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**How’s her friend doing grades wise? Might it be a case of friend going and trying to lessen the impact of that on your daughter? So unfortunately the distress is an unfortunate outcome of someone trying to do the right thing.**
Historically similar to my daughter I believe (but the whole class is very similar in level, with just a couple that regularly get almost perfect scores). As I have said, her own teacher doesn't agree with the decision so I feel the HoD and the HoY will have just worked out something that socially solved an issue, rather than it being based on ability. And, again, as I have said before, why on earth was this never flagged so we could have supported her more - she could have studied with her sister (who is in Set 2 and studying most of the same stuff most of the time) during her additional maths tutoring sessions but we never thought there was a need as she's always done well so we have let her get on with other school work/TikTok or whatever. Just really crap communication from them all around.
*On a parallel thread is a parent saying their son is being blocked from moving up to the top set by a girl who performed worse than him in a test.*
But where does it end? If, in the next test, she is the 29th best, does she get moved back up again? There should be stability now they are in their GCSE phase of school and, had we been told she was slipping behind (which she isn't as she's never scored below an A grade) then we could have supported her more. I could get it if she was scoring 5s or 6s, but she isn't and never has done (since her first CAT in yr 7, her lowest grade remains a 7).
"But where does it end? If, in the next test, she is the 29th best, does she get moved back up again?"
Possibly but it would be at set times of the year, I have set dates where we look at how the cohort are performing and make decisions on how we see them progressing. This is a conversation though and at various points includes pastoral, class teacher, pupils and parents.
I was moved down then back up when I was at that stage. That annoyed my maths teacher father massively.
*This is a conversation though and at various points includes pastoral, class teacher, pupils and parents.*
And that's the rub - there has been no communication, just my daughter being told to stay back at the end of class (between lessons) for a very brief word from her teacher. I really don't think it has been well-handled.
It seems wrong to me to disadvantage one kid so another can move up. Also seems weird to move sets partway thru the year
Have you spoken to her friends parents? - the girls probably want to end up in the same class whichever that turns out to be.
You could always accept the change and use it to motivate her to prove her ability.
I moved down from top set to 2nd set when I was about your daughter's age. Was then moved back up again a couple of terms later. Maybe it was needed - maybe it wasn't - I can't remember now but it didn't do me any harm as I still got an A at GCSE maths and went on to do A-level and got a B but did find my maths ceiling was 2nd year A-level when it became a foreign language and I hadn't got a clue. It also took A-level maths for me to understand GCSE Physics.
The school will be balancing academic and pastoral / social issues as well - it's not just based on the cat score.
I have a twin brother, when we went to secondary school he got put in the higher set for the some subjects like English and Maths although I was considered the cleverer of the two. In hindsight, whoever assigned/streamed students probably got our names mixed up. Anyway, one of us finished up with Honours and Masters degrees and had a relatively successful career and the other didn’t.
It seems wrong to me to disadvantage one kid so another can move up.
You're assuming that being moved down is a disadvantage. The thread already includes arguments as to why it might not be.
My daughter was moved down from top set in Y8 and tells me she prefers where she is now. Teacher is more capable and happy to take time on extra explanations when things aren't clear for her. I would not assume there is less opportunity in the lower set for quality learning.
So you disadvantage another by keeping them down when they are higher performing?
Move the other kid uo without moving anyone down.
Tj there are limits on class size, certainly in Scotland you should not teach more than that limit.
Move the other kid uo without moving anyone down.
You're still assuming a higher set is an advantage...
I wrote a long reply but ST reloaded! Key points:
she may thrive better in the other class. Clearly something didn’t resonate with the existing arrangement on the recent topic - so a change may help.
teachers would get more teaching done if they spend less time stroking parents egos.
Parent perception of performance issues and teachers is different.
im sceptical that “sitting in with her sister” would have been the magic bullet you think it would - the reason tutoring works is one to one attention at exactly the pace and understanding of the pupil. BUT was it a surprise that she did poorly in this latest test? Because either she’s not asking for help or she’s not sharing that she’s struggling with you (or both). GCSE maths with a pupil who wants to learn, one specific topic and a parent who cares - probably doesn’t even need a tutor; BBC Bitesize, YouTube, some practice and if you get stuck post on STW.
HOD is being pestered by other parents wanting their kid in in the higher class, resist. Ask for all the marks of other kids in both classes and call sex discrimination and favouritism if they won't hand them over.
They cannot hand over other kids data. That would be wrong
As I have said, her own teacher doesn’t agree with the decision so I feel the HoD and the HoY will have just worked out something that socially solved an issue, rather than it being based on ability.
