Looking at the scenes from Clapham this evening (especially comparing them to George Sq last weekend). Surely the Met Police Commissioner will have to go for this?
As has been pointed out, don’t forget who oversaw the operation that ended up with Jean Charles de Menezes being shot dead. I’m not sure she’ll be going anywhere.
Bad when you think other police forces stayed in the background, eg GMP at St Peter's Square
It's got the stench of the Home Sec all over it, particularly when the protesters today would be liable for ten years in prison for "causing a nuisance" according to the wording of the Sentencing Bill going through parliament on Monday.
It’s got the stench of the Home Sec all over it
They were exactly my thoughts. It’s got her fingerprints all over it. She’s a cold-hearted sociopath.
She’s the daughter of immigrants who persecuted immigrants, so it’s difficult to imagine her having any empathy with people who just happen to be the same sex as her
Aye, "...difficult to imagine her having any empathy" full stop.
Dick is also in complete denial about any racism in the Met so not fit to be there based on that alone. Unless that was the work of Patel too.
I thought I had read that politicians had intervened and told the police that they had to stop the protest. i cannot find that now.
Yeah this is the work of Patel.
Time to form a Pentagram (sorry square) around the Pritster
Well it's good that a bunch of men on the internet have worked out this is all the fault of a couple of women.😀
Well it’s good that a bunch of men on the internet have worked out this is all the fault of a couple of women
🤣
Would have been interesting how elements of the Press would have reacted if the Police have stood back, and let the (apparently) unlawful protest go ahead.
I'm no fan of Cressida Dick, but Patel's lack of awareness and her own background is truly amazing.
Well it’s good that a bunch of men on the internet have worked out this is all the fault of a couple of women
Irrelevant. The Commissioner of the Met, and potentially also the Home Secretary (be interesting to see whether Patel's fingerprints are on this as the HS is also asking for an explanation) are being held accountable. Who they are is not the point.
Bad all round. We are in the middle of a pandemic and just the same as I think other protests should not have gone ahead, nor should this one. The Met should have worked with the Reclaim groups to work out how the protest could have happened by other means, but seems like failure to engage in that discussion properly has lead to this. Which then appears to have gone badly wrong.
But I'm also concerned about the shutdown of legitimate protest; the rationale here is because of the pandemic it's for everyone's safety. Not a massive stretch to consider that all protests have a potential to become unsafe, with a bit of bad luck / mal-intent from certain quarters......where does it go next?
Photos I've seen are not great, but I wonder about foreshortening lenses being used again.
I’m so cross about the Met treatment last night. Yes, it did break lockdown rules which I don’t support. But from what I’ve seen those woman last night were not behaving in the same thuggish way as a bunch of football supporters. The whole week has felt overwhelming and this is the final straw. How can I feel the police are there to protect me? It has certainly made me even more empathetic to the BLM movement
The Met should have worked with the Reclaim groups to work out how the protest could have happened by other means
Absolutely. It was perfectly clear that the protesters were determined to go ahead. Met police should've changed their approach and taken steps to help them with that rather than become another obstruction.
Excellent points by theotherjonv - there are obvious parallels to last summer's protests.
Though none were linked to a spike in cases, which does bring you to his other point about the virus being used to stifle protest. Any protest can go wrong, getboutbof hand or turn to violence, we've seen it happen, but that shouldn't be forever used as a reason to stifle protest.
Ahsat - I get the point you are making but why do you have to liken this to football supporters (a whole demographic in itself)
Hundreds of thousands, millions even of people go to (went to) football every week and a very small minority have ever created trouble.
In asking for fairness and respect, you have to give it too.
Ahsat – I get the point you are making but why do you have to liken this to football supporters (a whole demographic in itself)
I’m relating it to the Rangers (?) celebrations in St George’s Square last week, which also broke lockdown rules (which others have also referenced above). I’m am sorry - I was not specific - emotion got the better of me. Police did not behave in the same way there.
I fully agree not all football supporters at the same. I have been to matches myself. My comment was given in the context of the lockdown restrictions and recent groups on the street.
but why do you have to liken this to football supporters
Did you not see the Police escorting the Rangers fans last weekend, and then the subsequent free for all afterwards?
Compare and contrast, as they say...
It was perfectly clear that the protesters were determined to go ahead.
Actually having read further this morning, seems like the original protest was cancelled and became the candles on doorsteps vigil from last night.
