[Closed] Declaration of war

The British declaration of war was worth sh..t. Until Hitler attacked France GB didn't move a finger. I expect somebody will try to argue the facts so, on top of the book above, check history books. TJ, will you be the first?

This day 70 yrs ago my dad [who was already in the army] was sent with another squadie to dig in on Hartlepool beach & prevent any invasion
They had their rifles & an old Lewis gun + 1/2 a magazine [about 25 rounds] 😀

The British declaration of war was worth sh..t.

I think declarations of war are well cool ..........sadly we go to wars these days without bothering to announce a declaration of war.

I reckon they ought to bring them back.

Yes, I guess we didn't do much for Poland, HC. Perhaps they did more for us? In terms of the pilots that came here and flew for us? Not to mention helping with Enigma...

I think declarations of war are well cool ..........sadly we go to wars these days without bothering to announce a declaration of war.

I reckon they ought to bring them back.

As well as a legitimate reason for the declaration. Falklands, although not technically a "war" was at least a justified action in that British territory had been invaded by a foreign power. Bliar and chums have taken us to wars with no validity, under false pretences. Oddly, if Bliar had said he was doing it for regime change in Iraq, I might have agreed, but no.

The Second War was a necessary and justified action to stop something that the world would not tolerate. To all those who fought (be they military or at home, they all fought in my eyes), I raise my glass.

Uplink - I will trump you one war. Same place, though.

My grandfather was sentry guarding Hartlepool port in the early days of WW1. He swapped duties to see his girlfriend, and the tommy who replaced him had the honour of being the first man killed in British soil in the war. The German fleet was shelling from offshore.

[i]Perhaps they did more for us[/i]

Do you think! The Polish were extraordinary in WW2 and usually over looked.

Hartlepool must have seen a lot of action [not necessarily military] 😀

I don't whether or not he was over egging it a bit or not but he reckoned they took turns going to the pub because they were on free beer & the barmaid was nice

soma_rich - Member
Perhaps they did more for us

Do you think! The Polish were extraordinary in WW2 and usually over looked.

Agreed. Polish pilots were among the finest in Fighter Command. Chapeau!

Flish Flash, I thought you learned your lesson that day ernie buried you for using a commemoration on the Normandy beaches to have a pop at Brown.

Obviously, all the expensive education hasn't paid off. You're a slow learner.

I really enjoyed listening to the stories on radio all day. I forgot about how much I hate tories when I listened to some of Churchill's speeches.

Cheers though, you just reminded me. You just can't help yourself.

There were some very decent bomber plane pilots, handy seamen and a few sex providers (an old darling in Ealing once told me at the Fuller's) 😉

My old man ( sadly no longer with us) served the war as a miner in the Seaham coalfields.
I have his first payslip framed on me wall, the princley sum of 14 shillings and 5 pence!

Darcy, you really are a chippy little git some times, aren't you? 😀 Feeling this incessant need to continually remind people how much you hate Tories. Rather sad, really.

I'll happily have a pop at the pathetic excuse we currently have as a "leader", especially when one sees his books on "courage". The man knows nothing of it.

Polish pilots? They knew courage. Bomber command? They knew courage. The Land Army, the fire patrols in cities, the workers in the munitions factories, they knew courage. This thread is about the declaration of WWII, so perhaps you could focus on that instead of your chip encrusted shoulders?

"Chipper"?? I do love your use of language sometimes...maybe the education wasn't entirely wasted.

I'll happily take any chance

I know, that's what I was pointing out....[i]any[/i] chance at all...I'm just showing you the error of your ways. Don't go getting, let me find the right word, chipper with me when I do.

perhaps you could focus on that

That's what I'm trying to get you to do.

soma_rich - Member
Perhaps they did more for us

Do you think! The Polish were extraordinary in WW2 and usually over looked.

Oh, yes I do think - was it 333 Squadron in Fighter Command? Anyway, men and women who had lost everything and with a lot to fight for. Sad that they were overlooked.

Umm, let's not get into a politics thing on this thread- not why I started it - start your own if you want to have a pop at someone!

Hairychested - Member

................. check history books. TJ, will you be the first?

Why the attack on me? I don't even understand your point.

I too have read widely about WW2 - and other wars from all sides. I too have visted many war sites, from the trenches of WW1 to the Normandy beaches. I have cried for the dead at Auschwitz and at the museum in Kobarid . I have looked after WW! and WW2 veterans and hopefully helped them find some peace at the end of their lives.

