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At least fishing is a little more fair
You're getting closer to home (assuming anyone here still rides bikes). Shimano is a major manufacturer of fishing gear.
Oh and rod and line fishing, in the UK at least, is a net benefit to biodiversity due to the habitats it protects.
Oh and rod and line fishing, in the UK at least, is a net benefit to biodiversity due to the habitats it protects.
You could equally say the BASC does the same. Full circle, again.
A bit, yeah. I'm not anti shooting per se though. Just anti the way birds are being hunted to extinction.
I'm going to own up to not really caring about this one.
If a French company want's to sell French people kit to legally murder birds in France I'm kind of not bothered. It's more of an issue for the French to decide if they want the sale of baby bird murder tools banned or not.
Us Brexitty Brits can have all the opinions we like even boycott their cheap badminton rackets and rucksacs, but a petition telling a foreign business how to operate on foreign soil is both pointless and a bit self important.
BUT – what is the difference between shooting small animals and shooting big ones?
The size is not the issue, the issue is killing animals for fun that have declined massively in recent years. Song Thrush in the UK are down by about 50% in the last few decades, I imagine it's a similar picture in France.
This:
I’d suggest mols you have a look at the impact of trapping and shooting in the med and eastern Europe on migratory birds. It’s one of the big factors, alongside habitat loss, driving some species close to extinction.
This is worth a look as well for those insisting that killing migratory birds is legal and nothing to be worried about.
but a petition telling a foreign business how to operate on foreign soil is both pointless and a bit...
Would it be STW without disagreement?
A petition by definition (if I’m correct) is a request, an appeal etc, usually to a power/authority.
Quite the opposite of dictating to someone.
...
self important.
See above
If these birds are being killed for fun, that's not cool and I don't agree with it at all.
However, there are far greater crimes in the frozen food isle in supermarkets, which most of us are party to. It perplexes me that people are so vocal with their outrage on these matters, but more often than not completely unwilling to change their own behaviour which would have a far greater impact in terms of reducing the suffering of animals.
I was unaware that they use glue-traps to live-trap songbirds as decoys. There’s even a robin for the STW fans of memelore. Not personally aware of the origin/meaning of the ‘baby robin’ meme so apologies if it mixes messages.
“Those are verguettes: sticks covered in glue. The callers call, other birds come, land on a verguette, and they’re stuck. The more they struggle to get away, the more they become stuck.”
Decathlon say
By committing to eco-design, we give millions of plastic bottles a second life. We stop them from filling up and polluting our environment and hurting other humans and creatures, meaning you can wear our clothing and use our equipment in good conscience.
From mountain tops to local parks, sports halls to ocean waves, the pleasures and benefits of sport can be shared anywhere, by anyone.
And
Protect our mother nature
We help people stay healthy for longer through sports and, at the same time, aim to have a positive impact on the planet.
https://www.decathlon.co.uk/about-decathlon.html
It perplexes me that people are so vocal with their outrage on these matters, but more often than not completely unwilling to change their own behaviour
Haven’t personally seen any ‘outrage’ on here. May have missed some posts. Just the characteristic STW understatement, snark and/or ‘meh’.
But if it makes you feel any better - I signed the petition, true. Do you know want/require me to tell you all of the other things* (activism, employment, habits, diet, footprint, purchasing, campaigning, fiscal support) that I do and have done? Or would that be ‘virtue-signalling’? TBH I’d feel uncomfortable to have to do so every time I comment on a post about something related. Do I have to prove that I’m a card-carrying UK anti-bloodsport campaigner* in order that my appeals to the French aren’t motivated by xenophobia? Not so far-fetched a concern hereabouts.
*causes/issues/environmental/wildlife/anti-cruelty/humanitarian etc
These things aren't a simple mathematical sum of whether X or Y causes more suffering.
Much like fox hunting, I think why people find it so distasteful is that the birds are being killed for entertainment, and most people don't like the that now. Especially when it's grown men killing tiny songbirds with shotguns (struggle to call this hunting).
