewer journeys by car and use an alternative.

As always, the question is am I causing more harm with my "older" diesel car which sits on my drive most of the time, I rarely do a trip of less than 3 miles and very rarely spend my time sitting in congestion in a city? Compared to somebody with a wonderful modern car who does lots of short trips in congestion? Decreasing emissions certainly helps, but it doesn't ultimately fix this problem (or any of the other multitude of problems with transport, which could be vastly improved with modal shifts).

[quote=wilburt ]I know you have a reputation for stupidity to uphold but do you really think cities are the only place with busy roads?

To be fair to ninfan, he actually posts sensible comments on most threads (I sometimes wonder if he lends the login to somebody else for political ones). No, cities aren't the only place with busy roads, but it's where by far the vast majority of busy congested roads are found - which are the ones generating most of the pollution problems. Outside of cities, roads might be busy, they might even be congested (though that's much rarer), but they are also separated from other roads and surrounded by open land, so the pollution is dispersed.

BTW regarding stop/start - is this pretty much a standard thing now? I've never had it in any car I've driven, though my car is 9 years old and it's almost that long since I last got brand new hire cars regularly, so I've not driven anything much newer.

[quote=captainsasquatch ]Not really sure where I said that, but go on. I'm sure you won't give up until you've either started an argument or feel that you've somehow won something.

OK then - so how much do you think emissions from planes contribute to pollution in cities?

OK then - so how much do you think emissions from planes contribute to pollution in cities?

Good answer to a question asking "how much" 😆

Though I'll roll with the answer you gave - do you also think planes are contributing to pollution in the countryside?

Good answer to a question asking "how much"

Well stop farting then

I live in west London. I also own a modern Euro 6 diesel.
During the week I cycle to work, and obviously at the weekend 😉
The biggest issue where I live is in the hundreds of tonnes of jet fuel and part burned jet fuel falling out of the sky from the hundreds of planes landing at Heathrow every day. Everything is coated in a layer of oily black grime. And the alternative truths being put out by the promoters of Heathrow expansion are clearly ludicrous based on emissions reductions due to everyone in the vicinity driving electric cars by the time the 3rd runway is brought into service.
I will be driving to Bath tomorrow morning for an 8am meeting, hopefully the car will run efficiently, I've been getting 60mpg+ on long journeys..... And I'll be able to listen to Radio 4, and maybe the farming programme.

aracer - Member

Well stop farting then

Tough one, moral argument.

Cities aside for a second, I think I'll stick to a small Diesel engined 60+mpg car, unless of course you all decide to stop buying salads from Spain, fruit from Israel, coffee from South America and getting all that shipped over here in belching container ships.

I think, that's probably it.

The whataboutery is strong in this thread.

Much easier to do like the UK gov and classify one of the busiest road in the UK as a rural road so it doesnt have to be included in official stats .

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-39152942

The gov have also got an "electric vehicle office", ULEV or OLEV or something.

If you want an electric car/van/motorbike they'll give you a grant for it.

Want an electric bike? "No chance sonny, that's not real transport. *Cough cough* smokey out today isn't it. Anyway, who else wants cash to buy a new car?"

and getting all that shipped over here in belching container ships.

I'm not sure what the nox/particulate levels are like (quite bad per litre of fuel burnt I'd guess), but the fuel economy is the equivalent of 1000mpg per tonne of cargo, so not the most pressing form of air pollution (especially considering people don't tend to live on the sea).

We need to spend some decent money on cycle facilities, combined with stricter emissions regulations in the future - perhaps combined with increased restrictions on the use of cars etc. in cities.

This is NOT just a city problem.

I live 50 miles from the nearest city but there are 6 AQMA's within 10 miles my house and if the councils had any interest in measuring pollution correctly there would twice as many.

Including the nice leafy road that runs past our school which in recent years has turned into a river of poison.

Car pollution is everyones problem.

wilburt - Member

Car pollution is everyone's problem.

Are you new here? I think you'll find it's everyone else's problem. 😉

On bikebuoys whataboutery: usual standard I'm afraid.

Ships are governed by MARPOL and the various annexes. Annex 6 covers air pollution which, given the size of a ship, is actually pretty easy to deal with. For sulphur you just stop burning shite and for nitrogen you do crazy things like (honestly, wait for it) water injection. You know, that thing diesel tuners have been doing for literally years as, aside from the performance benefits from adding methylene, the atomised water cools the cylinder and significantly reduces the production of NOx's. Aside from that ships can install scrubber towers that remove pollutants from the exhaust stack either as a liquid mix or inert gas to be removed. Add in the fact that modern marine engines generally run at a set speed and don't have stupid antiquated things like camshafts to make timing and advance issues a problem then you get a pretty efficient block.

But then they are diesls, so all diesels must be bad.