War is a tragedy for those who die in it and those who live thru it.

I do not see what else the UK could have done but declared war when it did and fought as and when it did. Around the edges of Britains war may have been some dishonourable episodes but on the whole Britain was a force for good and acted in a moral manner.

I was not alive then so I have never been tested as those men and women were. If I was I would hope I would not have been found wanting and that I could have kept my mind and my morals intact.

Lest we forget.

Until recently - to my shame - i didn't know Ireland were independent during WW2.

CFH - the hypocrisy in your post and the petty point scoring does you no favours

CaptainFlashheart - Member

.......... incessant need to continually remind people how much you hate Tories. Rather sad, really.

I'll happily have a pop at the pathetic excuse we currently have as a "leader",...........

Why the attack on me? I don't even understand your point.

It's a tradition TJ............to say : "TJ will be along in a minute".

I'm not sure who started it........ was it Stoner ?

Excellent first post TJ.

Never mind the rest... 'nuff said.

Sounds like we might have been to some of the same places? Tyne Cott, Beaumont Hamel, Arromaches, Pegasus Bridge...

Nice one.

Good to reflect - contemplating reading books on Hess and his 'peace mission' I have a lot of respect for the people who fought in the war but little time for the British Establishment who would have jumped ship as soon as the first German came ashore.

Heroes led by donkeys - all too familiar.

My Grandad was in the Police, so exempt from fighting. However, he joined up towards the end of the war (we're not quite sure why, but think it was because all his pals were fighting and dieing, so maybe a little bit of peer pressure and guilt). He went to South Africa to train with Bomber Command as a Navigator. He flew with 634 Squadron on bombing raids over Dresden, and was shot down and killed 2 weeks before the end of the war. We have letters home to my Grandma from a crew member who survived the plane crash (the plane broke in two, but one crew member fell out with a parachute and survived). The sad bit of the story was that his family blamed my grandma for forcing him to join up, which is probably complete tosh, she almost certainly would have been against his decision, but equally supportive, a sign of the times I presume!!. I don't think she ever recovered from their accusations, she became a very bitter and twisted old spinster and was not a nice Grandma. Their/his story didn't really come to light, to the family, until after she died. My Dad grew up almost completely oblivious to it all, she never talked about it, he had vague memories. We discovered the letters after she died and my dad filled in the gaps from his early childhood memories.

Tankslapper - its interesting to read war books from the other side. "the forsaken army" about Stalingrad was a good read if rather grim. "all quiet on the western front" is famous of course.

I also once came across a book called " the great Ruhr disaster" ( or something similar)which was a German account of the bombs raid - I rather struggled to read it tho as it was in german and can find no reference to it on the net now.

Amazing tale Ayatollah, my Dad too joined up after serving down the pit from 1940 (just a boy) till the end of the war, I suppose they just thought they had to be part of the services- even though they'd down more than enough at home.

That's a tragic story Banana. Although any bitterness over losing her young husband by your Grandmother is understandable to a large extent. I guess remarrying was possibly not quite so acceptable for women in those days - specially if they had children from a previous relationship.

You had the highest chances of dying if you were a merchant seaman.

Yup. My grandad- on my dad's side- had 4 ships sunk from under him, absolute miracle he survived. That whole side of the family were merchant navy, 6 assorted brothers and cousins, only 2 got home. Unsung heroes... Though a few do remember them.

My other grandad spent the war as RAF ground crew, essentially fannying about and achieving nothing much, apart from breaking a leg playing football. But when he got home he was a proper war hero in his RAF uniform, while my dad's dad was "just a sailor". Mad.

Yes, we often wonder whether she never remarried because of that accusation from his (my grandads) family. So maybe, she had to prove a point to them, of absolute devotion, by never meeting anyone else. Her friends, of similar situations, moved on and remarried, her story is very sad, there's more and I won't bore you with it, but she didn't remarry or want to remarry and unfortunately became a very bitter old woman. But, maybe it was also her being a product of those times, where remarrying was not so acceptable.

My memories of her are not that great, although I'm rather (tragically) prowd that she is the only old lady in Skipton to have been 'band' by the local taxi company and to be 'thown out' of 2 local old people homes.