It's also more than just the cruelty aspect. The turtle dove is a particular favourite but is on the brink of extinction. These activities are a genuine threat to biodiversity.
think why people find it so distasteful is that the birds are being killed for entertainment, and most people don’t like the that now
Possibly for some but (as always) doesn’t pay to assume that is the only motivation for objection. That’s speaking for them, ie black and white generalising - yet the subject is not so much. There are still people alive who actively care about biodiveristy/healthy ecosystems as much as they do cruelty. Probably some who don’t even care about cruelty but do yet care about the environment. I’m not (I don’t think) the pass-me the smelling salts type having shot, trapped and mutilated quite a few birds and animals for ‘sport’ when younger.
Meh, Whatever...
I don't disagree that little birdy murder is a bad thing, it's certainly not my hobby of choice.
I just lack your conviction that Decathlon should be the focus of any anger over it, I just think there are bigger issues to deal with right now.
The size is not the issue, the issue is killing animals for fun that have declined massively in recent years.
Ok but as above - this is not a songthrush-specific piece of equippment. It's a small shotgun cartridge. The problem is if people choose to shoot endangered birds or animals with it.
I just lack your conviction that Decathlon should be the focus of any anger over it, I just think there are bigger issues to deal with right now.
Am pretty sure the OP has been suitably shamed by now. Maybe they should have not come over so angry about the widdle-biddy birdywirdies (and so uncaring over bigger issues?)
Songbirds - 2
STW - 10
Next?
It is also perfectly valid to petition a multi national company for activities done in a country different to yours.
We've literally spent the last four years banging on about "Brussels telling us what to do" and we're proposing now to tell Spain and France what to do? Hypocrisy much? We've made our bed here I'm afraid.
I really cannot understand your objection.
I don't object to it, I think it's laudable. I also think it's pointless.
It the 'hunting' is problematic - and I don't know enough about it to form an opinion on it either way - then it needs legislating against and enforcing. The problem here is not Decathlon.
(For the avoidance of doubt: I don't support hunting of live targets for 'sport' in any form whatever the target.)
Exactly; plenty of people object to bull fighting from outside Spain.
And as a result, bullfighting was outlawed.
Oh.
Presumably you are also fine with the killing of endangered wild animals for use in ‘traditional medicine’.
Presumably you're also against killing animals and turning them into burgers?
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Appeal-to-Extremes
Do you think an effective way of controlling the illegal hunting of endangered species would be to start a petition asking Decathlon China to stop selling bullets that can kill rhino?
Do you think an effective way of controlling the illegal hunting of endangered species would be to start a petition asking Decathlon China to stop selling bullets that can kill tigers?
See again ‘appeal to extremes’ and an ‘either/or’ fallacy ^
The OP petition doesn’t explicitly call for Decathlon to stop selling cartridges that can kill songbirds.
Decathlon must stop promoting slaughter of songbirds and migratory birds
This petition calls for Decathlon to:
- publicly condemn the slaughter of songbirds and small migratory birds,
- revise their product range* and marketing accordingly, and
- make a meaningful contribution to wildlife protection.
*open to interpretation. The petition’s focus is more on Decathlon’s explicit promotion of shooting songbirds
These activities are a genuine threat to biodiversity.
This.
You can be perfectly accepting of killing animals for food, sport, or whatever... and still want species to be protected... and pressure on brands and other commercial interests can often be at the forefront of change when it comes to that protection... rather than waiting for governments and/or transnational bodies to legislate. See also habitat protection...
Ah, you're right, it's asking them to change their advertising. That'll be far more effective, then.
"Mon deiu et zut alors, I went on to ze Decathlon for ze thush bullets and all I can find are zese 9mm shotgun rounds! Fancy a game of Backgammon instead, Claude?"
These activities are a genuine threat to biodiversity.
Assuming this to be true (and I don't know if it is) then it needs banning, or at least tightly regulating.
pressure on brands and other commercial interests can often be at the forefront of change when it comes to that protection…
Fair actually, you have a point here.
