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Not sure I would welcome an ambulance turning up to help me by assaulting the paramedic?
The patient had previously verbally abused members of the ambulance crew, and also urinated in the ambulance, the LAS said
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-london-67560689
My wife is a consultant therapy radiographer on a cancer ward, she had to "red card" a patient recently for abuse and getting physical with staff and refuse to treat her until she could control herself ...she has said that the instances of abuse are really on the rise.
During COVID lockdowns, they had abuse, things thrown at them in car park, the air ambulance pelted with stones and another hospital nearby had razor blades placed under COVID vaccination posters.
Public are absolutely amazing to work with and absolute nightmare.
Scum like that guy are just horrible individuals. When I see the footage earlier this am the rage was pretty high. One of my current roles is to support staff when things like this happen, it’s awful having to listen to it never mind what they went through.
"Not sure I would welcome an ambulance turning up to help me by assaulting the paramedic?"
You probably aren't drunk / high / mentally unstable though are you? Urinating in the ambulance suggests the first at least.
^^^ Is what I was just about to say.
Anyone know why the ambulance was called in the first place? And upon arrival, if the casualty is obviously a threat to them are the medics allowed to say no and leave, or do they ask for help?
In a previous job which involved transporting prisoners to and from courts and to various appointments outside the jail I had a colleague who was a former bus driver. He said he had more hassle from the public drivng his bus than dealing with convicted murderers. Prisoners having the big plus that they were usually sober and not high on drugs.
You probably aren’t drunk / high / mentally unstable though are you? Urinating in the ambulance suggests the first at least.
Double checks OPs identity.....as you were.
You probably aren’t drunk / high / mentally unstable though are you? Urinating in the ambulance suggests the first at least.
The first 2 aren't an excuse. I'm guessing the third one wasn't relevant as he was convicted.
This video has been made public as part of a campaign due to the large increase in abuse staff are having to endure. Shop workers are seeing the same uptick.
No doubt the reasons behind this rise in abuse is complex but it certainly should not be ignored.
Double checks OPs identity…..as you were.
I'm usually only one of those three on any given day. 😉
I always wondered what miracle ingredient NHS staff had in their tea.
The first 2 aren’t an excuse. I’m guessing the third one wasn’t relevant as he was convicted.
But the third one might be an explanation for the first two. They often go hand in hand.
It says there have been 38 successful prosecutions for abuse against ambulance crews in the past year.
Obviously that is just for London but it sounds lower than I might have guessed, assuming that not only the most serious cases are pursed. Hopefully the reason it isn't higher is not because of difficulty in securing convictions.
The money invested in cameras is clearly a very worthwhile investment.
Obviously that is just for London but it sounds lower than I might have guessed, assuming that not only the most serious cases are pursed. Hopefully the reason it isn’t higher is not because of difficulty in securing convictions.
Pretty much that and sometimes they get away with it as their solicitor wins them “I was drunk I can’t recall it and I’m sorry.”
But the third one might be an explanation for the first two. They often go hand in hand.
Absolutely but it's undeniable that most people get drunk as a recreational choice. Even then most will end up home with no incident and just a thumping headache the next day.
Unfortunately it only takes a tiny minority of the thousands out drinking every night to get violent and they, or those they impact, need the help of paramedics that are already pushed to breaking.
No doubt the reasons behind this rise in abuse is complex but it certainly should not be ignored.
I think it all starts in their early years,they get confused over cutlery operation,it's a downhill spiral from there.
Daughter works evening job / holiday job in the supermarket for the better off, in a nice Surrey market town, and has to deal with appalling people regularly.
I'd bet these customers are not drunk / high / mentally ill - they're just over entitled ****s who think they can treat others like their bitches.
Unlikely to compare with the work experiences of London paramedics, I would have thought.
I regularly go to supermarkets, I can't remember the last time I witnessed an altercation.
