[Closed] Die-hard petrolhead's first week driving a diesel...

Having only based my experience on two diesels, both of which I stalled a few times pulling away. If diesels have more torque at lower revs, why do they seem to stall easier? Or is it just entirely me being a numpty?

...but you had an audi tt... ...does not compute...

its impossible to stall a diesel! pulling out onto a roundabout once i ended up pulling silly confused faces and worrying i had summink wrong with my car, turns out i pulled off in 4th gear.

I don't feel the need to 'push' other road users along

Do what now?

because they have a DMF, and the DMF will go into resonance a couple of hundred rpm's below tickover and smash itself to bits. The calibration or strategy cuts the fuel to stop this happening if you are a bit ham fisted on launch and let the revs drop too much. Also modern turbo diesels have huge amounts of torque (and therefore a heavy clamp load), so in order to try and retain a sensible pedal travel/load compromise some manufacturers end up with quite a heavy pedal load. The gradient of the load v. travel on the pedal release part of the curve can be very steep, and this makes modulating the clutch quite difficult.

Interesting comparisons.

Of course it depends what petrol and what diesel you were driving before to compare!

Some diesels used to have terrible turbo lag and peaky delivery (Golf 150bhp PD-tdi I had as a company car) whilst some new ones have almost no lag (twin turbos etc... 1400-1600rpm max torque).

We have a diesel (relaxing) and petrol (smooth but needs revs and great sound at 7500rpm). Very different cars but both enjoyable to drive in their own ways.

'impossible to stall a diesel'

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...but you had an audi tt... ...does not compute...

its impossible to stall a diesel!

No doubt I will get used to it.

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Of course it depends what petrol and what diesel you were driving before to compare!

Diesel - Audi A6 2.0TDi 174bhp version

Diesel - Audi A6 2.0TDi 174bhp version

ahhh you want to trade that in for something nice, something decent like a skoda 1.9 sdi.... have i mentioned its impossible to stall?

massive dead spot of power under about 2k revs

It takes a while for the power to come in if under 3k revs

that doesn't sound right for a diesel at all - what is it?

How you fining the A6 MF? (I was looking at the time you bought yours, but ended up with an SMax as I couldnt fit the 3 kids accross the back seats with the youngest in his next size up car seat;-()

ahhh you want to trade that in for something nice, something decent like a skoda 1.9 sdi.... have i mentioned its impossible to stall?

I'm going through a similar thing, went from a 2.5T petrol to 2.2 diesel. So far so good, finding it more relaxing. The economy on the diesel was poor to start with, but it's getting better an better.

Hmm.. shouldn't really be a dead spot... there are a few things going on here:

1) Turbo spool speed. If the engine revs are low enough the turbo won't turn. On my car this is about 1.2krpm. Below about 1.5k it takes a little longer to spool up than it does at high speeds. If you are below the spool speed the turbo isn't turning in a meaningful way so you've got basically a NA diesel (ie a slow one) until you pass this engine speed.

2) Turbo lag, which is not quite the same thing. Under light throttle at middling speeds the turbo's not turning much, but when you boot it it takes a short time for the turbo to speed up as you accelerate - this is what's much reduced in modern turbo cars compared to the 80s (both petrol and diesel).

So when driving, you need to be aware of the turbo, what it's doing and how to get it to work for you. I must say that your reports of low power below 2krpm seem very strange, that's not the case with cars I've driven at all. You may be experiencing some form of lag which is going away in the time it takes to get to 2krpm.

If you don't want to stall when pulling away quickly, get the revs up above about 1.3 or 1.4, you should be fine.

+1 for relaxing driving though. It's possible to enjoy a drive through being relaxed and happy, rather than going fast. For this reason I like driving diesels and also big V8s but they are hardly practical 🙂

Modern diesels are fantastic, I would nearly always have one over a petrol. Actually even when I want something a bit fast; I've not put a deposit on a new M5 as I'm eagerly awaiting more news on this triple turbo V8 diesel BMW are supposed to be doing.

[quote=TurnerGuy]that doesn't sound right for a diesel at all

Agreed, my PD140 Leon used to pull strongly from 1000rpm steadily to about 3500rpm. Granted it's a lot lighter car, but I would still expect similar characteristics...

His engine is quite different from a PD though frogstomp.

Prefer diesels myself, always have. But you can stall them.

I've got a petrol car.

It's the most pathetic, gutless, joyless, POS I've ever driven.

Not the engines fault, the sooner cars start being made from composites the better! It's just heavy!

I like my midget though 🙂

Interesting to see your views on the pro's of a diesel. I think it depends on the cars in question as all of your pro's seem to be covered by my current petrol car.

