Yeah, that pretty much sums up my view on things.
TGIF! 😆
Democracy? Show me one. We have a sort of pseudo democracy but its fairly ineffective
So you were brainwashed by C4 last night then?
i believe the term is a temporary (i.e. 5 year) oligarchic tyranny
Democracy is a failure... because it gives socialists the erroneous belief that they matter.
We have the best democracy that Rupert Murdoch can buy...
Perhaps a North Korean would have a slight difference of opinion. Reading 'Nothing To Envy', by Barbara Demick might prove to be educational.
CZ I started reading that yesterday too. Loving it. What a brilliant book.
None of this matters if your rich.
Or riding your favorite singletrack 🙂
"Disappointment for Some!" It's hardly a election winning slogan. Unfortunately capitalism and Democracy have become intertwined. Ism's tend to fail.
It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.
said winston churchill. correct, says i.
Democracy is a failure... because it gives socialists the erroneous belief that they matter.
Stoner, why do you have it in for Socialism so much?
Stoner, why do you have it in for Socialism so much?
Probably cos despite upteen attempts to get it to work it never does?
No no, let Stoner speak for himself please.
very, very simply, because to make socialism work to the extent that its advocates aspire to the price is social liberty. Socialism leads inevitably to hypocrisy through patronage. Socialism is never genuinely equitable because you cant stifle capitalism without going all the way to totalitarianism, and even then there's still black markets, patronage and the distribution of goods by price.
At the other end, capitalism, the price of liberty is inequality. There's patronage too. But its not nearly as hypocritical.
I think there's a middle ground and pretty much we live it. We have some inequality but we retain a good deal of liberty.
Im a libertarian. And Ill stand by that even if inequality is the price.
I might hang around the thread if its worth the discussion, but Im not going to bother fielding pipe dream shouty shit from armchair socialists BTW.
Democracy is a failure... because it gives socialists the erroneous belief that they matter.
It matters when it has to bail out Capitalism. All too often these days.
We live in a plutocracy.
Thanks Stoner.
But I'm interested that you view Socialism as some form of absolute; that you can't involve elements of Socialist philosophy in any idea of social and economic organisation.
Im a libertarian. And Ill stand by that even if inequality is the price.
So basically, you go along with what works for you, and sod everyone else? Dog eat dog, basically?
Interesting.
What do you do, if you fall off your bike and get mash-up and need emergency medical treatment?
So basically, you go along with what works for you, and sod everyone else? Dog eat dog, basically?Interesting.
What do you do, if you fall off your bike and get mash-up and need emergency medical treatment?
I might hang around the thread if its worth the discussion, but Im not going to bother fielding pipe dream shouty shit from armchair socialists BTW.
night night ranty nuts. I have better things to do than argue with someone with the intellectual depth of puddle.
and someone disappears up their own arse..christ what a class A t*sser
Way to win an argument, resort to name calling.
[i]Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…[/i]
Pretty much sums it up I'd say!
night night ranty nuts. I have better things to do than argue with someone with the intellectual depth of puddle.
😆
Knew it wouldn't take much! Night night Stoner!
Funny, that whenever challenged, Stoner always resorts to ad hominem attacks, and then flounces off in a hissy fit.
Mind you, I'd expect that from someone without any courage in their claimed convictions. Mouth of a Hippo, balls of a shrew.
Now then, this 'Democracy' lark....
Back to basics.. A Gov't in power with 30ish% of the electorates crosses??
Which socialist governed country has it about right Fred, in your opinion ?
Trouble with 'democracy' in this country at the moment, is we have a coalition government with one party completely betraying those who voted for them by discarding many of their election manifesto promises. Spineless bastards. Kind of invalidates this coalition, but what can be done about it, by the electorate?
It's a disgrace really. In business, you'd be done under the Trade Descriptions Act...
And then they try to drag the charade out for a guaranteed 5 years!...Thats a dictatorship talking..I would like to see them try.Riots like Toxteth et al would be on the cards.
Which socialist governed country has it about right Fred, in your opinion ?
Well, the post-war Labour government introduced such institutions as the NHS (Which Stoner obviously would never use as it's 'Socialist'), state pensions and free milk, to name just a couple of things, and they were probbly the closest thing Britain's had to a Socialist government.
See, I believe that there are elements of all sorts of political philosophies and ideals, which could be used together. You're never going to have the 'perfect' system, as Human Nature simply won't allow for that, but I feel we could definitely have a system that favours more people than the current one. Level the playing field, bring in a bit more equality, let people of all social backgrounds have a fair crack at things.
[b]Elfinism[/b]. It's the only True Path.
Only once Elfintocracy has been achieved, can Mankind have truly reached it's Zenith.
🙂
Which modern day country do you think has it about right ?
Pfft, difficult in't it?
I'd say somewhere like Norway, where you pay high taxes, but receive top-notch services, where the gap between 'rich and poor' isn't anywhere near as much as here, and where the proceeds from natural resources has been ploughed back into the nation's economy, through state controlled industry, rather than into the pockets of private individuals. So, quite a good blend of Socialist and Capitalist policies.
Relatively very small population and vast natural resource revenues do help, mind.
Nowhere near as culturally diverse as the UK and many other European nations, however, and there are undercurrents of racism which have had a profound effect on the native Saami or Lappish minority.
So by no means perfect. Bastard cold in winter, too, and dark.
I'm not saying their system would work here, but it seems pretty good to me, from my visits there.
There are many forms of capitalism and many forms of socialism. Political systems should be viewed as dynamic. Unfortunately I think the UK has been very slow to change and we are still too imperialistic and too short-termist.