I was at a house party a few months ago hosted by my mate who is a paramedic. At one point I ended up sitting at the kitchen table with 5 of their colleagues while they talked about the last few days at work. It sounded like a war zone.
My job is a joke compared to what they have to deal with.
I'm not so sure, but I'm making the point that you can't lay the blame on the drunk / high / mentally ill. Some people are just *****
I'd also observe that against the 38 prosecutions (yes, that is just successful prosecutions so for serious cases, etc., and London only) the BRC is reporting 400 incidents against shop workers.
Oh, sorry, that's 38 per year for prosecutions against ambulance crews, but 400 incidents PER DAY against shop workers.
[edit] 32 incidents of abuse or assault on Ambulance crews per day
https://aace.org.uk/vaa/#:~:text=Every%20day%20during%20the%202020,over%20the%20last%20five%20years.
Oh, sorry, that’s 38 per year for prosecutions against ambulance crews
Is that figure for London or nationally?
It's a LAS report so assume that's London only.
The 32/d incidents of assault / abuse is i believe a national figure and more directly comparable to the 400/d of retail workers.
Again, it was not meant to be a 'Oh do pipe down, shop workers have it worse' statement or v/v, and I'm sure there is >>10x the number of shop workers than ambulance staff, so the potential / likelihood is I'm sure higher ("I regularly go to supermarkets, I can’t remember the last time I witnessed an altercation")
It's making the point that you can't just say it's drunk / drugged / mentally ill people. It's just people being *****
It’s making the point that you can’t just say it’s drunk / drugged / mentally ill people. It’s just people being *****
There is obviously an element of arseholes being arseholes.
However, we live in a ridiculously unequal society with real poverty hidden in plain site, add to that cost of living squeeze, a benefit system designed to punish those in need, virtually zero mental health support services etc etc
And then we wonder why lots of people can't seem to cope with everyday life....
It's almost as if we are engineering society to not be able to function properly.
It’s a LAS report so assume that’s London only.
Wow, I’m surprised the number is that high.
Of all the people I know who work for them, I can’t think of a single one who’s been assaulted and had it followed up by police action or prosecution.
Having spent the last year or two interacting with multiple paramedics and ward staff I've seen first hand what they have to put up with. I sort of knew anyway as I've had friends who work in those roles tell me the horror stories but it was still a shock seeing them in real time. Saw patients verbally abuse staff, punch them, throw objects at them and one time a whole family gang up on a doctor for an unknown reason. Definitely a job I could not do. I made a point of always being friendly to everyone I interacted with and each ward team got a hand delivered box of choccies and a profound Thank You afterwards too.
One 'plus' out of this though is that those of us that occasionally ride our bikes and fall off (especially at BPW and end up in Prince Charles Hospital) tend to get preferential treatment as we almost always are apologetic, do exactly as we're told and very grateful for the help. The staff there on handover at the start of a shift apparently try and get the fallen riders to look after as they're pretty much guaranteed a good shift!
Daughter works evening job / holiday job in the supermarket for the better off, in a nice Surrey market town, and has to deal with appalling people regularly.
I’d bet these customers are not drunk / high / mentally ill – they’re just over entitled **** who think they can treat others like their bitches.
I've always said that everyone should have to do a few weeks of Work Experience in a regular shop/bar/food place (not a posh one, something like Tesco/Wetherspoons/McDonald's), that would put a stop to a lot of this behaviour. When people know what it's like to do a job interacting with the public they then treat people doing that job with much more respect.
The 32/d incidents of assault / abuse is i believe a national figure and more directly comparable to the 400/d of retail workers.
I don't think it is comparable in any way. For a start a lot more people go inside a supermarket per day than go inside an ambulance.
Yes some people are self-entitled arseholes, but this story is specifically about paramedics and how CCTV fitted to all London ambulances is helping to secure convictions.
I urinated in the back of an ambulance
that was mid 2022, but in a wee bottle; i wasn't drunk, and had been flat out on the tarmac for 90 minutes while being assessed after being ****ted by some c*nt in a mini
Then spent 24 hours in a very busy A&E.