My other grandad spent the war as RAF ground crew, essentially fannying about and achieving nothing much, apart from breaking a leg playing football. But when he got home he was a proper war hero in his RAF uniform, while my dad's dad was "just a sailor". Mad.

I took over a sales job from an old Spitfire pilot (this was in the 1980s). I asked him about how much action he saw in the RAF during the war. His reply was "mostly in the nurses quarters!". In hinesight, I think that is the standard response from people who didn't/don't talk about it.

Feeling this incessant need to continually remind people how much you hate Tories. Rather sad, really.

I don't want to get into the ethics of Bomber Command and Sir Arthur Harris

It's amazing how little people understand about Bomber Command's vital role in WWII. Given the massive number of aircrew lost it's quite shameful our country has never given them the full recognition due. Possibly GB's earliest stab at political correctness..

My grandad (RIP) flew Blenheims early in the war bombing the German advance through Europe. The aircrew death-rates were staggering. He himself lost literally his entire squadron

it's quite shameful our country has never given them the full recognition due.

Well that's complete and utter nonsense - innit ?

My father was with Bomber Command during WW2 (Lancaster nav.) never once do I recall him expressing the view that aircrews didn't receive 'the full recognition due'.

.

Possibly GB's earliest stab at political correctness..

And your comment, is a classic example of completely baseless drivel...........so loved by those who scream : political correctness gone mad, the nanny state, prisoners are kept in five-star hotels, ......[i]blah blah bollox, blah blah bollox, etc etc[/i]

It's not wrong at all Ernie..

it's quite shameful our country has never given them the full recognition due.

Well that's complete and utter nonsense - innit ?

My father was with Bomber Command during WW2 (Lancaster nav.) never once do I recall him expressing the view that aircrews didn't receive 'the full recognition due'.

.

Possibly GB's earliest stab at political correctness..

And your comment, is a classic example of completely baseless drivel...........so loved by those who scream : political correctness gone mad, the nanny state, prisoners are kept in five-star hotels, ......blah blah bollox, blah blah bollox, etc etc

Sadly not, out of the western forces (Soviets lost so many and cared so little about losses) Bomber Command suffered similar losses to the Kriegsmarine's U Boats - about 1 in 4 survived.

Peacetime reflection on the morality of the area bombing campaign and Sir Arthur Harris' abrasive personality are believed to have denied Bomber Command personnel the [i]official[/i] recognition for their contribution to the war effort. I think this might have been corrected in the last decade or so. The same applies to the Merchant Marine - there is now a memorial to merchant seamen in Cardiff Bay

My dad joined the navy in '39 and was on destroyers between 40-43. 2 years in the Battle of the Atlantic where his ship was sunk by torpedo. He saw too many merchant ships go to the bottom. He was transferred to minesweepers late '43 and became one of the so called 'unsung heroes' with an average life expectancy of 3 months! What other ship heads into minefields... His flotilla was one of many ahead of the D-Day invasion.

After D-Day he was moved to the Indian Ocean to join the push against Japan. His ship was sunk by a Japanese sub & some of the survivors were machine gunned in the water to attract sharks. He could never watch war films depicting this act. Came home in 1946 & like a lot of others rarely spoke of the horrors until 40 years later. He did his duty as far as he was concerned (how times change).

I think this might have been corrected in the last decade or so.

If anything, I would say the complete opposite. The British people were fully aware of the role of Bomber Command and yes, they were also fully aware of the losses - in fact they had daily reminders. My mother told me that they would always watch the bombers returning from their bombing missions over occupied Europe, they always returned in exactly the same formation as they flew out, gaps were simply left for the missing aircrafts. She said it was desperately sad to see the huge gaping holes left for their fallen comrades in the bomber formations.

Many years ago I worked with an old boy who had been a young rear gunner on Lancs, he was probably one of the worst carpenters I have ever worked with - bless him, but he could get away with anything, because as far as everyone was concerned, he was a war hero ; "Oh well, Bill's done enough for his country already" was a typical attitude when he ****ed up.

It is nonsense to suggest that Bomber Command aircrews didn't get the recognition which they deserved. If anything's changed, then it's been in recent times because people have simply forgotten. Maybe time for another Bomber Command war film ? They were certainly very popular many years ago. As I've already said, my father never complained that Bomber Command's role wasn't properly recognised - and my father definitely wasn't shy to speak his mind !

ernie_lynch - agreed in terms of popular recognition. I think what has been meant above was the official recognition - memorial, campaign medal etc... probably less meaningful than the recognition of society in general though...