Another group them refused to accept and said they would go ahead anyway.
Does not condone the handling or change the opinions but worth noting the actual facts around 'working with the Reclaim group' who I think come out of this even better - because of the Met refusing to engage, they then did change their protest
I don't deny that SOME football supporters are thugs and idiots. Still far too many.
But as a football fan of 40+ years who has never engaged in that sort of behaviour, yes being tarred regularly with that same brush every time an example of a badly behaved crowd is needed does irk me enough to call it out where I see it. Sure call it what it is - like 'some football fans', or 'the idiot Rangers fans last week'. I condemn them all.
Anyway, it's not about that, and Ahsat has commented so move on.
There's a lot to come out about why this protest was met with such active intervention; as i said Patel has asked for an explanation - surely she's not daft enough to be asking for a report on her own instructions, makes me wonder who did decide to start going in and detaining people then.
Also:
Police did not behave in the same way there (referring to the Rangers fans)
Police didn't behave in the same way last night in Nottingham, Bristol, Edinburgh, Cambridge........ why did the Met, and who told them to. That's the question.
[also, hate to mention football again, but title reminds me of a game in the 90's - poss apocryphal tale - but neither of the opposing managers were having great seasons, both sets of fans of fans were calling for their removal, and the game had a prolonged period of call and answer chanting from either end of the ground of 'Dicks out'....'Cox out'.....'Dicks out'....'Cox out']
Back to topic.
My emotion with the whole thing is pretty high and on edge. Sarah was 2 years below me in Geography at Durham. I didn’t know her personally (I recognise the name) but friends and colleagues of mine do. And it all feels very close to home as a 30 something female.
As a result I’m going to step away from this thread (I realise it’s about the Met policing last night but I know I might struggle to be objective). Back to new bike threads and working out how to post pictures 😛
I'm sorry about that, not least as a fellow Durham graduate (fair bit older mind)
[edited other comments from here into the other thread where they are more relevant]
There’s a lot to come out about why this protest was met with such active intervention
It's not like the Met have form for this after all...
It's taken me a while to realise (I'm a slow learner) the cops aren't on our side...
Would have been interesting how elements of the Press would have reacted if the Police have stood back, and let the (apparently) unlawful protest go ahead.
I think they'd keep quiet. Don't forget the more gammony press are very anti-lockdown so outside protest is a Good Thing. But women being safe is a Bad Thing.
You have to ask yourself how something that could be handled easily and thoughtfully could be so catastrophically ballsed up - and the answer is very easily found if you consider Priti Patel.
While individual Police officers may have reservations about what they're ordered to do, never forget that they are employed by the State to protect the State, and to follow its orders. They are not there primarily to protect individuals; it happens if the State's wishes coincide with that of the people, but if they conflict - look out!
It wasn't a protest and there weren't any protestors* it was a vigil.
I think the distinction is pertinent to discussion of the police response.
*One dickhead with a Palestinian flag and a poster about Assange who tries to hijack every street event in London turned up and was apparently told to F off by everyone else.
In the early hours of Sunday, the Met’s Assistant Commissioner Helen Ball said police were put into a position “where enforcement action was necessary”, because of “the overriding need to protect people’s safety.”
Unbelievably the Met response (by a woman!) seems to boil down to "I didn't want to do this, It's your fault that I had hurt you"
Correct, duly noted.
The cops dealt with this vigil in this way because it was an easy target that they could overpower. Ironic as it was a vigil against male violence perpetrated by a male policeman.
They didn’t deal with the football supporters in the same way because the threat of male violence would be aimed against them. Again, ironic.
On top of what’s already been mentioned, I fail to see how that kind of response addresses the Covid risk. The gathering will last longer than if they’d stood back and let the vigil run its course, and all the close up verbal and physical interactions put everyone involved at increased risk of transmission. That response doesn’t even achieve it’s supposed objective of increasing public safety in terms of Covid.
Could that be relevant to the Police response - that it was a Police officer's (illegal) actions that were being highlighted?
Could that be relevant to the Police response – that it was a Police officer’s (illegal) actions that were being highlighted?
I don’t think so. While this is not about how “the Met” feels, there will be more negative feeling towards him than other similar perpetrators because of the betrayal his colleagues will feel. They will be gunning for him (in a professional way).
I’m sure you’re right about the Met feeling nothing but disgust for their colleague. He killed a white woman. If he’d killed a black person, the ranks would close. It pains me to complain about the police like this, it’s a tough job that is mostly done well and with sympathy but the culture needs to change.