What astonished me was in all of that, the paramedics (3 of them on site and two in the ambulance) and the staff in A&E were so cheerful, tolerant, friendly and caring despite the chaos/overlaod they seemed to be working in.
But ultimately the challenge is underinvestment due to austerity - A&E was full of old people who had no care system to look after them, confused alzheimer patients with no understanding where they were, alkies, self-medicating and obviously frequent flyers, turning up for a lie down and some TLC, druggies etc.
Most of them who shouldn't have been in A&E, but becuase the system in the UK is failing us (thanks 13 years of Tories) the ambulance service and police service and A&E are the safety net trying to keep people safe and they are no longer equiped to do that job.
I think it all starts in their early years,they get confused over cutlery operation,it’s a downhill spiral from there.
That would explain why fork crime is on the rise.
Tines are hard I suppose.
It's the candles you need to worry about
As for susepic's post,
Having had the misfortune to spend some time in hospital recently, I never saw any violence personally but the rest of it is spot on. The whole "patients on trolleys in corridors" thing we saw on TV during Covid hasn't gone away, it's the new normal. There's numbers down the walls. They can't move patients out of A&E because there's no corridor space left, let alone a ward or a bed. It's absolutely horrendous and it's going to cost lives.
<It’s absolutely horrendous and it’s costing lives.>
FTFY Cougar - but spot on
"Long waits in A&E departments may have caused around 30,000 ‘excess deaths’ last year, according to new estimates."
The public are arseholes. I should know, I'm one of them.
I am not sure I would trust the "38 prosecutions for assaults on paramedics" figure (at least, not to say there were only 38 in London). Squeezing data out of the criminal justice system is a nightmare.
sometimes they get away with it as their solicitor wins them “I was drunk I can’t recall it and I’m sorry.”
No.
I don’t think it is comparable in any way.
Directly comparable means you can compare them directly. Without needing to extrapolate for how many convictions equate to however many incidents, or how a London number extrapolates to a national one. You can directly compare the two because they are exactly the same unit - incidents per day on a national basis. There's order of magnitude 10x more.
For a start a lot more people go inside a supermarket per day than go inside an ambulance.
I know. Or as I put it there are >>10x (many more than 10x the number of retail workers)
Yes some people are self-entitled arseholes, but this story is specifically about paramedics and how CCTV fitted to all London ambulances is helping to secure convictions.
And I started the comparison (and god knows I wish I hadn't) to point out that you can't assume that the issue is down to drink and drugs and mental illness, and it isn't only emergency workers that get treated badly by the public.
Or, as the thread title says:
dealing-with-the-public-a-thankless-task-on-occasion
And with that I'm out.
I'm currently doing some work with an ED, I've also shadowed a few shifts to understand their environment.
This has included some of the AS staff being verbally and physically assaulted. There was one tech in to be treated for wounds sustained from a 'patient'; the cops are pretty proactive and present but it still happens and leaves staff in a bit of a state.
The stories they've retold and the things I've witnessed have been eye-raising and this is coming from someone who is used to some of the more extreme ends of aggression and violence.
It calls a lot of inherently good people to question their purpose, and on some occasions to walk away, which is the biggest tragedy.
It's why I could never do business in a customer facing role, running a shop, pub, whatever, I'd end up barring probably 50% of customers and punching propably 10% of them. I'd be out of business in a week.
Sad sign of the times, no one should have to put up with rudeness, nevermind flat out abuse.
mattyfez
Full Member
It’s why I could never do business in a customer facing role,
The thing is, most people are genuinely lovely to deal with. I worked in retail for a long time in my 20's and some of the customers almost became friends. Just occasionally though... Jesus. It takes just one nasty piece of work to spoil a whole week in the job.
