Forum menu
One of my daughters (yr 10 so first year of her GCSEs) is in the top set in maths and has always done well – usually gets 8s (with a 9 being the highest available) in her CATS and 'exceptional' attitude to learning and has always had glowing reports from her teachers.
However, she 'only' got a 7 in her last CAT (there was a particular subject she just didn't get to grips with that had never been covered before) and she's suddenly been told she's moving down a set (her teacher told her she didn't actually agree with the decision). We all feel pretty frustrated about this as she has never had her performance flagged, she's not been given a chance to improve (her twin sister gets additional maths tutoring so we could have had her join in if we knew of any concern) yet she's been moved down (apparently because there is someone in the set below who is doing well and they need to make space for him).
We just feel that disrupting her like this when she is in her GCSE years could have an effect on her performance and we just feel annoyed that the decision has been made with no discussion (we, as parents, haven't been contacted about it).
Am I over-reacting?
Can you go in and have a chat with the teacher?
+1 on speak to teacher.
Yes I have already emailed the head of maths (who made the decision) – her teacher wasn't even part of the discussion apparently.
+1 on speak to the teacher.
Happened to my lad as he was going into year 11, didn't do as well as he should have done on his first mock that they did end of year 10 and got moved down, his own fault really but we'd have pushed him a bit more if thought there was a chance of him getting moved down. I wish we'd have pushed harder to try and get back in the top set. We were assured he should still be on for his predicited mark and the drop down won't affect him. He was going for 7/8, and it has affected him though. I think if he was still in top set he would be going for an 8, but now he is going for a 7 with a danger of only getting a 6.
I know a 6 is still supposed to be a B, but nowadays as the emphasis is all on 8's and 9's it isn't really, and he needs a 7 to get onto the maths A level course at the college he wants to go to. No A-levels at his school so has to move to a college.
That happened to me. Got dropped to a lower class the teacher was a grade a disgrace, religious zealot who just stood at the front passing judgment. I told him to **** off. Got kicked out to sit in the department heads class.
Got a B, most of a degree in it, and a whole degree in engineering.
What was the difficult subject?
I've always felt really sorry for HoDs in subjects that set - it's a miserable job.
Obviously have that chat, the most sensible thing to do.
and ‘exceptional’ attitude to learning
My only caveat is that great attitude and effort can be brilliant at masking actual ability and there are natural stages in education where kids/students get "found out" and their brilliant attitude is no longer enough and they need a teaching strategy with less assumptions of 'getting it first time' and a more turn by turn approach. A term or so into maths A level is a classic one. GCSE less so, but it's still a thing. Dropping does not necessarily mean a drop in teaching standards - sometimes quite the reverse. A lot of HoDs will use their best teachers on 2nd set as that's where the magic happens - turning marginal grades into great grades. Top set is often taught by busy people elsewhere in the school (the assistant head etc) as it's seen as a comparatively easy workload.
My thoughts would be stop pestering the teachers and let them do their jobs.
If you're bothered about her grades then get her some tutoring.
But really, a slightly different grade in a single GCSE means sweet FA in the grand scheme of things. Plenty of people graduate from oxbridge and can't actually land a decent job...
Also, chronic stress is really not a good state of being. This is probably going to be the most stressful period of her entire life - there's no need to make it any harder than it has to be.
My only caveat is that great attitude and effort can be brilliant at masking actual ability and there are natural stages in education where kids/students get “found out” and their brilliant attitude is no longer enough and they need a teaching strategy with less assumptions of ‘getting it first time’ and a more turn by turn approach. A term or so into maths A level is a classic one. GCSE less so, but it’s still a thing. Dropping does not necessarily mean a drop in teaching standards – sometimes quite the reverse. A lot of HoDs will use their best teachers on 2nd set as that’s where the magic happens – turning marginal grades into great grades. Top set is often taught by busy people elsewhere in the school (the assistant head etc) as it’s seen as a comparatively easy workload.
plus 1 for this.
I got found out at university (engineering). Uni level maths I could not grasp at all.
