[Closed] Dairy farmers selling milk for less than it costs to produce How does that work?

This is interesting, and seems fairly balanced - read to the end

It is interesting but only by the fact that they say that the benefits are a good source of Calcium, Vitamin D etc which can be found from much better sources than milk (Nuts, grains, leafy greens etc). For me personally, the benefits aren't actually benefits, the negatives however are very worrying.

Shifter - You don't see a farmer on a bike???

[url= http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3803/8805674292_5f726a8525.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3803/8805674292_5f726a8525.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/57182396@N07/8805674292/ ]IMAG1014[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/57182396@N07/ ]neil.d.cox[/url], on Flickr

Sorry to everyone/anyone who is getting fed up of that photo cropping up!

The problem in the UK is that few buyers want to pay a true price for the cost of production of their food. I took lambs to market a fortnight ago and got £1.80/kg, last week it was £1.50/kg. So an average 32kg Welsh mountain lamb was £48. If you look at the cost of getting lambs there, from feed over winter for the ewe, drenches for worm and fluke, rent/mortgages, machinery costs (even knackered 2nd hand stuff, not everyone has a brand new Deere) the margins are tight. Subsidies do come with cross-compliance and other stipulations, but without them farmers would be broke (or buyers would pay the 'real' price of their food, which I'm guessing wouldn't go down very well!).

The payments for environmental schemes (such as Glastir in Wales), are based on a farmers commitment to provide certain habitats or practices that are benefitial to the environment but these require a significant amount of work to meet. For example I could plant an orchard, fence off a pond including a 3m border or create a wildlife corridor but the cost of doing so would pretty much match the income provided by the payment. The environment benefits, but I would lose acreage and therefore income from farming the ground.

Yes, it is good in many ways that food is cheap, but we also need to maintain domestic food production.

or buyers would pay the 'real' price of their food, which I'm guessing wouldn't go down very well!

If food becomes more expensive then people who are very poor will end up cutting even more corners, and their kids' nutrition could suffer.

There will always be cheap food, whether it is imported from abroad or whatever. I was talking about the example Neil mentioned above. Doubt very much people on the poverty line are buying Welsh mountain lamb, but I would be happy to pay the correct price for something like that.

If food becomes more expensive then people who are very poor will end up cutting even more corners, and their kids' nutrition could suffer.

Not necessarily. There seems to be an (unrealistic) expectation that food should be cheap enough to be able to eat meat for every meal, and a parallel expectation that you need to eat meat every day. It is this mindset that is the main issue here. If people ate more grains, pulses and vegetables and less packaged / processed food, meats etc then their kids would not only be healthier but they would save significant amounts of money.

farmers > processors > retailers > consumers

everyone is to blame to some extent. but surely the retailers have the greatest control over price? they control the supply chain and also tell the consumer what they want.

As with most who say "I'd rather pay more for my food and less in subsidies" 90% say that right until they see something cheaper.

There was a HFW one about battery/intensive chickens. He showed people what was going on, got them looking after free range chickens and still found them in Tesco's buying intensive chickens. their reason, it's cheaper.

Subsidies do come with cross-compliance and other stipulations, but without them farmers would be broke (or buyers would pay the 'real' price of their food, which I'm guessing wouldn't go down very well!).

Yes, it is good in many ways that food is cheap, but we also need to maintain domestic food production.

As with most who say "I'd rather pay more for my food and less in subsidies" 90% say that right until they see something cheaper.

I would happily pay a little extra on a pint of milk if I knew it was going to the farmer, not Johnny bloody Sainsbury's favourite shareholder.

As with most who say "[s]I'd rather pay more for my food and less in subsidies[/s]i have a fact for your " 90% [s]say that right until they see something cheaper.[/s]make them up for effect

I am sure price is a great motivator but it depends on what info you give.
I think supermarkets have made the market thus and then say look it is what our customers want.
There is no message on quality just adverts saying we price match and give you money back etc
Jamie oliver changed perceptions on cheap food for example
I agree price motivates many but it need not be the only factor

As with most who say "I'd rather pay more for my food and less in subsidies" 90% say that right until they see something cheaper.

