What's 'stereo'? It's a attempt to reproduce a live music environment in a small artificial environment.
Do you go to concerts? I would argue that few are 'stereo' as most people recognise it in a home environment
I listen to (and play) quite a lot of live classical music. Of course stereo doesn't reproduce the live environment accurately. But it's a pretty good stab at it for relatively simple technology which is easily accomodated in a domestic setting. The only attempt to bring something really accurate to the market place (Ambisonics) failed to take off (though I have a handful of Nimbus Ambisonic encoded CDs I never got round to getting a decoder).
For rock and pop - well even live that's generally just stereo but with bigger speakers!
Anyway, if you want the experience of live performance, go to concerts. Home hi-fi is a whole series of compromises.
Do you actually give a shit? I suspect not...I'm calling 'mild trolling'!
How about SAM...who else is doing this?
Give a shit? As much as anyone else. I like tech and knowing how things work. I dislike BS merchants who claim earth shattering things for stuff that doesn't deliver. I also dislike blind acceptance of stuff without a dose of critical thinking. I don't much like the general cut of the hi fi industry's jib, which has a whole lot of BS and a whole lot of cult and not a lot of actual factual engineering. I'm not trolling. I simply haven't yet seen anything to convince me that any of this stuff is particularly new or groundbreaking or worthwhile or what's that other thing, value for money.
SAM is a digital EQ. End of. I'm not saying it isn't good in and of itself, but, all it does is compensate for whatever response curve the box/drive combo has. It's probably been specifically tailored to the box. Wahoo. To get a flat response from this miniscule driver, it has to EQ out any power from, I dunno, 100hz upward? Plus whatever peaks in the natural response curve exist. Zero time delay + no impulse issues are inherent characteristics of the [i]right[/i] kind of digital filter (FFT I'd guess), so personally, I'm not crapping my pants in excitement about whats happened here, it isn't new tech.
Who else is doing it? No idea, and don't particularly care.
This thing looks like a lot of style over a reasonably solid bit of kit that makes a good go of building a tiny unit with fair frequency response. Network stuff is all very nice but two bits of wire seem to do approximately the same thing for a whole lot less cash.
If you want to buy a set, knock yourself out.
What do they make the wings/woofers out of?
CountZero - Member
What's 'stereo'? It's a attempt to reproduce a live music environment in a small artificial environment.
Do you go to concerts? I would argue that few are 'stereo' as most people recognise it in a home environment.
What are you trying to say here? Stereo is a method of reproduction as you say - to use is as a term to describe a live performance is meaningless.
Why are people arguing about this? Surely you just go and listen to it and compare it to the alternatives and then if it sounds better you buy it?
peterfile - Member
Why are people arguing about this? Surely you just go and listen to it and compare it to the alternatives and then if it sounds better you buy it?
Huzzah.
Why are people arguing about this? Surely you just go and listen to it and compare it to the alternatives and then if it sounds better you buy it?
Makes no difference. Even after listening the argument will continue. It comes down to what you like the sound of.
I'm not arguing, I'm talking around the subject.
[i]I'm not arguing[/i]
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"You are!"
SAM is a digital EQ. End of.
Except that's exactly what it isn't. In fact, the last thing the top quality hi-fi speakers that SAM is programmed for need is some extra EQ - they'll all measure close enough to flat thanks to good driver design and good crossover design. It isn't the steady state response which SAM is correcting, it's correcting amplitude vs time.
"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing". But fortunately for the hi-fi industry most consumers know just enough to think that a device like the Phantom can't do what it's claiming to do. The only people who will buy into it are the wealthy lifestyle consumers who'll like the style or the marketing spiel or the true experts* who appreciate what's actually been achieved.
*Self-appointed but our customers would back me! 😛
So have you actually heard it yet then?
I now huffin about this stuffs, but I do know that it looks as cool as tits;
When I've imagined the smaller drones in Culture novels that thing is pretty much how they come out...
I now huffin about this stuffs, but I do know that it looks as cool as tits;
😯
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Needs more laser to freak out the gamers
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When I've imagined the smaller drones in Culture novels that thing is pretty much how they come out...
Yes
What's 'stereo'? It's a attempt to reproduce a live music environment in a small artificial environment.