You know, I'm coming round to this way of thinking now. I still think that this isn't the root of a solution but sometimes to affect change you need to take baby steps.
I find it really depressing that Brits want to sign a petition to force a French company to change what they do in France.
I still think that this isn’t the root of a solution but sometimes to affect change you need to take baby steps.
I agree that it feels a bit [edit: 'very'] futile to sign this petition in the grand scheme of things... but so does so many actions we could take, or choose not to take... that inaction then fast becomes the default, sadly.
I find it really depressing that Brits want to sign a petition to force a French company to change what they do in France.
No one is forcing anyone to do anything. You are effectively saying that no one should comment or campaign on anything that happens "abroad"... despite the fact that what happens in other countries directly impacts what happens here. See migratory birds.
kelvin, what johnhe is saying is that a bunch of Brits telling the French what to do in a self-righteous way is not likely to have the effect they want.
Imagine the situation reversed; the Daily Mail and Telegraph would be urging their readers to going out and jump on baby robins, just to show Jonny Foreigner
*edit - Can’t be arsed.
Sad face.
I find it really depressing that Brits want to sign a petition to force a French company to change what they do in France.
For me it rather hinges on a question I don't know the answer to, which is "is this a problem?" Are other countries doing something which is wrong or something which we don't like? Two very different propositions.
If the former then more needs to be done than just signing a petition and then patting yourself on the back for a job well done, you might as well offer hopes and prayers. Anyone on here care sufficiently about the issue to have written to an MEP about it yet?
If the latter, well, Tibetan monks might be appalled that they could walk into a UK Decathlon and buy a fishing rod. How do you think Britain, collectively, would respond to a petition from Tibet calling for them to publicly denounce the maiming / murdering of fish for sport and rebrand the rods as water retrieval systems? Half the country would go take up fishing out of spite.
This is your bullfighting / endangered species argument. We're not objecting to it for reasons of cultural differences, we're objecting because it's objectively wrong to torture animals to death and drive species to extinction. A sternly worded petition to a sporting goods shop isn't going to stop the trafficking of powdered rhino horn.
We’ve literally spent the last four years banging on about “Brussels telling us what to do” and we’re proposing now to tell Spain and France what to do?
You may have I haven't and you point doesn't stand anyway as we are addressing decathlon with the petition.
Presumably you’re also against killing animals and turning them into burgers?
The two are pretty unrelated as far as I can see, maybe you could explain the similarities?
I get that you obviously don't want to sign the petition, that's fine, don't sign, it state why if you must and move on. Not sure why you have to be critical of those whose opinions differ from you.
And as a result, bullfighting was outlawed.
Not really. A form of it was limited in Catalunya by a motion pushed by the separatists in order to distance themselves from something that has been Spanish culture for a very long time.
You may have I haven’t
If you've looked at any of the political threads in the last five years you'll know full well I haven't.
we are addressing decathlon with the petition.
... a French company. Once more with feeling, if France sent a petition to Go Outdoors asking them to change their marketing about something they disapproved of and the red-tops got wind of it what do you think would happen? Do you reckon the Daily Express would run headlines praising it as an excellent notion?
If a brand present in both French and UK markets was promoting something in the UK that French customers thought was putting migratory species at risk, then I'd welcome French citizens petitioning that brand to stop doing so, why wouldn't I?!? This is all really odd.
Not sure why I'd care what the Express wanted me to think about it.
If you’ve looked at any of the political threads in the last five years you’ll know full well I haven’t.
So why post what you did then?
if France sent a petition to Go Outdoors asking them to change their marketing about something
It's a petition to a multi national company who operate within the UK to ask them to not promote the shooting of songbirds. It's nothing like the scenario you have made up in your head.
Do you reckon the Daily Express would run headlines praising it as an excellent notion?
I don't know about you but worrying what the Daily Express might think about any of my actions never happens
So why post what you did then?
Because they won we lost shut up and get over it, remember? Any dissenting voices are to be silenced, this is the new order.