I wouldn’t put much credence in the teachers opinion as they aren’t making the decision and reaching for a conspiracy as the logical reason for dropping a form
Usually a dip in performance has a reason so have you spoken to your daughter to find out if something is bothering them or other reason they aren’t performing as well?
In that case they can't justify moving her down, TJ. No objective criteria = discrimination.
It'll come down to which parents provide the best arguments or who seem most capable of causing the most professional damage to the HOD. Who should be overridden rather than negotiated with. Head of school and board of governers first with a bunch of socialogical mumbo jumbo that will baffle their brains and convince them that it's better to leave things as they are rather than punitive, demolarising, distressing treatment of your daughter, OP.
Why's it not objective? They can have the data and make an objective decision, without having to hand that data over to anyone else.
Head of school and board of governers first with a bunch of socialogical mumbo jumbo that will baffle their brains and convince them that it’s better to leave things as they are rather than punitive, demolarising, distressing treatment of your daughter, OP.
No, talk to the teacher and HoD first, see if there's a logical and justifiable reason. If (IF) no satisfactory answers then consider escalating. A quiet word about the handling without screaming about the actual decision would probably be my approach.
demolarising treatment
It's GCSE maths, not dentistry?
Back to the OP
I’m a career physics teacher. But now in a college college so no setting
I would expect setting to be objective. I’d expect there to be say a spread sheet that shows your daughter has dropped out of the top set on objective criteria. I don’t think the head of year would be envolved.
It would be useful to know how many sets there are. It could be 7 sets. In a good catchment sets 1 & 2 could both be working towards 7,8 & 9 grades.
At her school what is a “CATS”? My son did a CAT test before starting gcse. This is a an intelligence test. It was used for setting. But you wouldn’t expect another CAT. It’s worth noting that most my sons CAT got the setting spectacularly wrong in one subject. But schools all have their own systems.
The school should keep you informed about your daughter’s progress. However i don’t think that would include warnings about set changes. These are not a punishment.
It would be useful to know what the class teacher thinks. “I wish you weren’t leaving my class” is not the same as “you are not the lowest achieving student in this group”
Remember that the school is equally responsible to all students. I hope you have a productive meeting with the HOD and that your daughter does well in gcse maths
@tjagain you’ve often said that teacher stress is caused by teachers not saying no. I respect that.
But here you say the solution is just to make the top set bigger.
🤦♀️
@ampthill – The school still refer to whatever testing it is that they do as 'CATs' (Common Assessment Tasks) – they get tested three times a year in an exam setting and Teacher Expected (TE) marks twice (they don't do it in the first term in each year for some reason – probably letting the class settle) in the following way (with 1 being the lowest grade and 9 being the highest. A score of 7 is the equivalent to an A pass)
The following are her scores...
Statistical Target 7 (expected grade based on the individual student's previous grades)
CAT Year 10 Autumn 8 (higher than expected so over-achieving)
CAT Year 10 Spring 7 (so she achieved exactly as expected which was why she was placed in the set in the first place)
TE - Year 10 Spring 7 (again, the teacher expected her to achieve the score she achieved, and again, that was why she was placed in the set)
The more I write, the more ****ed up I think the decision is – at no point has she fallen below what, statistically, was expected of her (which was why she was in the set), she achieved what her teacher expected, and at one point over-achieved. If it wasn't for her struggling with one piece of work in her last test, she would have over-achieved again but, as it is, she still managed to achieve as expected!!!
Deleted as I was going to quote a couple of things and then realised the person hadn't said what I thought they said so I said something else.
But then OP responded below, which made it kinda awkward, so I'm removing it.
Soz
^ I know! It really is inexplicable.
If the person in the lower set over-achieved however, the school is still left with the problem of fitting a quart into a pint pot.
*If the person in the lower set over-achieved however, the school is still left with the problem of fitting a quart into a pint pot.*
But I am not sure why that should disadvantage someone that is performing either as or above expected though. And what happens after the next CAT if she performs better than the lowest person in the top set...
Hi, Maths teacher here. There are some really interesting responses in this thread and it's helped demonstrate to me how emotive the issue of setting is! Some points to think about:
1) The setting is supposed to help the child work at a level that they find comfortable. Some of the posts above are implying that the set is dictating the student's grade, where in reality it should be the other way around.
2) A student should get the same grade no matter what set they are in, assuming the sets are properly considered.
3) The teacher should not have said they don't agree with the decision. This is undermining the HoD. The decision to change sets should have been based on test performance AND some teacher input.