No, it is a way of producing sound that supports the human method of hearing, and that is two ears, one on each side of your head, we hear everything in stereo, be that the position of instruments in a string quartet or orchestra or the reverberation of a voice, one ear is almost always hearing a different thing to the other in almost any situation in your life. Stereo recordings support the basic functionality of human hearing, so allow faithful reproduction of recorded events as well as allowing for other kinds of creative messing around with our hearing in music and sound design. Mono sound systems might be OK in a nightclub but at home it would be a bit flat and one dimensional. Its OK on my DAB radio when I'm washing up for example.
Stereo recordings support the basic functionality of human hearing
Basic yes.
so allow faithful reproduction of recorded events
No, because it isn't 3 dimensional, it is a flat field across a limited area in front of the listener.
However, it's a sensible trade off of complexity against accuracy and good enough for the domestic environment.
Except that's exactly what it isn't. In fact, the last thing the top quality hi-fi speakers that SAM is programmed for need is some extra EQ - they'll all measure close enough to flat thanks to good driver design and [b]good crossover design.[/b]
I quote the advert hype on SAM:
the very powerful DSP implemented in each Devialet.
They will undoubtably not have flat response in a tiny box all the way through the frequency range. SAM compensates. If they had flat response, you wouldn't need this SAM thing. QED.
They also will not have an equal response in time domain. Again, stuff that into the DSP.
If you don't believe me, you could read the manufacturer's website.
http://en.devialet.com/technology/devialet-sam-en
There's even a diagram showing a model of the loudspeaker within the SAM section.
I went as far as typing "devialet SAM" into google and hitting I'm feeling lucky to find this out.
Except that's exactly what it isn't. In fact, the last thing the top quality hi-fi speakers that SAM is programmed for need is some extra EQ - they'll all measure close enough to flat thanks to good driver design and good crossover design.
I quote the advert hype on SAM:the very powerful DSP implemented in each Devialet.
They will undoubtably not have flat response in a tiny box all the way through the frequency range. SAM compensates. If they had flat response, you wouldn't need this SAM thing. QED.They also will not have an equal response in time domain. Again, stuff that into the DSP.
I was talking about the outboard SAM units!
http://en.devialet.com/technology/devialet-sam-en
These are the hi-fi speakers for which SAM has been programmed:
ATOHM GT1
B&W 802 DIAMOND
FOCAL DIABLO UTOPIA 3
KEF BLADE
MAGICO Q1
SONUS FABER CREMONA AUDITOR M
VIVID AUDIO GIYA G3
WILSON AUDIO SASHA 2
peterfile - Member
Why are people arguing about this? Surely you just go and listen to it and compare it to the alternatives and then if it sounds better you buy it?
Huzzah.
Rather my take on it.
I've recently revived my interest in hifi. Well, my interest in making the music I listen to elicit emotional and physical responses that I donlt have the language to explain.
What it looks like (beyond being acceptable from an interior design POV*), what shape or form it takes, or who makes it is of little interest.
Ironically, I've decided that repairing/servicing the kit I've had for 20 years is preferable over the angst we see before us.
*another pointless internet argument right there
Angst?ANGST!?!?
It opens like a flipping alien robot with a hissing sound (this may be bollocks*). OF COURSE I HAVE GOT ANGST!!!!
*It is bollocks, but if it does hiss than I'm selling the first born and getting one.
It can play any hissing sound you choose, wirelessly.
As CGG is the most informed person here and he says it's all good then I'm inclined to agree with him.
wrecker - Member
As CGG is the most informed person here and he says it's all good then I'm inclined to agree with him.
chiefgrooveguru - Member
The only people who will buy into it are the wealthy lifestyle consumers who'll like the style or the marketing spiel or the true experts* who appreciate what's actually been achieved.*Self-appointed but our customers would back me
Oh dear
Oh dear
I'm certainly not wealthy, but what's wrong with being a "lifestyle" consumer?
Especially if a bonafide expert says it's good kit?
Who's boing to give the best advice on buying a car; someone who makes cars or a hobbyist?
Who's boing to give the best advice on buying a car; someone who makes cars or a hobbyist?
Someone who's seen the car for a start.
Someone who's seen the car for a start.
