[Closed] Diane Abbott on Any Questions.

First answer wouldn't have gone far on Just a Minute - deviation from the off despite Dimbleby's encouragement to answer the question on her specialist subject. And lots of repetition. Never before has hesitation (silence) been more appropriate.

I would like to see where you were abused for claiming immigration would be an election issue, which would be very different to you being challenged for your usual pot stirring anti immigration views.

Poster after poster said all this talk of immigration was just Daily Mail swivel eyed loony ukiper etc etc and that I was tryingbto say itbwas a serious issue and a cross party one was subject to ridicule and abuse.

I am pro migration, economic and social and pro asylum. It needs to be subject to control as it is in every country of the world except the EU

Immigration is ace. Makes this country more interesting. I'm sad to see it being more inward looking.

Agree with 1 and 2. Brexit will make us much more outward looking globally. Let's have more Latin Americans, and Asians in the mix. In 100 years of close relations with India a country of a billion people i migrants from that nation rose to the most numerous in the UK. In less than 10 years of freedom of movement the Polish overtook them. That's uncontrolled immigration, it is not balanced, it is not planned. The EU is about protectionism and narrowing it's members outlook to focus inwards

Do you suppose that all the Leavers appreciated that distinction

No of course not but Remain failed to make the alternative argument. You know why I think they didn't release lots of detailed data and anlysis on the benefit of EU migrants in particular in the last 10 years, its bevause far from being economically supportive it shows the opposite.

Syrian refugees. I believe those heading to Europe via Turkey/Greece about 30% are Syrian. That's certainly the Germans experience.

You know why I think they didn't release lots of detailed data and anlysis on the benefit of EU migrants in particular in the last 10 years, its bevause far from being economically supportive it shows the opposite.

Just imagine a breakdown between the economic impact of EU15, A8, A10 and A2 nationals...

“We need to be careful of that kind of rhetoric, because it’s not helpful. There is no earthly use in winding people up about immigrants and saying immigrants are driving down your wages, because it’s not true.

The subject of the thread.

I wonder which detailed economic arguments should have been employed to swing these guys over?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-37270519

Her comments on immigration seem perfectly reasonable

The after-work drinks are sexist question was more amusing!!

Ed Balls was quite entertaining on Marr today. As he said just because he disagrees with Corbyn doesn't make him a Tory.

I suspect we'll see a lot more of Diane, maybe she'll take on additional departments / spokesperson duties as as daft as she is she is one of the best and most experienced Corbyn has. As per Marr again I have no doubt Chakrabati will have a Shadow Cabinet Job (as suggested by Marr Justice Secretary ?) once she has her Peerage.

Can people please stop playing divide and rule on this thread?

Poster after poster said all this talk of immigration was just Daily Mail swivel eyed loony ukiper etc etc and that I was tryingbto say itbwas a serious issue and a cross party one was subject to ridicule and abuse

So, no one attacked you for the claim that it was a serious issue, just that your stance was aligned with daily mail swivel eyed loons.

It needs to be subject to control as it is in every country of the world except the EU

Yeah, luckily we can strike deals with our friends the Aussies and the Kiwis, who would never ever enter into any kind of free movement type agreement

as it is in every country of the world except the EU

Israel has entirely free movement based purely on racial grounds.

No they don't.

The Law of Return (Hebrew: ???? ?????????, ?ok ha-shv?t) is Israeli legislation, passed on 5 July 1950, that gives Jews the right of return and the right to live in Israel and to gain Israeli citizenship.[1] In 1970, the right of entry and settlement was extended to people with one Jewish grandparent or people married to a Jew, although they were not considered Jewish under Jewish law.

If my facts are incorrect I am happy to be shown this and retract the point
I will require some evidence, what have you got?

Jews are not a race. Is that enough?

Jews are considered a race in the UK under the race relations act.

Have you any proof the Israelis dont consider Jews as a race?
I honestly dont know for certain,but i assume its a box you can tick on their census for race or some such, and i would be surprised if this were not the case there.

AGain i can be persuaded by proof. Have you any?

Either way the case remains they do have unrestricted immigration only for jews.

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they do have unrestricted immigration

No they don't!

an Oleh visa can be refused on the basis that the applicant

(1) is engaged in an activity directed against the Jewish people; or
(2) is likely to endanger public health or the security of the State.

Therefore its not unrestricted (and its worth pointing out that in the Brexit campaign, the right to refuse entry to EU nationals on a similar basis was clearly put forward as evidence that Britain did not have "uncontrolled borders") so its impossible to claim that Israel's immigration law, which has clear limitations, is unrestricted.

as it is in every country of the world except the EU

FWIW you are correct that unrestricted was the wrong word given the points you raise but i think the broad point i am king* still stands and , STW aside you would accept the policies are actually broadly similar.

This is my monthly try at sensible debate BTW 😉

* one of my best typos so i left it
the broad point i am making for clarity

Jews are considered a race in the UK under the race relations act.

that is one of the biggest demonstrations of law-asshattery there is.

So I can change race by becoming a Jew - that really makes sense.

No its because not only do immigrants from the EU make a positive contribution to the Uk economy but they also make a greater contribution that non-EU immigrants.

that sounds a little bit racist.

So people from the EU, no matter their skill levels, contribute more than skilled people from non-EU people.

It seems it is really about ensuring a supply of cheap-as-chips labour ready to be exploited by companies is the real issue.

that sounds a little bit racist.