4) The test grades you've provided don't give the full picture. It would be more useful to have the raw score or a percentage.
Good luck getting an outcome that you're happy with.
*You keep using the word “disadvantage”. It’s been explained, several times, why that might not be the case.*
No it might not be the case. But given her emotional state and her reliance on friendship groups (as I have mentioned on this thread and the school know all about), it is going to be very disruptive for her – and these are her GCSE years we are thinking about.
@maths - we don't get anything more detailed – exact scores are shared with the students but not recorded. Our daughter said that, in the autumn term when she got a Grade 8, she was one point off getting a Grade 9 (which is the top grade available).
Madame educator often (always) gets given the top class. The selection takes place on the basis of a single test for the whole year group at the end of the year. It's objective and transparent. She's more than reluctant to demote willing kids and has sometimes increased class size rather than kick out.
when she got a Grade 8, she was one point off getting a Grade 9
I'm not going contribute much more as this is too much like work but...
These 8s and 9s need to be taken with a pinch of salt (or 4s, 5s 6s etc). What are they, predicted grades or current attainment grades? Very different beasts. Also if current attainment coming from assessments - are these actual past paper questions, timed and sat in exam style conditions (Inc extra time, scribes, readers etc etc etc) or centre/teacher generated end of topic tests sat in class? Again, very different beasts. Is this work that in and of its self is worthy of a 9 or is it work inductive of 9 standard understanding which is likely to be replicated in 15 months time with exam style questions?
This is another can or worms I'm reluctant to open (because quite simply it's way too much like work and I'm pretending I've not got to go back on Monday) but schools often manage to get themselves tied up in knots with parent and student expectations overly elevated using grades with a bit too much subjectivity. Do well in this end of topic test that's not been properly assimilated to exam standards, does not have the time pressures and is a single topic revised for in isolation- here's a 9. Now you are a hostage fortune.
Sensible schools use a different grading scale for achievement this far out on day to day marking and test with periodic predicted grade reports imo
Funnily enough my BGE grading system is "do you feel happy with that mark?"
everything @maths said - but I’d add to this:
The teacher should not have said they don’t agree with the decision. This is undermining the HoD.
that of course exactly what the teacher said and what pupil heard are not always the same thing, eg.
”Jane, we are going to move you Mr X’s class. I want to be clear youve done absolutely nothing wrong and I like having you in my class. Who sits it which class is decided by Mr Y” is easily misinterpreted by someone who is a bit upset or confused. Then she tells her Dad (or her mum, and her mum and dad discuss it) and now it’s remembered as “the teacher said she didn’t agree with the decision and she wasn’t even consulted”.
I think convert is also right - parents and pupils get set expectations which sometimes don’t materialise (or sometimes are totally smashed) because, eg remembering how to factorise an equation when you just did it last week and all the questions are on factorising is very different from being presented with a question that doesn’t give you a clue that it’s a factorising problem 9 months after you did it in class.
I find it very unlikely that a student who is capable of A level maths if they sit in the top set at gcse is going to fail to even get in if the sit in the second set. My blunt answer: take a moment to honesty reflect if it’s YOUR pride that’s being dented by your child not being in top set. We have friends who proudly declared that their eldest was in top set for things, but two years later when their youngest was not doing so well were vocally critical of the approach the school took to grading them. I don’t know you or your daughter but it might be worth trying to find someone who can give you really honest frank feedback (not friends who will tell you what you want to hear). Perhaps that tutor you have for your other daughter, if told you want the honest truth would be able to discuss maths with your daughter and give a more genuine appraisal of anyone here on whether/why she’s struggled and how to tackle it.
you are treating being in “2nd set” like being in some sort of remedial class. Imagine you have 150 pupils and a maximum of 30 pupils per class. Assuming you thing “sets” are a good way to sort the classes for learning (and your outrage implies you do), then what should they do when it looks from mid year results like there’s one kid struggling a touch with the pace in the top set and one who is probably bored in second set. The usual reason little Johnnys parents (or class teacher) are saying should move “up” is he’s finishing all the work ahead of the class and not feeling challenged. Moving into the top set puts him with others who are also finding the work easy and who can be given extension work to stretch them. What you are asking is for the school to make a special exception for your daughter because of some non-academic reason. That might be reasonable but it’s not the thrust of your OP.
FWIW I’d put my emotional effort into helping your daughter find psychological support because if she’s going to do a-levels and go to uni this won’t be the only time in life that she doesn’t get the positive reinforcement she may be used to.
