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I'm no fan of the Tories, but I reckon Cameron has outsmarted a lot of other politicians. When he couldn't win, he ducked the bullet.
Bailing out is an example.
Who knows, he may be back.
epicyclo - MemberI'm no fan of the Tories, but I reckon Cameron has outsmarted a lot of other politicians. When he couldn't win, he ducked the bullet. Bailing out is an example
It's important to bear in mind that being a good politician doesn't make you a good PM.
And as for dodging the brexit bullet... he fired it, then jumped out of the way to let it hit someone else- or rather everyone else. There's nothing commendable in that.
Cameron's greatest legacy will probably turn out to be 15-20 years
No, it will be brexit of course. It would have been the first Tory PM in 20 years to return a majority govt. But then less than a year and a half later he's resigned. This is his legacy
Legacy? He made such a massive error that no-one really has any idea how to fix it, that's how badly he messed up. He's screwed up the UK for a generation, maybe more.
That's some legacy.
Legacy? He made such a massive error that no-one really has any idea how to fix it, that's how badly he messed up. He's screwed up the UK for a generation, maybe more.
Still having problems getting your head round that 'democracy' thing Ben?
Still having problems getting your head round that 'democracy' thing Ben?
Okay, I'll rephrase:
He allowed racists, idiots and the terminally deluded to screw up the UK for a generation, maybe more.
Oh, and we live in a representative democracy, not a direct democracy. The point of a representative democracy is you vote in people you trust to make hard decisions, even if you don't personally agree with all those decisions, you vote in people who you hope will make the best decisions for the country.
If we had direct democracy for everything, we'd pay no taxes and have the death penalty.
I reckon one legacy is that he somehow convinced the 'markets' that we're a safe bet and could continue to lend us vast amounts without actually getting anywhere near to balancing the books. Austerity is just a con. Look at the numbers.
And no I'm not a Tory.
Oh, and we live in a representative democracy, not a direct democracy. The point of a representative democracy is you vote in people you trust to make hard decisions, even if you don't personally agree with all those decisions, you vote in people who you hope will make the best decisions for the country.
Strange, I recall you being all for direct democracy on constitutional issues up until 18th September 2014 - what could possibly have led to this Damascene conversion I wonder?
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Northwind - Member
It's important to bear in mind that being a good politician doesn't make you a good PM.And as for dodging the brexit bullet... he fired it, then jumped out of the way to let it hit someone else- or rather everyone else. There's nothing commendable in that.
I agree. I don't think he was commendable in any way. What Ben said...
He allowed racists, idiots and the terminally deluded to screw up the UK for a generation, maybe more.
However he was like a man crossing a crocodile infested river by jumping from log to log. He got out with barely getting his feet wet.
His big mistake was thinking that the virulently racist MSM that he was happy to see work against Scotland's independence would work for the UK's interests instead of that of its foreign owners.
If there's anything to be learned from this debacle it is that media ownership should be brought onshore and be less monolithic.
Another case, of (all) political careers ending in failure.
Hard to know how to judge him as almost impossible to define what he stood for.
But is PMship will ultimately be defined by Brexit - not for the reasons given above as those were beyond his control - but for the opportunity lost. Forget the rhetoric about reforming Europe (no really), the actual (abeit less ambitious) deal that he struck was about a good a scenario for engaging with one of the worlds largest economiz zone as was possible to get.
The fact that this has been thrown away on the basis of xenophobia and racism to be replaced by a long period of uncertainty and wasted opportunity to ultimately arrive at pretty much the same place is a mark of breathtaking folly.
The extent to which this is Dave's fault is open to debate.
Legacy? He made such a massive error that no-one really has any idea how to fix it, that's how badly he messed up. He's screwed up the UK for a generation, maybe more.
Imagine what would have happened if yS had won - forget generations!!!
Hmm Legacy well Cameron was clear about gay marriage and he made some positive statements about disabled rights. However these statements turned out to be utterly empty gestures. The bedroom tax came in on his watch and his government cut benefits and services for disabled people savagely. Inequality has grown under his government in his own words he held nothing back from the disasterous remain campaign . So since I am feeling generous I will give him 2/10
That is a good analogy up the point about him succesfully getting out - we're talking about Dave the politician, not Dave the person.However he was like a man crossing a crocodile infested river by jumping from log to log. He got out with barely getting his feet wet.
He did indeed skate his way across the political river full of crocs, firefighting, seat of the pants, last minute revision style. Made it to the last log, within touching distance of the safety of the riverbank, and decides to stop, lower his trousers and show his backside to us all. At which point he slips and falls in to be dismembered limb from limb. Bodyparts salvaged and buried in a brexit-shaped coffin at a crossroads outside of town.
Inequality has grown under his government
Except that it hasn't - but never mind, this is the post-truth politics era after all.
So since I am feeling generous I will give him 2/10
Compared with 1/10 for (mis) using facts (sic) to make a point !!