It is very smooth and cruises effortlessly. I can put it in 6th gear from as low as 30mph and it does not struggle.
It's economical compared to my previous petrol cars - averaged 38mpg on a round trip from South Oxfordshire to Cambridge (on the motorways) which I am more than happy with.
And because of the torque and power of the engine I find it is the most relaxing car I've driven.
But it is a 3 litre straight 6 in a 1 series which are deeply unfashionable these days 😀

Only negative is that it drinks fuel when in queues and urban areas.

Okay I didn't explain myself very well... (well I did in the OP actually 😉 )

Massive dead spot of power under about 2k revs - pulling away from a junction in 2nd is dangerous (I have stalled once and almost come to a stop on a couple of occasions)

It is fine at 1k revs if pulling away in first, it is when I am cruising up to a junction/roundabout or whatever and go into second, expecting it to pull away I have found the problem. It doesn't seem instinctive to drop into first when moving (something I was taught as a learner). I am sure I will adjust my driving style though.

Yeah that's being below the spool speed. I must say it took me about a week to fully adjust to my first diesel.

Ginger one - 38mpg from a 1 series is shocking - I get 52-54mpg on long motorway trips in my Passat, and it's auto.

It doesn't seem instinctive to drop into first when moving (something I was taught as a learner). I am sure I will adjust my driving style though.

I recently switched to a diesel and I'm having the same problem.

So wait.. you are in second, you trundle up to a junction slowly, see a gap and floor it - then there's a pause? That right?

@TheGingerOne - 130i? Are they as much fun as people say? I love the idea of a big engine in a small car

Molgrips, compared to a Diesel then it is true that it is not considered great these days, but for a relatively 'simple' 3 litre petrol engine, ie. no turbo or supercharger etc then it is pretty good. It is as economical as a BMW 116 petrol, but way better to drive with far greater performance. It is also far better than the likes of comparable cars such as the Golf R32 or Focus ST which average about 25mpg compared to my average of just over 33.
Luckily I only do about 6k a year so am not so concerned with running costs.
As I say, it matches many of the OP's benefits when compared to other similar cars, which I think is quite interesting and it is more than good enough to be used as a weekend toy as well (imho) which negates the need to run 2 cars with the extra cost of servicing, insurance, consumables etc.

edit: RandomJeremy, yes it is. Got a 3dr M Sport and it is fantastic Q car when de-badged. I can drive it normally keeping up with traffic without going over 2000rpm, but there is massive power available upto the redline near 8000rpm. Amazingly civilised, a real wolf in sheeps clothing in my opinion. A number of previous M3 owners have downsized to them and many prefer them as they are so cheap to run (in comparison and for the performance) and yet very close in performance terms on the track - so I am lead to believe)

massive dead spot of power under about 2k revs
It takes a while for the power to come in if under 3k revs
that doesn't sound right for a diesel at all - what is it?

Sounds bang on to me.

You just can't beat the response of a non-turbo engine, which to all intents and purposes means petrol. I've driven god-knows how many deisels and it's the turbo that spoils 'em. Sat outside right now (Again...) is my MiLs VW Eos, 140bhp diesel. I fekking HATE the thing. It's the laggiest, least flexible engine I've ever driven. Fast? Oh yeah, it goes like the clappers, but in a pause,rush...pause,rush...pause,rush...pause,rush... manner. And like a lot of powerful diesels it's a pain in the ass to trickle along on zero throttle in traffic, and requires a sixth sense to get off the line in a fast, clean manner, bog down or mad wheelspin is the choice (Well, mad bouncing around as the traction control cuts in at any rate!) It's a pig in town. (And not that economical either) just like our DTi Vectra was.
The other weekend I test drove a Fiat Bravo 150bhp diesel, which was better. Smoother pick up and less lag (Waaaay better specced, more comfortable and a lovely interior too) but still bugger all power off tickover.
I'm not saying I'd never buy another diesel, our next car may well be one, but I'll never LIKE them. It seems the new ones are all like 2-strokes these days.

That said, I've been spoilt something rotten recently by a Ducati V-twin, which wipes the floor with EVERY enngine I've ever even been close to. I've never felt response & smoothness like it......

It is the relaxing bit I don't like about diesels - I drive petrol as the car feels more 'alive' and keeps me more attentive - so I can avoid an accident 🙂

My old Punto diesel (NA) had loads of torque at low revs, as did the Alfa 156 diesels I tried. To me that was the big benefit of diesel.

If only throttle response was the only criteria for a good engine eh PP?

[quote="molgrips"]His engine is quite different from a PD though frogstomp.

Ah, I assumed a PD170.. haven't driven the CR version to compare..