I buy milk based on taste, not price. Whole milk normally. You generally pay for taste.

I have no idea whether paying more for it improves everybody's margins or just those of the retailers/ processors. I generally buy the Yeo Valley organic stuff.

That doesn't make any sense.

it makes sense in Junkyworld and that's all that matters.

Its not my quote smarty pants -absence of typos and quite brief 😉

Konabunny,
When I said
'Subsidies do come with cross-compliance and other stipulations, but without them farmers would be broke (or buyers would pay the 'real' price of their food, which I'm guessing wouldn't go down very well!).'

and you responded,
'Buyers are already paying the real price of their food - just through taxes. That subsidy money doesn't come from thin air.'

What I mean is that, yes people pay for food indirectly via taxes and Brussels, but most are not really aware of this in a day-to-day sense. The price on the packet is what most see as the cost to them, the other cost, via taxes, is out of their control. That said, many bemoan farmers being given such subsidies, but should they be faced with a cut in subsidies they would soon find that the price they pay increases and be unhappy about that too. Either that or we would see an increase in imports of cheaper, poorer quality produce. That is another can of sardines to open though...

I drink full-cream (blue top) milk, usually a pint or so a day plus whatever goes in my endless teas'.

No idea whether it is 100% good for me, but certainly know that it's far better than the fizzy drinks that everyone else seems to consume.

Delivered every second day by our local milkman.

If people ate more grains, pulses and vegetables and less packaged / processed food, meats etc then their kids would not only be healthier but they would save significant amounts of money.

Hmm. In theory maybe but there is a practical reality to face. You can get a cheap burger or sausage out of the freezer, cook it, and it tastes ok. I bet that is cheaper than cooking a lentil meal from scratch, and I guarantee it's a lot easier and requires less skill. I do wonder sometimes if posters on here actually know poor people. Yes it is possible to work a job, come home and cook properly, but it is hard. Especially without skills, support and practice.

What I mean is that, yes people pay for food indirectly via taxes and Brussels,

Yes, but taxation is progressive, so poor people effectively pay less for their food than the rich.

You can get a cheap burger or sausage out of the freezer, cook it, and it tastes ok.

I would disagree on that, but i get your point.

I bet that is cheaper than cooking a lentil meal from scratch, and I guarantee it's a lot easier and requires less skill.

Disagree, if you have a cheap burger, you will be hungry 30mins later (as well as feeling like s***. A proper cooked meal, which lets be honest is not hard, will be cheaper and you will be fuller for longer. I can go to my local farmers market and for £10 come back with 4 big backs of fresh food which will last the week.

Yes it is possible to work a job, come home and cook properly, but it is hard.

I bet that is cheaper than cooking a lentil meal from scratch, and I guarantee it's a lot easier and requires less skill.

[url]

1 onion
Spices
some lentils
water

Chop onion
add spices and fry
add lentils and water [ passata and stock if you really want to ]
Cook till done
Add other veg if wanted

I reckon 3 mins prep and 20 mins cooking

I reckon I could make about 5 kg cooked weight[2kg dry] for about £3-4 and it would last about 25 sittings [ 200 g per meal*] or 15 p a pop.

With rice I reckon another 5-10 p in cost

I market it as the tibetan diet for the very poor
* 400 calories ish

can I just reiterate
however [b]laziness to learn new stuff[/b] means I'll be doing chicken something for tea tonight instead of a nice dahl.
😉

ps "cook till done" is an absolutely top rate cooking instruction that I think should be added to all food packaging.

Disagree, if you have a cheap burger, you will be hungry 30mins later (as well as feeling like s***

If you have been brought up on frozen burgers, pizzas, pies and oven chips, then you will be satisfied and not know the difference. Trust me, I know many many people who do this. They can't conceive of cooking vegetarian food from scratch any more than you can conceive of living happily on burgers and chips.

My dinner tonight, which took me less than 5 mins and zero skill to prepare this morning

It did take skill. You had to know what to put in your slow cooker, how to prepare it, and how it would all react in what kind of cooking. You know stuff without realising it.

I know the rudiments of cooking but I had to figure it all out myself, and it involved a great many awful unappetising meals and a fair few that were inedible and had to go in the bin.