It’s taken me a while to realise (I’m a slow learner) the cops aren’t on our side…
Speaking as a white, educated, heterosexual middle aged, middle class chap - I can quite confidently state that the most dishonest, self serving and conniving people* I have met were serving police officers. It's a system rotten to it's core.
* I do know one upstanding officer who I would trust implicitly, so appreciate not all are bad. Exception proves the rule an all that.
The met do have something of a reputation for "looking after their own" though, obviously in this case that can't be done, as he's been charged and due process will take it's course.
But I do wonder if his behaviour will turn out to be symptomatic of a wider problem within the met, kind of like Stephen Lawrence and racism.
If he’d killed a black person, the ranks would close.
In the same circumstances?
So let me get this right, the Met’s response to a vigil about violence against women was to get themselves on the news pictured* being violent to women?
I don’t really know how to respond to the a) getting the response wrong and b) getting their image wrong. Wrong in both content and presentation.
I don’t know enough to place blame on an individual, or even if there is an individual to blame, but how could anyone senior thing that was a good idea?
* The BBC, a very pro-establishment organisation, is carrying pictures of police pinning women to the ground.
In the same circumstances?
Come on, the surprising thing in the case of the poor lass killed on her way home wasn't the fact it was at the hands at a serving police officer. It is that it wasn't swept under the carpet and "dealt with internally"
"In the same circumstances?"
Hard to say what the general response would have been. Bearing in mind that the population at large contains a goodly proportion of nasty racists, (see HMG and the Home Office), hardly surprising if the police contain a similar proportion.
If he’d killed a black person, the ranks would close.
In the same circumstances?
No, I grant you not even the Met could cover this one up. You take my point though.
You take my point though.
Yes.
The whole week has felt overwhelming and this is the final straw. How can I feel the police are there to protect me? It has certainly made me even more empathetic to the BLM movement
My wife got some of these types of comments from her white friends.
It pissed her off - in a “oh now you get it when white blondes are being dragged off from protests by the MET” kind of way.
I completely agree that Police should have engaged and maybe just agreed that for one evening if everyone wore masks that they would keep their distance and let it happen.
Wading in and separating everyone clearly increased the risk of disease transmission as it resulted in people breathing heavily, grappling etc, not to mention how terrible it looks for the Met.
Having said that, would have made sense for the organisers to at least try to make allowances for the current Covid rules rather than ignoring them completely. Plenty of others have had to make huge sacrifices like not attending funerals, not being able to see family members etc.
Having said that, would have made sense for the organisers to at least try to make allowances for the current Covid rules rather than ignoring them completely
They did. They cancelled it, after exhausting legal channels etc (you might recall they unsuccessfully went to the High Court on Friday).
However, everyone recognised that this was unlikely to stop some people turning up there anyway, which is what happened.
Cressida Dick has been a pretty even handed and apolitical head of the Met and as such, I imagine may well be on the Poison Prittster's hit list.
What money on Patel having given an arm's length (probably via minions) 'Becket Approval' to go in hard - and engineer an impossible situation for the Met commander?
Made all the more impossible because the man being charged is/was a copper...
What money on Patel having given an arm’s length (probably via minions) ‘Becket Approval’ to go in hard – and engineer an impossible situation for the Met commander?
High
As I said above I am sure I saw a bit on the Guardian that said the Met had been told to break the protest up.
I doubt Patel is using this as leverage to get rid of Dick but instead is simply incompetent and now ass covering
Two things:
However, everyone recognised that this was unlikely to stop some people turning up there anyway, which is what happened.
The original organisers called it off (converted to the candle vigil). Another group (Sisters Uncut) were the ones that said they were still going to attend in person; might be dancing on the head of a pin here but it was not an absolutely impromptu gathering.
I support absolutely the cause; I'm a little conflicted by Sisters Uncut and their role in this.
Secondly. Re the person accused of this. Innocent until proven guilty please, no matter what the appearance and evidence. That's how we roll in the UK. Some are building a gallows with indecent haste.
they are employed by the State to protect the State, and to follow its orders.
This is not actually what their job is, though it may seem that way.
https://twitter.com/tabascokid/status/1370895807713533953
The group in question was a group of Lock down Protesters according the photographer,
The libertarian approach is well covered by David Allen Green here. The somethingion is that it happened like that because The Met and its commander think that they can get away with it. If that had been a large gathering of blokes who could handle themselves things would have been all together more hands off.