Go to the school and ask, find out the situation as they see it and keep an open mind. If they see she's struggling , or should be down, being in a class with the faster kids is going to be a bit more than disruptive.
You've gone on a bit about friendship groups but also said her best friend was moving down too (IIRC) - so doesn't that mean she'd be unhappy staying in the top class?
^^^ No - it is a large group of her friends in the group - it is easier with the one other going down with her, but there are still four or five others in that class that she is close to.
All you can do is nip in and chat to the HoD if an appointment is available, and see what the issue is and if it can be resolved, also worth checking what he/she would like for Christmas or what their favourite tipple is, hint, hint 🤣
HoY here. There's no easy win from these situations for anyone.
Rightly or wrongly, the Maths Department/Faculty is (like everyone) pretty much totally outcomes driven. Depending on the school, this will result in more or less overt pressure from SLT on the HoD to justify their management decisions. SLT often will only accept hard data as the major part of this. Those CAT results (weird that any school uses that acronym BTW as it has a very widely understood specific meaning in education which isn't how this school is using it) will be what SLT are basing their line management questions for the HoD on.
There will be pressure on numbers in each class.
At each assessment point, students will move or or down in subjects that are setted. This is actually likely to get more volatile during GCSEs rather than less as the HoD tries to juggle the numbers as the terminal exams approach.
It's unlikely HoY will have any involvement in this process beyond maybe being asked to check for any relationship/behaviour concerns stemming from potential set changes. the only time I really am hands on with group changes is if behaviour or safeguarding concerns trigger them rather than assessment data.
I agree that if the situation is as described, the major issue here is one of communication with home rather than the process itself (which happens repeatedly in pretty much every secondary school in the UK).
Class teacher has been less than professional if they have said they disagree with the decision to either student or adults at home - they may well do so, but to say that makes the situation worse rather than better.
Only reasonable course of action is to speak to the HoD, but don't expect that to necessarily change the situation. Schools are/should be the professionals here, and should know what (historically) works for their students in terms of outcomes.
To look at it objectively (and this is probably the line I would take as HoY if in the middle of a similar situation), it's not about being in top set or not (IME kids don't really care about that very much at all) - it's about being in the appropriate teaching environment for what the data currently suggests is what any given student needs to give them the best chance of making good or better progress.
TLDR. It might feel like your kid is on the rough end of this, but the school will have done it for what their processes see as good reasons. They just haven't dealt with the comms/PR side of this very well by the sound of it.
They just haven’t dealt with the comms/PR side of this very well by the sound of it.
FWIW, whilst I can see why parents think they should be consulted about every decision about their children, at my kids school this would not have automatically involved informing or consulting the parents. The expectation being that by 14/15 (?) you are old enough and responsible enough to be looking after yourself (and probably less likely to make a fuss!). And parents would probably only get involved if the initial discussion with the child flagged concerns. We’ve no idea how the OPs daughter reacted on being told this by the teacher - she may well have been ambivalent. Sometimes teenagers do need advocacy support to convey their feelings to teachers (who are in a position of authority) but sometimes they need help talking to parents, who can get angry about stuff they don’t care about…
Parents don't need consulting, agreed as that way madness lies. As a teacher though, I'd see it as a courtesy to inform adults at home (even if it's just a general comms out to all parents that there have been set changes in Maths - takes literally seconds to do this with the group text system we use).
As I’m back here I’ll add the results of a bit of googling.
2023 gcse results were a bit lower so I’ve used the 2022 results. Link below.
Each set is 1/7 of the cohort which is about 14 %. I think the op said there were 7 sets. On National results the 8 and 9 grades are about the top 14%. So that puts grade 7s in the second set.
Now of course it won’t work like that on results day. It’s really hard to know how students will do so. In reality the top set might get some 6&7 grades and the second set some 8&9 grades.
Lots of teachers mentioning how hard grading is in schools. Just don’t get me started. It’s really hard. Click the link to get a clue as to one of the reains why it is so hard
https://www.statista.com/statistics/282422/gcse-grades-in-england/
I got moved up to top set in science when at school (many years ago), on my first lesson, I had the audacity to ask the teacher to repeat something and she replied (to the whole class), "if you can't keep up then get out!" She was the head of the department as well. I think being in top set at times isn't the right place for everyone. In hindsight, I wish I'd asked to be put down a set.
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“if you can’t keep up then get out!”
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I do shudder at my own profession. I usually recon on half the class being lost if anyone asks for a repeat or clarification. So I think everyone gets a thank you.