Is it necessary? If the expert has the necessary technical knowledge to plainly identify that a product is good from specifcations, and the manufacturer has a reputation for making quality kit then it's not imperitive.
No, because it isn't 3 dimensional, it is a flat field across a limited area in front of the listener.
That doesn't appear to be the case at all with a decent stereo system, because of the phasing information in the signal.
At a basic level when I watch Predator when Arnie and his crew are attacking the village - the sounds are thrown all around me.
In the scene in the circular pool in Blade, where Wesley throws that boomerang thingy around the pool, the sound goes behind me.
And I haven't even mentioned soundstaging with music.
I am tempted to go to Harrods again on Friday to see/hear this system.
At a basic level when I watch Predator when Arnie and his crew are attacking the village - the sounds are thrown all around me.
Yeah, I get that at live classical concerts where I'm sure the entire orchestra is in front of me. Odd isn't it? I wonder why it happens.
So is it one speaker, or a glorified sound bar?
Or stereo, or a mono speaker?
Or does it replace a 5:1 or 7:1 setup?
Yeah, I get that at live classical concerts where I'm sure the entire orchestra is in front of me. Odd isn't it? I wonder why it happens.
loads of reflections happening - normally there is lots of work involved in designing these halls.
I also have a test CD which demos a drumming pattern moving to the side and then behind you and back to the front, to test how good your stereo is.
loads of reflections happening - normally there is lots of work involved in designing these halls.
No kidding? 😉
I also have a test CD which demos a drumming pattern moving to the side and then behind you and back to the front, to test how good your stereo is.
Indeed and as you mentioned earlier it's a "phase" trick. It doesn't make for accurate reproduction though and it doesn't demonstrate "how good your stereo is".
So is it one speaker, or a glorified sound bar?
Or stereo, or a mono speaker?
Or does it replace a 5:1 or 7:1 setup?
It appears to be everything you've ever wanted.
The Whitepaper alludes to it being a standalone stereo speaker, which you can upscale, same as Heos 5 and 7, Sonos 7, Sony SRS-X7 and X9, and Muso (plus ome offerings from Samsung and a few others). However as this is at best 2 times more expensive than it's clsoest rival the Muso and over 3 times what a HEOS 7 is (i've got one and it's bloody ace) - is this thing worth it?
is this thing worth it?
Probably quite hard to say until you've demoed it and compared it to cheaper alternatives?
It would be good if they did a 7 day home trial or similar (like Bose used to?).
Yeah i think they should, the latest on the Wifi "soundbar" (sorry there is an in-joke going on with this), is that people are offering up home trials. I had a JBL Authentics for a few weeks before i sent it back, then got the Heos 7. Surely if they believe in the product enough then offering it is a no-brainer?!
Surely if they believe in the product enough then offering it is a no-brainer?!
Agreed. I know nothing about hifi, but I know what I like the sound of. The last house I lived in had Linn throughout and full cinema set up. That blew me away but when I heard the cost I thought yeah great, but maybe not [i]that[/i] great. My ears aren't that sophisticated!
But, for the price of this, if they sent one to my house, left it there for a week and it blew me away, I'd buy it.
Not a chance I'd order one demoing it in a shop. I'd want to hear it in the room it would be used in. I don't understand the tech, so can't look at it on paper and work out whether it would be good for my room, i'd need to hear it.
Indeed and as you mentioned earlier it's a "phase" trick. It doesn't make for accurate reproduction though and it doesn't demonstrate "how good your stereo is".
It demonstrates that your hifi can reproduce the 'phase trick' - if it can't then it is not going to do very well with the phasing information that has been captured in a decent mic arrangement, assuming a live recording.
I'm pretty certain it's mono unless you get two of them - it's a true 3-way active design so it's not like the side-firing woofers can be used to add stereo information.
If anyone wants to massively geek out on some hi-fi reading, I'm a huge fan of Siegfried Linkwitz's work:
This is a nice summary of the current state of home audio:
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/ALM A'14/Sound_quality.htm
He finishes with:
"The potential in stereo sound has not been reached
- Insufficient attention has been paid to the radiation pattern
Vented box designs dominate. They produce a generic loudspeaker bass character.
Active loudspeakers have low customer acceptance though they give greater design freedom than passive crossover/equalizers and could improve the quality of speakers.