Strange, I recall you being all for direct democracy on constitutional issues up until 18th September 2014 - what could possibly have led to this Damascene conversion I wonder?
Actually, I'd be fine with the Scottish parliament declaring independence without another referendum - it worked for Estonia among others. The people of Scotland have elected a pro-independence majority, that's a good enough mandate for me.
The people of Scotland have elected a pro-independence majority, that's a good enough mandate for me.
Just a blatant contradiction of the democratic principle though Ben. Ends.....means.....
Not really - you either have a representative democracy or a direct democracy. A representative democracy which then asks the people about the really hard decisions is abdicating responsibility.
But I accept others disagree with that view, so I'm looking forward to Indyref2 😉
Have a look at the Soviet states who did hold independence referenda to see what a real mandate looks like, Ben.bencooper - MemberStrange, I recall you being all for direct democracy on constitutional issues up until 18th September 2014 - what could possibly have led to this Damascene conversion I wonder?
Actually, I'd be fine with the Scottish parliament declaring independence without another referendum - it worked for Estonia among others. The people of Scotland have elected a pro-independence majority, that's a good enough mandate for me.
so I'm looking forward to Indyref2
Dont hold your breath - the last one was for a generation/lifetime! 😉
And its even worse this time - in her desperation, dear Nicola is prepared to tie you into the folly of the single currency. You guys really do deserve better.
How on earth are we back onto Scottish Independence ? Salmond said it was a once in a lifetime vote and he was totally correct. UDI worked out for Zimbabwe, well sort of.
@ben younreally should be greatful to Cameron as he granted Scotland a Referendum, something no other PM would have done nor will another in the future. You had a 2 year campaign and you couldn't win the argument
And its even worse this time - in her desperation, dear Nicola is prepared to tie you into the folly of the single currency. You guys really do deserve better.
As far as I know, the currency thing is still up in the air - Sterling, Euro or Scottish Pound. But whatever, we definitely do deserve better than what we've got, I completely agree on that...
...if by that you mean being tied to an increasingly insular England with Tories in power for the forseeable future and the opposition in meltdown.
How on earth are we back onto Scottish Independence ?
I have a special talent that way.
Sterling: No control over interest rates / monetary policy, can't have that and be in the EU
Euro: No control over interest rates / monetary policy together with a huge liability for economically failed Southern Europe
Scottish Pound: Cant't have that and be in the EU, likely to be highly volatile and linked to oil price, will require expensive setup of a central bank. Questionable as to whether Scotland would have any commercial banks at all ?
I have a special talent that way
We can't argue with that as we are discussing it again 😳
Sterling: No control over interest rates / monetary policy
Like at the moment, then.
Euro: No control over interest rates / monetary policy together with a huge liability for economically failed Southern Europe
Some control, which seems to work okay for other EU countries.
Scottish Pound: Cant't have that and be in the EU
Tell that to the Swedish. Many smaller countries than Scotland have their own currency.
Jamba, I'm sure Scotland would manage without Westminster's guiding hand, just like all the other countries that have become independent from the British Empire.
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Our only problem may be our increasingly rightwing warmongering neighbour to the south, but I'm sure the wall they'll build to stop refugees fleeing North will sort that. 🙂
There are more **** ups on that map than success stories. Remind me how life is for someone in Burma, Zimbabwe, Egypt or Kuwait?
Even Cyprus has been invaded since going independent, oh and still has a big UK military presence on it, which sets a nice precedent for Trident staying in Scotland.
There are more **** ups on that map than success stories. Remind me how life is for someone in Burma, Zimbabwe, Egypt or Kuwait?
And do you think Scotland is more like Zimbabwe or New Zealand?
Scottish Pound: Cant't have that and be in the EU, likely to be highly volatile and linked to oil price, will require expensive setup of a central bank. Questionable as to whether Scotland would have any commercial banks at all ?
Is that an actual fact or another Jamba fact
Would you like a list of all the current EU members who aren't in the Eurozone?
Jambalaya -
Just curious as to why you'd think I'd even bother to reply ?
My guess is a deep rooted inferiority complex.
Just got to figure out now if it's Jambaliar, Jambatroll or Jambadeluded.
My guess is some aspects of all three.
enters - sorry I thought this was a CMD thread - leaves to find the correct one 😉
Nats are infiltrating everywhere 😉
If Yes had won Cameron would have been a hero in Scotland (begrudingly)
@ben UK interest rate and monetary policy is set for the benefit of the whole country, 10% of whom are Scots. 5m Scots will have no voice at all amongst 500m EU population. There must be a decent chance an iS would have to be a net contributer to the EU (and no Barnet formula payments either of course), they are going to have to make up the £10bn / €12bn shortfall after we leave
And do you think Scotland is more like Zimbabwe or New Zealand?
Neither.