If you’re bothered about her grades then get her some tutoring.
I think you need to read my post...
'she has never had her performance flagged, she’s not been given a chance to improve (her twin sister gets additional maths tutoring so we could have had her join in if we knew of any concern)'
Now my GCSEs were over 25 years ago, but back then, being in anything other than top set meant an A grade wasn't possible. Is that still the case? What is the actual impact of changing group?
Mate and I both dropped fri A set french to B set french voluntarily as we got on better with that teacher.
First question, will it affect exam results? Second question, if it does affect exam results, what's the actual impact on the grand plan?
If I had my time again, I'd not waste it in A levels and a degree.
(The degree got me into this industry but I'd probably be further ahead and have a lot more money behind me if I'd come in at ground level and worked up).
A lot of HoDs will use their best teachers on 2nd set as that’s where the magic happens
Definitely this. There is no way I'd have done as well in Higher English if I'd not been in the B set.
Assuming she's not really a budding maths/science star (which I'm guessing is unlikely from the 8s and a 7) I really don't see that dropping a grade in one subject is likely to impact her life much one way or the other.
If she's really in love with science stuff and looks like she's heading that way for a career then it might be worth fighting a bit harder for.
Little bit over reacting imho. Teachers just doing their job. My kids were moved down and up sets over their school years. Don't think it ended up limited them. Have a chat and see what they say.
If she’s really in love with science stuff and looks like she’s heading that way for a career then it might be worth fighting a bit harder for.
Or she could do better next test or whenever, with extra coaching if now wanted and move up on merit, much as the kid who is taking her place appears to be doing.
Are kids heading for careers at 14 nowadays?
I get that she's not going to be the next Stephen Hawkins, but there is more to being dropped a set than just grades - friendship groups, fear of failure (this is exactly what she sees it as) etc. I won't go into the complex issues she has, but moving sets will hurt her mentally (and the school is very well aware of her ongoing anxiety issues).
We could accept it if she wasn't good enough to be in the top set, but she is – it's the result of just one test that has resulted in this decision. Surely at this point, it should have been a 'look, you didn't do very well in the last CAT, is there anything we can do? Is there anything in particular you are struggling with? If you continue to struggle, we feel it would be best for you to drop a set'.
Speak to the HoD
My lad is the year below yours and was moved from top set English to middle. Its actually helped him not being around kids who enjoy reading if you get what I mean. Already been told he will be back in top set for start of GCSEs as he obviously just needed a confidence booster
However, in GCSE years I would defo be asking. Being in a lower group could mean the teacher has less time to help OPs child as there are others with greater needs, or others that want to disrupt.
But really, a slightly different grade in a single GCSE means sweet FA in the grand scheme of things.
Depends what you are aspiring to after school IMO. Perhaps those people that you mention coming out of Oxford and dont get jobs are the ones that were not that diligent and didnt get top marks?
*Speak to the HoD*
Yes I already emailed him and waiting on a response.
A '7' grade is an 'A', is it not?
Seems like an odd decision in those circumstances. Having said that, while being in the top set is an advantage if you can keep up, I remember the pace of learning being frantic due to the ridiculous difficulty and extent of the curriculum (stuff I remember from A level popping up at GCSE).
It's possible that there will be less chance that topics will be revisited to make sure everyone is 'getting' them - top set will also be possibly working to cram in the possibility of Further Maths at GCSE (!), so it's something for parents to be mindful of if their kid is towards the lower ability end of the top set.
Well yes I was certainly heading for a science/maths career by that age and getting knocked back in a relevant subject would have potentially changed my direction. OTOH despite being quite near the top of the year generally I really didn't care about going down a set in history or geography or something like that, it was just another line on the list of results and getting a couple of Bs in those subjects just didn't register. I think I got a B in history and dropped geo completely, but that was all irrelevant by the time A-levels started let alone later in my life.
If she's so fragile that such a minor knock is a serious problem for her, then that's the issue to address, because that will only get worse as she progresses. There were quite a few who really struggled at uni when they started to get more significantly challenged.