Practical listening room requirements have not been established. The audio industry has provided little guidance to the consumer on room acoustics and speaker placement."
Note the Phantom doesn't do anything about your listening room but it should have a good radiation pattern due to its 3-way coaxial design and non-cuboid enclosure. It is active. And it is not a vented box.
I wonder how their website would read if it hadn't been written by some native French speakers using spectacularly flowery language? C'est l'emotion. **** that, just give me accurate sound reproduction - I'll do the emotion myself! 😉
[url> http://www.linkwitzlab.com/ALM A'14/Sound_quality.htm]Whatever happened to sound quality? by Siegfried Linkwitz[/url]
It would seem that STW can't handle apostrophes in URLs!
It's got the stereo imaging out of alignment.
In the end we have 2 ears, so you only need two channels to reproduce every sound that is possible
Apparently what makes reproducing this complex is that the way we sound decode 3D sound is unique to us as individuals
I wasted alot of time wondering how we differentiate sound in front from sound behind. Given that both ears will hear the sound at the same volume and at the same time
The answers is the its our Pinna that makes the difference. Sound from behind is diffracted around our pinna and this changes the sound relative to sound from the front. As we all have different shaped heads we all hear in 3D slightly differently.
I did hear a demo based on an average Pinna and it was staggeringly different to normal earphones. Apprenltey the commercial idea was to scan peoples ears and then create an audio model that could be applied to the recording as it was played. Please note Turner Guy that the demonstrator said that its much easier to convince people of the effect if there is a visual element
That of course leaves hifi with a problem as stereo really can't do sound behind. But in my experience it seems to reproduce sound in front of you in at least 2D very well
That of course leaves hifi with a problem as stereo really can't do sound behind
So you can't do everything with 2 channels?
Please note Turner Guy that the demonstrator said that its much easier to convince people of the effect if there is a visual element
this is my problem with surround sound at home - the visual clues you get from a small screen in front are too divorced from the attempt to create sound all around you.
Slowoldman
Obliviously you can do it all with 2 channels as we only have 2 ears
But you need to feed 1 channel into each ear and record it via microphones placed in a model of your ear. Or process it to sound like that's what you did
As that's not what a Hi Fi does it can't do behind you
Yes I know about dummy heads and binaural. Yawn.
What if I want to use loudspeakers?
I really like my sound system.
It's only got 2.1 speakers.
If I listen to Nine Inch Nails, considering it never passed through a microphone, where should the soundstage be?
Ghosts 1-4. FLAC. Loud.
I went to listen to these yesterday and, for their size and price, they are by far and away the best speakers I've heard
TurnerGuy - Member
Please note Turner Guy that the demonstrator said that its much easier to convince people of the effect if there is a visual element
this is my problem with surround sound at home - the visual clues you get from a small screen in front are too divorced from the attempt to create sound all around you.
I have a Yamaha A/V amp, which is 5.1, and has a whole bunch of DSP profiles for (supposedly) reproducing the authentic acoustic for various halls, clubs, stadia, etc, and I never use any when listening to music, I switch the effects off, except if I'm playing a 5.1 remastered DVD-A or SACD, and even then I don't add any sound processing, it just sounds false.
I'm not a fan of trying to recreate a 'live' acoustic or soundstage in a home environment anyway; in most live situations the sound is crap unless you're going to stand at the back, because there's no focus for the singer at the front centre, although I have been to a couple of concerts where a couple of foldback monitors in the centre have been turned to face the audience, allowing people at the front centre to actually hear what the singer is singing. This is so rare, though, and unnecessarily so, and it makes a huge difference.
Whenever I read about someone trying to recreate the live experience in home audio, I honestly think, 'you really don't get out much, do you'; and if they have been to the occasional live concert, it clearly hasn't been somewhere like The Scala, in London.
I'd be fascinated to hear this whizzy new speaker playing a variety of music which I'm familiar with, but im not going to travel miles to do so.
Having read all four pages I'm still not sure what is actually being discussed, however if it's a music system it needs: a) one button to turn it on and off. b) easy to program station preset. c) does not require a smartphone. d) sounds like my gran's valve radio.
That's all.
Old curmudgeonly cynic and doubting Thomas I may be, but I bet it sounds better than your gran's valve radio.
Just not as good as my ATCs.