Take it as you will - its simple fact

So people from the EU, no matter their skill levels, contribute more than skilled people from non-EU people.

Economically yes - that is also a simple fact. So if you want "economic contribution' to be part of the rationing process at least be sensible about it.

It seems it is really about ensuring a supply of cheap-as-chips labour ready to be exploited by companies is the real issue.

And politicians rely on that kind of false belief to peddle their more xenophobic and racist policies. For them the wider ignorance of the Great British (sic) public is bliss.

If my niebhour, an accountant moved in my house he would make a positive financial contribution and probably even cut the lawn now and then but he wont be getting an invite anytime aoon.

And politicians rely on that kind of false belief to peddle their more xenophobic and racist policies

so if it is false then you are saying that equally skilled people from non-EU countries are somehow deficient compared to those from EU countries.

Where are the numbers coming from to prove this ?

I am saying what I am saying:

Immigrants from the EU make a greater economic contribution to the UK than non-EU immigrants - spin it/re-phrase it how you like

Experts - which is why Brexiteers ignore them (at all our peril)

that sounds a little bit racist.

THM is NOT a racist anyone who reads his posts can tell that[NOT SARCASM he is not a racist]

So I can change race by becoming a Jew - that really makes sense.

Indeed. But I think the idea is still that Jews are protected by race relations law AS THOUGH they were a race.

Having said that I saw it argued on an Internet forum that Jews are for example over susceptible to some congenital heart problems indicating a shared heredity - call it race if you want. Probably I got the details wrong but that was the gist.

So, no one attacked you for the claim that it was a serious issue, just that your stance was aligned with daily mail swivel eyed loons.

I got plenty of personal abuse as well as derision for suggesting immigration was a real issue better tackled now before it turned into something much worse. Well nothing much was done and we've had a racially motivated murder, we are out of the EU and immigration is a much bigger issue politcally including in particular for the Labour party whose head in the sand approach is particularly damaging for them. Posters here seemed to be of the view that immigration meant UKIP and UKIP would hurt the Tories so all jolly good. Now I am happy we are out of the EU but those Remainer should look back and count the cost to their EU desires of not taking it seriously and not making a better job of arguing the case for uncontrolled EU migration.

[b]Jew/Jewish is both a religion and a race.[/b]

Israel was created as the Jewish homeland. Israel has used the same definition of Jewishness for the right to live there and have citizenship as the German's used to send Jews to concentration camps, namley at least one Jewish grandparent.

that is one of the biggest demonstrations of law-asshattery there is.

So I can change race by becoming a Jew - that really makes sense.

I also think it highly unlikely the Jewish diaspora do not view themself as a racial group and all the RW would be going mental if a corbynista said this

Teamhurtmore is definitely not a racist

I got plenty of personal abuse as well as derision for suggesting immigration was a real issue better tackled now before it turned into something much worse. Well nothing much was done and we've had a racially motivated murder

“After the Brexit vote it has got worse – I have seen people change – it is hard at the moment.”

Your thinking is a wonder to behold- to constantly get things this wrong surely requires effort.

Quite. An outstanding feat of logical gymnastics even by his standards.

I also think it highly unlikely the Jewish diaspora do not view themself as a racial group

Double negative. What do you think you meant ?

Jews IME do see themselves as both a relogion and a race and a people.

Now also ime Jews love to argue and debate so I am sure there are many points of views

How as far as I understand it ..

The Jewish people / race / relgion dates back 5000 (?) years. Clearly in that time with extensive migration not least being being forced out of Jerusalem / Israel (as we know it now) and a degree of mixed marriage the possibly classic definition of race based in part on physical appearance may be hard for some people to grasp. You have the two major divisions within the Jewish people of Sephardic (Middle East / North African) and Ashkenazi (Eastern Europe). As Judaism is non evanglical (they don't go out to convert people) the faith / race spreads primarily by marriage and child birth

Quite. An outstanding feat of logical gymnastics

Just trying to communicate my point to you and others.

Immigration and integration and multi-culturalism has not been managed / dealt with at all well over the past 10 years in particular as the pace and scale of it have multiplied not least within the EU. This has created a huge vacuum into which new or non-traditional political parties have stepped. UKiP leading a debate which lead to the Referendum, Front Nationale likely tomeliminate the Socialists from next years Presidental Election, AfD being founded in 2013 and just taking 20% in a German regional election and pushing CDU into 3rd place.

Back to the thread title Diane Abbot still doesn't get that what she is saying does not resonate with people's concern's in 2016

Hmm. It seems that we differ in our expectations of politicians. For me they should lead in some sense, pointing out consequences of various courses of action and arguing for what they think is right. For you apparently they should just pander to whatever ill-informed prejudices will get them votes and hence power.

We're still in the EU btw

DrJ it's perfectly possible for politicians to engage with voters and form policies to address their concerns, that is what imo stops views hardening into more extreme positions. AfD exists as no mainstream German party was pushung for a German exit from the euro or at least stepping away from bailouts of other euro members and has grown and morphed into what we see today as no mainstream party was saying Merkel's migrant policy was wrong.

Labour needs a coherant policy on immigration. Corbyn has openly said he will not engage and does not cae of "such people" go to UKIP, so thise voters will do exactly that, Labour's support will be eroded and UKIP and other parties will become more mainstream.