But it's true that different diesel engines can vary wildly in how they drive - my 325D (*ducks*) feels much more like a petrol engine and I have had to adapt my driving style considerably (over the punchy Leon) to get the best out of it.

If only throttle response was the only criteria for a good engine

it is a pretty big one - I am with PP on hating turbo lag. My idea of hell on earth would be a VW Passat diesel with turbo lag...

If I am at 2krpm there's no lag at all on my Passat. So it's a case of using the gearbox. If you want to rag it it's very easy to keep the turbo going. Like any car you have to know how to drive it to get the results you want. The same is true of petrols, but you learned that when you learned to drive.

If I am at 2krpm there's no lag at all on my Passat.

so there is lag under 2k? Ugh!

If only throttle response was the only criteria for a good engine eh PP?

Well, yeah, that would be great.

Simplicity is good too. Stuff like manual gearboxes, normal clutches, and less moving parts (Yes Mr Turbo, I'm looking at you!)
Tell me about the running costs of your Passat again, Mol...... I need a giggle! 8)

But back to throttle response, all anyone ever does these days is blast down a motorway or sit in traffic, so they don't need it.... Toys like aircon, TCS, silly gearboxes and iPod prep get more press than a car that's nice to drive briskly when the mood takes you.... 🙂

I went from a 1999 2.0 Saab 93 turbo to a 2005 1.9TiD Saab 93.

My thoughts:

The old one was faster.

If I am at 2krpm there's no lag at all on my Passat. So it's a case of using the gearbox.

yeah, but you've got a silly gearbox that masks the lag problem! Come and drive this bloody Eos!

If I'm at 800rpm in my Focus, it'll pull decently and smoothly in 5th. Try that. That's flexibilty. Turbos RUIN it!

Running costs? £175 tax is a bit steep, cos it's auto mostly; servicing is £200 or so. Umm.. what else?

PP where exactly do you rag your car anyway? Everywhere I drove round there was either a 40mph speed limit or choked with traffic. Or both.

Toys like aircon, TCS, silly gearboxes and iPod prep get more press than a car that's nice to drive briskly when the mood takes you

You know, some people have different criteria to others...

And remember I live in Wales where they have proper empty mountain roads.

If I'm at 800rpm in my Focus, it'll pull decently and smoothly in 5th

I have tried it, it works fine, and I'll bet it's much quicker than your Focus at that speed too. However you should not be driving at those engine speeds cos the oil pressure is too low.

yeah, but you've got a silly gearbox that masks the lag problem!

The gearbox has its own lag. I was talking about having it in manual mode.

My idea of hell on earth would be a VW Passat diesel with turbo lag...

sorry, I was wrong, it should have been:

My idea of hell on earth would be an automatic VW Passat diesel with turbo lag...

Running costs? £175 tax is a bit steep, cos it's auto mostly; servicing is £200 or so. Umm.. what else?

*Cough* gearboxoilchange *cough* 😉

Bet your insurance is higher than mine too.... Bigger engine, bound to be!

PP where exactly do you rag your car anyway?

Well, to be fair not often. But driving back from Brizzle like I'm doing now, there's a lovely set of roundabouts and twisty roads between the M4 and Hartley Witney which are ripe for a good thrash. Purely in the interests of keeping the engine loose, you understand? 😉

I have tried it, it works fine,

and I'll bet it's much quicker than your Focus at that speed too.

However you should not be driving at those engine speeds cos the oil pressure is too low.

Well in that case why do they let it tick over so low? Why isn't tickover 1800rpm? Don't talk bollocks. What should I do then? pull off at 2000rpm every 15 yards in traffic, wasting fuel? or let it trickle along at tickover in 1st/2nd?

*Cough* gearboxoilchange *cough*

Oh yeah, forgot. Nothing to do with it being a diesel though. Had I known about that I might not have got the auto. As for insurance, it's about the same as the Prius, £30-40/mo ish.

And they let it idle at 800 because it's under no load - the clue is in the name 'idle'.

Yeah. Right.

I may be the kind of weirdo who likes diesels but telling lies on internet forums isn't my thing.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill imo.

My idea of hell on earth would be an automatic VW Passat diesel with turbo lag.

What a nutcase.

A remap will help out the first two cons. Made my 2.0tdi a lot better Although at high speeds (over 70)there is a lot of turbo lag, there isn't any in lower gears and the turbo comes in lower down the revs.

As for insurance, it's about the same as the Prius, £30-40/mo ish.

HOW MUCH???

That's at least £110 more than ours, for 2 named drivers.

Also - Tyres. Big diesels eat tyres
How much and how long do they last?
Wild guess, 235/45/17s which are £166+ each a corner at Kwik Fit, and a front pair will do 20,000 miles at a push?