It should be easy. Just apply the Gove/Johnson mentality for Scottish Independence. It will mean that Scotland can be independent, have full control of the currency, get whatever they want from rUK as they buy a lot more than they sell so rUK will be desperate for a deal and roll over, give out free unicorns and depose the queen and replace her with a haggis.
And give a trillion pooonds to the Scottish NHS. Anything else is 'Project Fear' remember?
SAMANTHA Cameron is struggling to reassure her husband that he did a great job and everyone does not hate him.After quitting as an MP, David Cameron lay with his head in his wife’s lap and asked her what she thought his greatest achievements were.
Samantha Cameron said: “Um, wow. There’s almost too much. Loads of things. Loads and loads.”
David Cameron said: “Try to be a bit more specific. I know deep down that I’m great but sometimes I think that almost everyone else in the country reckons I am a giant arse.
“Or, worse, that they see me as indistinguishable from hundreds of other ruddy-cheeked alpha male toffs and thus no more memorable than a mid-morning packet of crisps.
“So let’s focus on the positives. What went really well?”
Samantha Cameron replied: “Um. Gosh I don’t know, there’s such a choice, it’s like trying to name your favourite chocolate in a box of Roses.”
David Cameron said: “That’s easy, it’s the toffees. We both know I like the toffees and you like the swirly hazelnut ones.
“I properly ****ed it up didn’t I?
TBF I think the recent trend for former PMs to make a fairly swift exit is the right way, regardless of party colour. In no other industry does the top man (and it's usually a man), when they lose their post, go back to a more junior role in the same organisation.The alternative is to hang around bitterly, peering over the shoulder of your successor and make an embarassment of yourself (like what Edward Heath did throughout Margaret Thatcher's prime ministership). Or, I suppose, keep taking the salary while not doing any of the work expected of an MP (G. Brown).
This. In practical terms his options were to be an absentee MP (like Brown) or leave.
I'm not critical of Brown's choice to stay but I think the 'go' option is better.
Some very hard things being said about his role in the collapse of Libya today.
His ex colleagues really sticking the knife in.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/13/david-camerons-ill-conceived-libya-war-led-to-rise-of-islamic-st/
The heir to Blair and defence sec Fox heavily criticised, even blaming them for the rise of I.S. !
No wonder he's quit, as Theresa May goes about dismantling and reversing many of his policies, his 'legacy' us being dismantled
And so they should. Libya was a bad mistake and we almost did the same in Syria (are doing the same?)
But his legacy? Before you dismantle it, you have to define it. What was the Cameron legacy? How do you define him and his leadership - other than achieved power?
He did a good job of stitching up the Lib Dems.
He was able to claim to be a modernising Tory, whilst doing all the things that Torys do best, fuel the housing market, attack the welfare state, butter up pensioners, close youth centres, sure start centres- biggest cuts to council funding ever!
privatise the post office, cut taxes for the rich, close libraries,t opdown reorganise the NHS, sign more PPI deals than nu labour! increased NHS dependency on EU and foreign staff, open up the NHS to even more privatisation, push up hospital waiting times, failed utterly on press regulation, alienated police, doctors, nurses, teachers, increase the size of the house of lords....
So in those terms he did quite well
He and George did have their hands tied a bit by the financial crash, but they used it as a great pretext for pushing through policy, without addressing the structural reforms the country really needs
Ultimately he was undone because you can't be everyone's hero, talking tough on immigration, whilst keeping business happy with EU workers allowed demagogue Farige a free hand to convince people it was Brussels not Westminster that was eroding their standard of living
But surely his greatest legacy- according to the Tory dominated Foreign Affairs Select Committee is helping to create Islamic State
As a Tory voter I was never impressed with Cameron. A good summing up on his failings from kimbers IMO.
Kimbers sums it up.
It's obvious that Cameron is regarded by the 1922 Committee as an embarrassment. It's still too early for a full post mortem of the EU Referendum, but it's immediately apparent that he opted for a referendum to quell the Eurosceptic wing of the party and managed to turn an internal party dispute that could and should have been controlled by party whips into a full blown crisis which will preoccupy the efforts of government for the remainder of this parliament.
In his resignation speech (as an MP) he observed "I'm only forty-nine". He's slowly beginning to realise that he'll be carrying an albatross around his neck for the rest of his life, he'll be remembered with the same fondness as Chamberlain and Eden.
So David Cameron's government bear significant responsibility for the rise of 'The so called' Islamic State?
Libya has little to do with ISIL, it's much more Syria and Iraq ie the Levant. The clue is in the name.
It's fair to say the majority of the "Arab Spring" revolutions have turned out for the worse. Libya was as much about France and the US as it was the UK and without the intervention there wouod have been a much more prolonged and very bloody civil war like in Syria. I think the alternative to no action was worse
PJM Cameron is a democrat, he waited for Parliamentary approval before taking military action and gave Scotland their Referendum. The EU was a natural extension, I am sure there was some politics to encourage people to vote Tory in 2015 as Referendum was based upon a Tory majority.