Are you ****in nuts, who'd vote for you Elfin? with your crim record and Degree in basket weaving! You'd get some followers though, with that "police, follow this man" sticker on your back 😉
P.S. This has a good diagram at the bottom. http://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010
Ooh! I'm a 'Libertarian'!
Hey, Stoner, we can have a pint together now! Yay! 😀
[img] http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-7.88&soc=-6.21 [/img]
who'd vote for you Elfin?
Erm, anyone who is sane? 🙄 It's the only True Path. I know it, You know it; the World knows it.
They just don't realise it yet...
[img] http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-10.00&soc=4.46 [/img]
That test is rubbish.........it should have placed me as far more authoritarian 😐
I diligently answered each question with the thought "what would Stalin have said". So either the test is rubbish, or I've got Stalin down as a bit of a liberal.......didn't think I had 😕
Ha ha! Fascist!
Conservative intellectual = oxymoron. Simply having learned a few long words parrot fashion doesn't count,Unfortunately they are all too far up their own chutney tubes to realise that 🙂
How is democracy supposed to work when half the electorate is below average intelligence ?
[img] http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-0.88&soc=-3.85 [/img]
Hmmmm, more than a little bit surprised bearing in mind I'm not in the slightest bit socialist! I've definitely become a lot more liberal and tolerant over the last few years, but I'd consider myself right of centre for certain...
when half the electorate is below average intelligence ?
LOL!
So, back on topic, Democracy is a failure due to the debt it creates bribing people?
Didn't the Romans have exactly this problem under their assorted emperors, who hand out free grain and circuses in order to keep the plebs happy.
So it's not a problem unique to democracy. And at least with the latter we don't need a civil war or a murderous praetorian guard to change things.
Anyway, what's wrong with debt exactly?
No, this is a view countries like China hold about western democracies. The programme on Channel 4 was very interesting and from what I could see, was critical of government of any political persuasion. These economists were saying that big government was too expensive and that the entire democratic system is a fraud because it supports bribery and employs too much of the working population. It certainly showed how commercially/financially incompetent politicians are. It also showed that, despite the cuts being made at present, the public debt will still grow.So you were brainwashed by C4 last night then?
Hmmm epic pic post fail. Although it was quite accurate 😀 with my middle left slightly authoritarian views.
mboy - MemberHmmmm, more than a little bit surprised bearing in mind I'm not in the slightest bit socialist! I've definitely become a lot more liberal and tolerant over the last few years, but I'd consider myself right of centre for certain...
You have hinted at one of my problems with part based politics. People regard them-self as fitting into party x or place them self as being right wing or left wing and that's it. I realise the questions in the survey are not perfect but it goes to show how your views may be quite different from who you vote for. People also align them-self with one party and that's it, even if you swapped policies around they would still align them-self with with the same party. Humans are by nature tribal and we like labels. So if we align our self with a party it's quite wrench to change.
If we align our self as right of centre but then a part is described in the media as left of centre, even if we agree with more policies with said party, we are unlikely to vote for them because of where we regard ourself. I'm not say people do not change their allegiance but they do not do so as much or as freely as they think. Objectivity is hard, and we all have prejudice about moving votes / allegiance e.t.c.
The debt problem was caused by incorrect pricing.
You can make money in several ways. You can add value to something. Buy some wool, spin, and knit a jumper. You can make goods available to someone. Buy bananas ship bananas sell bananas. Sell knowledge and labour. Build bridges e.t.c
The best way to make is to find an incorrectly priced market, i.e. something where something is incorrectly priced due to you being-able to skip a cost.
Start a waste dispose company. Collect waste from people but them dump it all on some waste ground. You are a voiding the cost of properly disposing of the waste. The cost is born by the local community not just monitory terms but also in a drop in quality of live due living next to a load of rotting shit. Without regulation / fines e.t.c The company are missing lots of the costs. This an hole other world of of discussion on the incorrect pricing.
This business model is the one Oil companies are typically using. The cost of the damage caused by pollution is born by all. Of course maybe the consumer of the goods should pay for the damage is much of it's damage is not done until it is burned. Oil is a bit of a special case as the rest of the economy now depends so much on incorrectly priced oil correct pricing has to be moved towards very slowly.
Another way of making loads of money with incorrectly priced goods in through deception.
Start buy written off cars. Weld them together. Sell on. The customer buys the car on faith that it is a good safe car but the car carries a hidden risk that is not fully factored into the price. The extra risk of serious injury in the event of a crash. This is the business model employed by some parts of the banks with the debt, the risk of default in the event of a crash was hidden. Deception.
Is it possible to have investment without debt ?
If one person has got money, which they don't need in the immediate future, and want to invest it, whether that's on the stock market, a savings account or premium bonds, would they be able to do so if it wasn't for other people having mortgages or buying stuff that they can't really afford on credit ?
You need to have debt to have economic growth as I understand it otherwise you have a finite amount of money and it is only moved around.
A good documentary about money is
The Ascent of Money Niall Ferguson http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-ascent-of-money
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_creation
Also http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Modern_Money_Mechanics All though I think this is meant tobe out of date but some of the principles still hold. I'm not sure how independent it is as publication.
I have not read all of the above link but but only bits as I've fancied so I'm no expert they are probably many other good reference's out there too
My point about incorrectly priced markets was going to be that the governments are the only ones who can correct the prices by way of taxes and fines. Unfortunately in the case oil companies the rest the economy relies too much on the incorrect pricing big complicated issue. In the case of banks the too big to fail situation comes to play, again too pivotal in the economy.
[img] http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-5.75&soc=-6.56 [/img]
Seems about right.
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