I find myself agree with that summary Sandwich.
One is minded of the lack of police reaction when the facists marched one week after the BLM protest last year - them boys were spoiling for a kick-up but the Met did not oblige. That I don't mind, but the contrast with last night is stark.
Yup.
They probably view last nights protestors as being the same types of leftists that turn up to BLM marches. Stinks of protecting white-male conservative society.
But I tend to see the worst in people, so I guess it could be because they were too chicken to try and arrest the fascists.
I’m sorry about that, not least as a fellow Durham graduate (fair bit older mind)
Same here.... and I went to Cuth's as well....
😟
Having said that, would have made sense for the organisers to at least try to make allowances for the current Covid rules rather than ignoring them completely.
Having said that, would have made sense for you to at least try to look into the actions of the organisers regarding Covid before commenting and ignoring them completely.
EVERYONE needs to keep a close eye on the Crime, Police, Sentencing and Courts Bill passing through Parliament from today.
The debate about violence against women is very relevant here,under the Tories proposals a protester who defaces the Winston Churchill statue will likely get a tougher sentence than someone who sexually assaults a woman...
^^^^
That was my initial thought too when I heard some bits about what would be in it. Shutting down protests that could come from a large section of society (let's put a figure of roughly 48% on it) is something that would greatly interest this current rabble in charge.
I have no problem with proportionate and effective policing. It is the ones pulling the strings we need to be aware of. Several high up figures (Cummings, Jenrick to name two) have already shown that they consider themselves above the law.
Don't forget too, that pretty much all the senior ministers in this 'government' are where they are on the basis of a lie. At some point they are going to be facing big protests about the mysterious slowness of the UK's recovery from covid.
One is minded of the lack of police reaction when the facists marched one week after the BLM protest last year – them boys were spoiling for a kick-up but the Met did not oblige. That I don’t mind, but the contrast with last night is stark.
Yeah that crossed my mind as well.
Last summer the police stood back whilst BLM protestors vandalised war memorials in London - yet the same force felt it was appropriate to handcuff women face down for breaking social distancing rules.
The police are in an impossible situation. If they read the room, appreciate the public mood and potentially poor optics from intervention and decide to allow, normally permissible, peaceful protest to assemble and run during the pandemic, they get criticised for not intervening in an unlawful gathering. This gives tacit approval for said gathering and encourages a 'Cummings Effect' where other protesters / football fans etc, regardless of public support for their cause, feel that they too can do whatever they like; 'cos that other lot did it / plod doesn't GAF / won't intervene. End result is more gatherings and an elevated risk of public transmission / illness / death etc etc.
Read the room differently, respect that a democratically elected parliament passed emergency legislation to prohibit gatherings during a pandemic and that the police are duty bound to uphold said law, by force if necessary, to save lives. Ban events, tell people to go home. If they do gather and, despite repeated warnings, still don't comply, use force, leading to lots of interaction, higher risk of protestor / officer injury, viral transmission, emergency services personnel & protestors self isolating, getting ill / dead, court backlogs worsened / police vehicles unavailable / cells beyond capacity / call delays etc etc.
The police will always be wrong in someone's eyes. Police Scotland and the Met took different approaches and both were heavily criticised. Both were right and both were wrong, all depending on interpretation. What does stink is the gross inconsistency, namely the easy ride 'statue protectors' and football fans were given in comparison to Clapham women, nurses, BLM and environmental protestors. Either everyone is allowed to gather and let off steam within 'normal' parameters, or everyone is told to stay home, stay legal, or suffer the full force of the emergency legislation. Which is it?
This was not an impossible situation for the police. One of their colleagues had just kidnapped and murdered a woman and so other women had gathered to pay their respects and show their frustration at continuing harassment and threatening behaviour by men. The police could had have made sure there were far more women officers present and just made continually advised those present to maintain social distancing. Everyone would have been home by midnight and Cressida Dick would still be on track to an unelected peerage in the House of Lords.
No one is denying the sensitivity of the situation. The gathering was illegal, that automatically makes it impossible to police to the satisfaction of everyone. Either the police condone said lawbreaking or are seen as heavy handed when enforcing the law. There simply isn't a 'right' answer.
Good luck recalling hundreds of female officers to duty. Do you want them to be public order trained and equipped, maybe some tactical advisers, or will any old female officer do?