More seriously - this has been an overpowering narrative for years. Assuming it to be a good idea, it's really bad timing politically to be "telling other countries what to do." And yes I know, that's not what were doing, we're asking someone nicely to change their marketing - but that's almost certainly how it will be spun. Which means it might well have the opposite effect to the one intended.
then I’d welcome French citizens petitioning that brand to stop doing so
Yes, but then you are (I assume) a normal, rational and compassionate human being. As the events of the last few years have proven time after time, from the referendum in 2016 to people in the middle of a global pandemic four years later who think the whole thing is a hoax and / or refuse to wear masks as an act of defiance because they don't want to be told what to do, you and I appear to be somewhat in the minority.
Some really simple words and concepts not being understood here.
‘Petition’ is by definition not ‘force’.
A petition is (was?) defined and understood to be an appeal to power. Usually an appeal to that power to change something.
A petition is not ‘force my beliefs on you’.
An appeal to power. A request.
It’s the very opposite of ‘force‘.
It’s a show of the potential/actual strength of feeling regarding some fact/issue and an appeal to act based upon said fact/issue.
If an international retailer doesn’t listen to international appeals then fine. But at least the appeal was made and the concern was more widely promoted which in itself may bear some fruit.
Neither does signing a petition exclude/disallow the signee from other forms of activism regarding this or other concerns, even if you think that it does. Neither if you project those thoughts onto the signee. It’s weird I know. Humans are weird and continually project.
^ These simple facts should clear up most of the objections and misunderstandings. I suppose if the time has come where ‘petition’ is now more commonly (mis) understood to mean ‘force someone to comply’ then I’ll step down and petition appeal* the Dictionaries to make the requisite changes 😑
*How long before ‘make an appeal’ is also defined as a ‘application of intolerant force‘? We seem to be eroding everyday language (and understanding) to black vs white tabloid levels.
you and I appear to be somewhat in the minority.
People signing this petition will very much be in the minority as well. Happy to be one of them. Small actions can add up. Eventually. Hopefully.
^ These simple facts should clear up most of the objections and misunderstandings.
That's been working well for us of late.
Presumably you’re also against killing animals and turning them into burgers?
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Appeal-to-Extremes
/blockquote>I know that deliberately misunderstanding what was said and trying to sound intellectual by linking to 'clever' but mostly misused terms is very popular on this forum but I'm going to explain this one.
You commented that people in Britain have absolutely no business trying to change things which are culturally normal in other countries. Using body parts from endangered species is culturally normal and accepted in many parts of the world.
Also, farming livestock for meat is in no way comparable to illegally killing migrating songbirds for fun.
it's not like we need another reason to boycott them, the fact that their kit is shite compared to SRAM/Hope is enough 😂Shimano is a major manufacturer of fishing gear.
far greater crimes in the frozen food isle in supermarkets,
yes meat free chicken nuggets etc
You commented that people in Britain have absolutely no business trying to change things which are culturally normal in other countries.
No I didn't. Or at least, if I did inadvertently then I later qualified that that wasn't actually what I meant.
You cannot hold different cultures to our own cultural standards. You just can't. The US would be appalled at 18-year olds over here drinking beer. However, as I said before, if their customs and practices are objectively wrong then we absolutely should be trying to exact change.
Also, farming livestock for meat is in no way comparable to [s]il[/s]legally killing migrating songbirds for fun.
FTFY
They're both legal. Morally, totally at odds with each other unless you are a vegan in which case it may amount to the same thing.
See that thing about perspective Cougar is trying to convey? Take a step back and see it through someone elses eyes.
On the plus side at least we now know who killed Cock Robin.
If you walk into a Decathlon in France there will be a huge section with hunting gear including every variety of shotgun cartridge, plus ammunition for hunting rifles. You can also buy live fish for live baiting pike etc.
It all seems popular with the locals, if this petition gets traction in France (which I doubt) they will probably just amend the description and keep selling the shotgun cartridges.
Surley raising concerns on their social media would be more effective than a petition which would get brushed under the carpet