One bloke pulled a screwdriver on me and threatened to stab me, another one drove a car at me in the carpark. These were both after catching them stealing. It's always been there but I think it's far more widespread now. It was pretty rare back then, not now.
A tiny little co-op near me had a guy in threatening a young girl there with an axe. She never went back into that place after that and I dont blame her. They have a bouncer (well, security) at the door sometimes. This is a co-op in a smallish village for goodness sakes.
A tiny little co-op near me had a guy in threatening a young girl there with an axe. She never went back into that place after that and I dont blame her. They have a bouncer (well, security) at the door sometimes. This is a co-op in a smallish village for goodness sakes.
I don't work in Leeds any more, but the McDonalds in the city center had bouncers on the door after a certain time in the evening.
I mean... what...the...
I don’t work in Leeds any more, but the McDonalds in the city center had bouncers on the door after a certain time in the evening.
I mean… what…the…
That's pretty common down this way in my little bit of Kent unfortunately. I suspect many big town Maccy's have them now?
Securityguards in my local sainsburys and Aldi
It’s why I could never do business in a customer facing role, running a shop, pub, whatever, I’d end up barring probably 50% of customers and punching propably 10% of them. I’d be out of business in a week.
I often think that the lives of service people would be improved immeasurably if they had a quota of customers that they were allowed to just tell to **** the **** off. It doesn't have to be high, one a week would do.
As regular readers will know, I've worked in a tech support helpdesk dealing with the general public. Less well known perhaps is I had a student job in a bowling alley for a year, dealing face-to-face with the great unwashed. From both of these experiences I've learned that as poopscoop says, most people are lovely. Some have had a bad experience and are understandably vexed. And some are simply just c**ts.
Daughter works evening job / holiday job in the supermarket for the better off, in a nice Surrey market town, and has to deal with appalling people regularly.<br /><br />
I don’t doubt it, although I’ve been lucky and seldom seen really bad behaviour by customers. I was waiting to be served in Wilco’s some time back and the young woman in front of me was very abrupt and rude to the member of staff serving her, no please, thank you, and she just stomped off out of the shop. I looked at the staff member and all I could say was “some people!”, she just shrugged and sighed deeply.
There were a few examples of snotty behaviour by drivers coming to either drop off or pick up cars, for a variety of reasons, often beyond our control, when I was working in the motor industry, which didn’t get them very far, and could, and sometimes did result in the driver being escorted off the site, reported and banned from ever coming back to our site. Which was easy for us to do, because everyone who came on site had to go through security and give their names; sadly not really an option in the average retail business.
Easier to do in a pub, though, and I’ve seen it happen - the two individuals tried to provoke me into reacting but I just rolled my eyes and went and sat down with my mate in the front of the pub, and a few minutes later there were raised voices, two bodies came hurtling over the divider between the bar and the seated area we were sat in, crashing on top of a table a couple were sat at, bottles and glasses going everywhere, women screaming in shock! The two responsible weren’t drunk, and they weren’t young oiks, they were two middle aged blokes, who clearly, and for no reason I could understand, wanted to provoke some random person into a fight.
I’m afraid I just don’t understand why people behave like that; everyone has off days, I know I do, but the one thing I will never do, and have never ever done, is get sniffy with someone serving me - it costs nothing to be nice, and even if my day is going to hell in a hand cart, why should I make someone else’s day as bad; I just can’t do it. 🤷🏼
two middle aged blokes, who clearly, and for no reason I could understand, wanted to provoke some random person into a fight.
I saw this once at the Download festival. One lad going round harassing everyone, spoiling for a random scrap. (All other things aside, what kind of mentalist do you have to be to pick a fight at Download?) Two big lads near me went, "right, we're not having this" and went to intercept. I thought, oh dear. They grabbed him, bundled him to the floor, and then sat on him till he calmed the hell down. 😁
It's one reason I prefer to drink in rock/biker pubs. They tend to be somewhat self-policing.
As much as I complain about the price of beer... one pub in my town just made it so expensive that it mostly keeps the 'riff-raff' out.