One of my more distant relatives was a bomber pilot during the war. He would never talk about personnel or operations etc, but as young boy interested in aircraft, he was more than happy to talk about the planes themselves. He was regarded by local people as having done his bit and suffered the mental and physical health effects that went with it - everyone accepted that what he was involved with was needed, and was effectively payback for German bombing of the UK..

Very moving how ordinary men & women did extraordinary things and then returned to relative normality to live out their lives without any fuss.

2 Grandfathers served in WW1 - Ypres, Passiondale and Mons between them.
One won the DCM for rescuing his mates and an officer from no-man's land under machine gun fire - he never mentioned it and went back to working in the steelworks of Sheffield to bring up 4 kids alone (Gran died of cancer at 30).

Father flew Hurricanes in WW2 in Africa, went back to work as a draughtsman in a foundry.

Wife's grandfather was in the 8th Army, went from D Day right through North Africa, Italy and into Germany - immediately after the war they posted him to Aden - did not see Janes's grandma for 4 years. He only ever moaned about losing the first 4 years of married life, all else he just sucked up and go on with it.

The allotment over the lane is worked by an ex Polish pilot, he was saved from Stalin's purge by being married to a local girl. On remembrance day he and a Lancaster pilot go to the memorial loaded down with campaign and gallantry medals.

All of them were (and still is in my father's case) very modest men - have always been immensely proud of my family's part.

I wish I could be confident that I would do likewise.

Oh yes - re Bomber Harris and the dropping of the Atom Bomb - my father's strongly held view was that if it stopped one allied soldier, sailor or airman from being killed it was worthwhile.
He had lost a lot of friends fighting both the Germans and the Japanese.

yup, a momentous ocassion indeed and worthwehile remembering.

My own grandfather was in the Desert Rats (8th Army, Artillery) and having fought through North Africa was killed in Italy in 1944 when my mum was just 4.

His brother (my great-uncle) was captured at Dunkirk in 1940 and spent 5 years in Stalag Luft IV having been marched from Dunkirk to Poland and witnessed other British troops being shot because they couldnt keep up on the march.

My grandmother remarried after the war to the bloke I knew as Grandpa who was in the Para's and for some reason was in Java during the war (have never quite worked out why) although they both died about 25/30 years ago.

My grandmother's brother (another great uncle) was in the boiler room in HMS Belfast all through the war and survived although he's been dead a while now too.

All fought and/or died for a good cause.

I wouldn't feel the same nowadays as I dont trust any politicians.

Have read countless material on the subject all through my life but have just finished reading "Italy's Sorrow: A Year of War 1944-45" (whilst on holiday in Italy) by James Holland which is superb book and details amongst other things the fine role the Poles fulfilled as well as 17 other nations forces on the allied side and how betrayed the Poles felt at the way things panned out in Eastern Europe.

My grandfather served with the 8th army Royal Artillery at places like Tobruk etc.
He never spoke much about it but i do remember him telling my dad that any member of the Afrika Corps was welcome in his house, he had a lot of respect for them as soldiers.
Hated Italians mind....

I sometimes question why we bother commemorating these things, after the full horror of the holocaust was revealed vereyone said we must never let it happen again. Sadly we all sat back while it happened in the Balkans and only intervened to late imo.

My grandfather served with the 8th army Royal Artillery at places like Tobruk etc

My dad ended up there after he'd finished defending Hartlepool 😀

He then went on to Italy

My grandfather was also involved with the Italy campaign and hated the US General Mark Clark (or so i was told yrs later).

My great-uncle was in submarines, got torpedoed a few times, the subs sank but he survived the lot. Then he ended up in the Resistance in Crete for 18 months - his wife didn't know if he was alive or dead. They lived in a house opposite the Gestapo headquarters.

The missus is watching the final of 'Big Brother', where people are lauded as heroes for living in the same house for ten weeks. Says a lot about society today.

By the way, I can highly recommend Roald Dahl's book 'Going Solo', about his experiences as a Hurricane pilot in WW2. Out of the 16 people in his class, only he and one other survived. Gripping stuff.

There's a new series called 'Atlantic Convoys' on C4 Sunday 7pm which started last Sunday. As my dad served for 2 years on destroyers during this time it does give me an insight into what he went through.