Do the professional agitators who always hijack every protest plan on playing nice and being home for midnight? What about next week's protest? Is that now permitted to go ahead because you feel this one should have? It just ain't that simple.
One of their colleagues had just kidnapped and murdered a woman
Allegedly.
Innocent until proven guilty.
No one is denying the sensitivity of the situation. The gathering was illegal, that automatically makes it impossible to police to the satisfaction of everyone
I don't think the legality was that clear-cut - certainly there were plenty of other vigils that notably did not have a heavy-handed police response.
Allegedly.
Innocent until proven guilty.
Yes, of course - but in custody and charged, the very least it seems tactless for the Met to be so heavy-handed whilst one of their own is chief suspect.
Saturday's vigil was hijacked and turned into a protest by a group called Sisters Uncut.
Last year (in Manchester) they instigated a counter-protest (which seemed to comprise mostly men) against a group of women protesting about rape culture. Many of the women at the anti rape culture demo were victims of rape. Representatives from Trafford Rape Crisis were also there. Sisters Uncut justified their behaviour because the some of the organisers were known 'TERFS'.
Sunday's protest, again organised by Sisters Uncut was about women they allege were 'killed by the state'. Two of these 'women' are male rapists who brutalised children.
Number 91 in the list is Jade Eatough
https://www.lancs.live/news/local-news/violent-beast-jailed-for-life-1267831
Number 95 is Nicola Cope
https://web.archive.org/web/20150531080143/http://www.tamworthherald.co.uk/Sex-change-man-abused-young-girls-jailed-16-years/story-26584788-detail/story.html
A couple of years ago Sisters Uncut supported Tara Wolf who was found guilty of assaulting Maria McLachlan's at Speakers corner.
At a meeting organised by @Womans_Place_UK, Sisters Uncut stood outside bashing pots and pans drowning out the voices of survivors of abuse and violence. They were invited to join the packed meeting to present their view but declined.
But none of you want to hear any of this do you.
actually go back earlier in the thread and I did say I was concerned by the SU group's involvement in saying the vigil would still go ahead after the initial organisers said it had been changed to the candle vigil.
But you won't want to hear that will you.
The gathering was illegal
I understood the judge had declined to rule on that.
encourages a ‘Cummings Effect’
Is that an effect where a police force refuses to investigate allegations into the activities of a government advisor?
You’re right, it’s far too difficult to do policing sensitively in those circumstances. There’s no way the police could have done anything different. There’s no way the police should apologise.
Saturday’s vigil was hijacked and turned into a protest by a group called Sisters Uncut.
https://twitter.com/munro_nell/status/1371563884407062535?s=20
Aren't actors allowed to attend a vigil?
Not sure that proves anything...
Aren’t actors allowed to attend a vigil?
Not sure that proves anything…
It doesn't but it wasn't a 'vigil'.
Sisters Uncut gave instructions to bring 'your rage', and make sure you don't bring ID etc etc. They riled up the crowd, giving speeches that could jeopardise the court case. They've made Sarah Everard's murder all about them.
They're now demanding money from the crowdfunder organised by Reclaim The Streets to pay any fines etc at the money was for 'the movement'.
The crowdfunder for Reclaim The Streets has raised a phenomenal amount of money, when questioned on Twitter about where it would be going the organisers got very defensive and started getting abusive. They have made it very clear that it will only go to organisation they deem to be sufficiently 'inclusive', i.e. they deem any women's refuge/rape shelter that is strictly women only as allowed by law (Equality act 2010) will not get a penny.
FFS Kelvin, I gave examples of them (SU) aggressively harassing women at multiple events (including an anti rape culture demo). If that doesn't make you question the narrative I don't know what will.
For those of you who have decided (based on a few posts) that I'm some kind of bigot ask yourselves this question, what's more likely: that a load of life-long left-leaning LGBT-supporting (including L+B) women have inexplicably and uncharacteristically all suddenly become bigots or that you might be missing something here?
I don’t think the legality was that clear-cut – certainly there were plenty of other vigils that notably did not have a heavy-handed police response.
I can only speak for local coverage of the Nottingham vigil, but much smaller numbers and all immaculately socially distanced, so no need for a Police involvement. Very different from the (edited) footage I've seen from London.
I agree that the Police would have also got criticised for taking no action. Unless there was something more serious going on as rainper suggests, then that would probably have been the better thing to be guilty of though.