It might be an extra 2 quid a pint, but it's worth it for a quiet drink.
As an 18 year old, I had to stand on the door of the country's largest Sainburys, a few days before Christmas, and explain to people that they couldn't come in because the store was too full ("have one of these chocolates and go and join the queue over there"). The abuse I got was extraordinary. Obviously it's not a competition, but I think it's fair to say that anyone who works in retail recognizes the issue.
One thing that's clear is that the stress of the situation greatly increases the chances of somebody acting like a bellend.
In my Job I used to spend a lot of time in Hospitals, meeting staff and reviewing research data. Having lost a parent by that point, I was acutely aware that in hospitals there are an awful lot of stressed/upset/angry people around. I'd often remind myself when somebody clattered into me with a wheelchair, or coughed directly at me in a lift, that they may have just received the worst news of their life, or maybe had to wait for ages for a precious parking spot to take their mum in for their weekly chemo session.
With the state of the NHS (and all public services probably) the "temperature" of all these environments is going to increase. If you've been waiting 3 hours for an ambulance while your loved one is on the floor in agony - when they do get there, you might be a bit terse. Expand that to thousands of daily interactions, some of which are with people a lot less able to regulate their emotions than you - and the number of abuse incidents is inevitably going to rise.
It's easy to say that people shouldn't be ****s, and of course they shouldn't - but the way in which people are being squeezed at the moment, is inevitably going to result in a rise in this sort of thing. Not an excuse obviously - but it's certainly a big contributing factor that shouldn't be ignored.
I have a friend who is a paramedic and he’s been punched, bitten, stabbed with a needle and spat on. Genuinely don’t know how he does it. I’d be sacked and in prison!
I worked in retail for a couple of years and think everyone should. I go out of my way to be polite and accommodating when interacting with anyone public facing. Genuinely makes me sad and angry when I see those ‘abuse will not be tolerated’ signs. The fact they’re even needed is horrendous.
When I worked in retail I had a colleague who would simply smile at abusive people whilst having his arms folded behind his back. They’d either calm down, deflating like a balloon or get so vexed they’d walk away flapping their arms about. I’m blessed with an amazing dead eyed ten yard stare. So I’d put that to good use and watch angry and unreasonable people start to look concerned for their personal safety.
.
I’ve seen the petrol station cashiers in a local Sainsbury’s with body worn video cameras as standard uniform now. I work for Forestry England and we’ve had to recently update and publish our position statement on how we expect people to behave towards our staff after lots of nasty behaviours directed at people who are just doing their jobs.
I fear the general population are just getting angrier...
As a GP, we're facing WAAAY more complaints from patients. I'd say 5% are them are foe genuine errors (missed prescriptions etc), the other 95% are simply "i'm not getting my way, in the timeframe I want, so will complain"..
It's getting annoying now.<br /><br />DrP
Pretty much that and sometimes they get away with it as their solicitor wins them “I was drunk I can’t recall it and I’m sorry.”<br /><br />
drac - you are probably perpetuating a myth there! That is a 100% not a defence. It might be offered in “mitigation” but it will generally not be seen a mitigating. Defence lawyers have a duty to put their clients version of events before the court even if they know it won’t help the client. They also play a useful role in the whole process by making sure the CPS do their shit properly and that when a client “was too pissed to remember” that they help them understand the prospects of winning. Defence solicitors have to talk to these people too - they know who are troubled souls and who are just trouble.<br /><br />
there may be occasions when a prosecutor is telling you that they’ve accepted a Not Guilty for this for that sort of reason. It’s bullshit - what they mean is “we didn’t have the evidence in order / we forgot to cite a witness / the cctv wouldn’t play / they offered to plead guilty to another charge if we dropped this / we had too many cases planned for court and I needed to get home to pick up the kids”.