The biggest impact for me would be changing friendship group and fitting a different class dynamic. I’m 49 now, but remember being moved down a set in maths at 13 and not liking the new class dynamics at all, which was everything to do with the people and nothing to do with the teacher. It’s maths, so it wasn’t just one lesson a week…
I worked hard to get back up and managed it, and I was much happier back amongst my friends.
I’d love to be able to go back to my 13 year old self and tell him the grade or set makes very little difference, but my 13 year old self would probably tell me he just wanted to be happy at school.
If you can discuss it, and keep her in the set I would. Assuming of course, she doesn’t feel under pressure trying to keep up…
It happened to my daughter. Luckily, the teacher for the middle set was truly excellent, really loved maths, really nice guy. He helped her to find her learning style and she ended up with a 9.
+669734434, speak to the teacher. We had something similar (but going the other way, over-achieving in set 2 at every single stage and someone else in a similar position got bumped up but Noel didn't). Quick chat to the teacher, they admitted that something was wrong and the next week he was in set 1 where he continues to smash it. I don't envy teachers at all (wife was a teacher and loads of friends and family are) but with 30 kids to teach every hour during 9 til 3, they're bound to make the odd mistake but in my experience are very open to admitting to it. After all, its in their interest for kids to excel......
What are you going to do if the overall feeling from the school is that she should move a set, which is hardly the end of the world? It might be worth spending some time preparing for that
Reality is, if the lad below is doing better, is it fair on him to be top of that class and no chance of moving up, will his parents be happy that he's being held back because someone in the upper class doesn't want to move down?
It's a problem that's created at the outset with this approach to classes in schools, when i was at school it was horrific as there was no real fairness, grades were just part of it, things like societal class came into it back then, which was embarrassing looking back.
Talk to school and get a tutor for a little while to steady the ship on the stuff she’s not confident in.
My thoughts would be stop pestering the teachers and let them do their jobs.
Didn't read past this drivel. You're supposed to fart out of your arse.. What an idiotic thing to say. Breaking News for you; Teachers aren't always right.
*If she’s so fragile that such a minor knock is a serious problem for her, then that’s the issue to address, because that will only get worse as she progresses.*
We are dealing with that as best we can - it is very, very hard (she is having therapy).
*How does your daughter feel about it? Surely the most important consideration.*
It is difficult to know as she shuts down lots (see above).
*What are you going to do if the overall feeling from the school is that she should move a set, which is hardly the end of the world? *
When (if) I get to speak the the head of year, if they can give a fair explanation, then we will accept it. I am not going to kick off big time, but we feel let down by a total lack of communication from the school (as I said in my OP, we haven't even been officially told about it, we have never, not once been told of any concerns about her performance, it just came completely out of the blue.
I got found out at university (engineering). Uni level maths I could not grasp at all.
They ran a remedial maths course in the first term of my Engineering degree.
Revisited an entire A-Level in pure and applied mathematics in 10-12 weeks. Number of people who had obviously learnt the bare minimum to get an A-Level passing grade was surprising.
If I had my time again, I’d not waste it in A levels and a degree.
(The degree got me into this industry but I’d probably be further ahead and have a lot more money behind me if I’d come in at ground level and worked up).
Unless you've only graduated in the last few weeks, there are an absolute shed load of career doors that have been pretty much permanently closed in the last couple of decades unless you have a degree.
A ‘7’ grade is an ‘A’, is it not?
It is but that wont be good enough to get you on to some degree courses.
Although not a nice situation for Ops daughter, hopefully this will help her cope with knock backs that she gets as an adult if she can learn to deal with it now. (unfortunately that sort of life learning doesnt count in qualifications !
+669734434, speak to the teacher.
There's your problem, teacher lives in Thailand.