They may also accept an out of court “restitution” which in some cases might be a letter of apology although I’d be surprised if it was for offences against emergency workers that merited prosecution in the first place. There’s not enough space to debate the pro’s and con’s of that here - but bear in mind that the court system is so broken (because it’s politically good to increase nhs budgets, but politically good to slash legal aid and court budgets!) that if it goes to trial it might be 2 years after the incident, your ambulance crew will spend all day sitting in a court room waiting to give evidence, possibly for the case to be rescheduled and have to come back and do it again a few months later.
One ‘plus’ out of this though is that those of us that occasionally ride our bikes and fall off (especially at BPW and end up in Prince Charles Hospital) tend to get preferential treatment as we almost always are apologetic, do exactly as we’re told and very grateful for the help.
Unfortunately that has not been my experience at Abergavenny A&E. A friend of mine had significant major injuries after coming off his bike at the Black Mountains Cycle centre. Rather than wait for an ambulance I put him in the car and took him to A&E directly.
The service that we got at the hospital was piss poor and dismissive, despite (or even because of) me saying that I was a doctor and explaining exactly why I was concerned about him. I was polite and respectful at all times, as I've been on the receiving end of bad patient behaviour. I was, however insistent, and they did not like this.
They wouldn't put him on a trolley, despite me asking them to do so. When the triage nurse came out to call him in to assess him, she was insistent that he walk across the waiting room, and dismissed me when I said he couldn't walk. It was only when the other people waiting had told her that he'd gone grey and slumped in the chair that she deigned to get him a trolley. She then triaged him incorrectly, and he spent far too long waiting for the investigations that should have happened within an hour.
He ended up spending 12 days in hospital. Fortunately he didn't have an enduring brain injury, and to be fair the function wasn't that great before the injury, but the experience of knowing that something was significantly wrong with him and yet being ignored because reasons gave me a lot of empathy for those who do kick off.
[Avoids penning analogy) Looks like the paramedic placed their weight against an unsecured door which then opened and she fell out.
Unfortunately that has not been my experience at Abergavenny A&E.
When was this as Neville Hall hasn't had a fully functioning A&E for a number of years. It was winding down since 2019, was running on skeleton staff from 2020 and closed in 2021 to now be just a Minor Injuries unit and even that is in danger of closing now. The whole hospital was only ever meant to be a small regional hospital (one up from a Cottage hospital) so never has had the full facilities that the classification suggested. Locals with complex or ongoing needs were always transferred to the Royal Gwent, Prince Charles or Hereford and now go to The Grange, Hereford or The Heath in Cardiff.
It was in 2019.
Genuinely makes me sad and angry when I see those ‘abuse will not be tolerated’ signs. The fact they’re even needed is horrendous.
we’ve had to recently update and publish our position statement on how we expect people to behave towards our staff
Do they make any difference?
Like, do people think "right, I'm going to kick off" and then see the signs and change their mind? Do shoplifters only target shops which don't have "shoplifters will be prosecuted" signs on display?
Do they make any difference?
Sometimes. Some people, when you make them aware that it’s become abuse, do wind their necks in.
It was in 2019.
Most likely after they had been told of the changes and a lot of the staff had left. They were told right at the end of 2018 and a lot of the decent staff moved rapidly. Not excusing it at all but it's a possible reason behind your experience.
Do they make any difference?
Like, do people think “right, I’m going to kick off” and then see the signs and change their mind? Do shoplifters only target shops which don’t have “shoplifters will be prosecuted” signs on display?
They work on the regular annoyed customers, ones who are having a bad day etc, but the properly angry and unpredictable ones don't take any notice.
@reluctantjumper I’m quite glad to hear it closed, because by that stage it was barely fit for purpose.
My mate who had a history of a high energy head trauma, significant (4 hours plus) retrograde amnesia and ongoing anterograde amnesia waited 8 hours for a CT scan. In minors on a trolley after he’d had a precipitous fall in blood pressure in the waiting room.
And I’d had to kick off to get him on a trolley.
****ing amateurs.