Hopefully the HoD can communicate and explain the decision and come to an agreement. I agree with the others to think of it as potentially getting extra tuition or different ways of teaching the same things, whereas the top set might not be getting as much explanation. The set they are in shouldn't really affect a grade, unless it limits the paper they are put forward for (?), in that the subject matter is the same, but I can appreciate the disruption if she was in a friendship group in that class but not others and/or change in teacher and teaching style. I would emphasise that maths is like a language and it builds on bases, fundamentals. So if she does want to do something science-y then there is an element of just getting on with getting up to speed on that one subject she struggled with. Whether that be inside or outside of school. Sorry.
I am amazed / appalled at the comment that a college could refuse entry to a fundamental A level (i.e. maths or English). I would have thought any state school or college must allow people on the course as long as they meet the national minimum requirement (maths and English grade 4 and three other GCSEs at 4 or higher). It seems immensely limiting.
Maybe there are kids in the lower set that need to move up to be stretched and your kid is the least able in the top set and possibly shouldn't be there.
Keeping in mind there are class size constraints.
I went from bottom set to top set in French at GCSE. It happens.
*Maybe there are kids in the lower set that need to move up to be stretched and your kid is the least able in the top set and possibly shouldn’t be there.*
Absolutely may be the case, but, aside from her last CAT (that is just one test in her 3.5 years at the school), she has always been towards the top (in the CAT before, she was one point off a 9) and we have had no explanation at all. I honestly think they just decided to pick her as her sister is in the other class and assumed she'd be happy with the move TBH.
"Breaking News for you; Teachers aren’t always right."
No but they do know the processes within the department and maybe this shift is because the lad in the class below deserves the bump up and, well someone has to bump down.
But I know from experience that parents will always assume they are right in the beginning, which is understandable as they are worried about their child whereas on a busy day I would have 100+ to think about.
As has been stated above mistakes do happen and hopefully OPs daughter can gain the marks she deserves.
Didn’t read past this drivel. You’re supposed to fart out of your arse.. What an idiotic thing to say. Breaking News for you; Teachers aren’t always right.
Seems somewhat entitled.
Shocker: I don't know any teacher who is not working damn hard to do the best by all their pupils. And decisions like this are not made lightly. As convert says, there can be positives for the move AND good reasons.
*As convert says, there can be positives for the move AND good reasons.*
Absolutely (I have already accepted this may well be the case), but her own teacher wasn't consulted, doesn't agree with the decision and, despite my reaching out to the HoD and offering to meet him in person, we haven't heard from them so we don't know what any 'good reason' may look like.
👍
Long time ago now but I got an A in O level maths despite being in the second set and I think that was largely due to the teacher (head of Maths) challenging me. I was one of the best three in the set and we all got A grades - the top set only managed four A's in total.
Assuming say five minimum Maths classes in a year the second set should comprise of reasonably intelligent and motivated kids.
I would guess that on your daughters part this may be more about the social impact of being moved down that concern about teaching standards? Is she the only one being moved? - if yes then that is understandably going to be hard for her.
Is she the only one being moved? – if yes then that is understandably going to be hard for her.
Two are being moved down – 'coincidentally', it is her best friend that is being moved with her. I am of the belief they made the decision based on what they thought would have least impact rather than who was under-performing (she certainly wasn't as her lowest ever grade was still equivalent to a Grade A GCSE) and the fact they didn't even consult her teacher is very suspicious. We'll wait to see what the HoD has to say when he responds to my email.
How's her friend doing grades wise? Might it be a case of friend going and trying to lessen the impact of that on your daughter? So unfortunately the distress is an unfortunate outcome of someone trying to do the right thing. Recently seen moves like this and it's been guidance/pastoral driven that have happened with no discussion. (I'm a Faculty Head).
Tough one I know - seems a bit harsh if it's one topic and the first time she's faltered, but if you are setting and the "top 30" go in the top set, if she's now ranked 31 she'll have to fight her way back up with extra work if necessary.
On a parallel thread is a parent saying their son is being blocked from moving up to the top set by a girl who performed worse than him in a test.
I got an A at O level maths, somehow scraped a D at A level. I'd hit my limit.
"I am of the belief they made the decision based on what they thought would have least impact rather than who was under-performing"
In your view, would this validate the decision? And are you concerned that she couldn't hit her full potential from the lower group?