When you've been working all day at a factory, you've got whining kids who won't eat, you're exhausted and don't know how to deal with them, but you know they'll eat burgers and chips, it would take quite a lot of effort to plan a meal, cook, to wait til it's done and try and get the kids to eat it.

Cooking meals is not hard IF YOU KNOW HOW TO DO IT. If you don't, it's a mystery.

Invotes DONK and Molly to dinner as someone needs to learn to cook 😉

Molly we could all make excuses for not cooking but that is all it is. Its not that hard to learn to cook basic stuff as that example showed. Its fair enough to not care but its not really fair to claim you cannot [learn] or dont have the time [ you choose not to].
Yes somedays we just get something out the freezer but all things in moderation.

I think we're brainwashed in the UK in to sheepishly baa-ing along to the line that subsidies to farmers are bad, mmkay.

"Blah blah blah", goes the press. "French farmers are massively subsidised", blah blah.

Well here's a fact: French food, ordinary food-in-the-shops food, is ****ing GREAT compared to the same stuff here. I'd challenge anyone to a blind taste test of, say, two supermarket tomatoes, one here, one in France. I'm confident the French tomato would win that taste test 95% of the time, and the other 5% would be people who like tomatoes that taste mainly of water.

Molly we could all make excuses for not cooking but that is all it is. Its not that hard to learn to cook basic stuff as that example showed.

I can cook just fine. I am just trying to explain to you how some people live, that's all. Some people have no understanding whatsoever of cooking or food, but they are under pressure to produce meals quickly, and they have no-one to help them.

Well here's a fact: French food, ordinary food-in-the-shops food, is **** GREAT compared to the same stuff here

Part of that is climate related, to be fair.

neilc1881. Thanks for the first-hand perspective. Too often the voices of experts are heard second or third-hand. Interesting points too LHS.

I am just trying to explain to you how some people live, that's all

Part of that is climate related, to be fair.

Molgrips is right however many for example cannot grasp the basic science that may convince them that organic or non processed foods might be better for them or what different food groups do . Hell a significant part of the population couldnt read a cookbook either!

I really dont get why you do this.

Why not?

This might have already been discussed by someone else but i'm not reading it all. Subsidies should be removed from the system as they create bad farming practices in NZ they removed it 20 odd years a go and all the bad farmers packed in and the good farmers flourished, they should do that here and let the bad farmers stop.

There are no direct subsidies for production. It is based on the land area and countryside stewardship schemes. Since this has changed many of the big estates and rich landowners have been getting this and the tennant farmer nowt. The cost of milk and food have led to many people leaving farming and the average age of farmers being about 50\60 plus.

Arla was mentioned above as one of the badies. Funnily enough it is owned by farmers in sweden and denmark.

Well here's a fact: French food, ordinary food-in-the-shops food, is **** GREAT compared to the same stuff here. I'd challenge anyone to a blind taste test of, say, two supermarket tomatoes, one here, one in France. I'm confident the French tomato would win that taste test 95% of the time, and the other 5% would be people who like tomatoes that taste mainly of water.

Supermarket research (in the UK) dictates that people want perfect looking fruit & veg and thats what they serve up.

Here in Oz we get both, but we have to go to proper fruit & veg shops to get tasty stuff.

The supermarket's wield the power in the mix, the deliver what people say they want and tell the producers what they need. Who would produce something that buyers (supermarkets) wont buy.

dairy farmers and fresh food farmers get ripped off left right and centre its down to supermarkets,
same as in fresh produce worked on a organic food farm(we quite a few and dairy farms , waterwell engineer) and the amont of waste is staggering take cabage .their are mountain upon montain of cabage roting away because supermarkets want a specific size (plam sized)not just cabage all fresh food, the resone supermarkets tell us its what the housewife wants(bull****) its so a family can only get 1 meal out of the cabage so you have to buy anouther
buy at local markets and support your local farmers , that is if you csn find a market near you allmost all gone now, again down to big fat asda , tesco's and the like

Well here's a fact: French food, ordinary food-in-the-shops food, is **** GREAT compared to the same stuff here.

You may wish to get some shopping trips in quick.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9612225/Number-of-obese-people-in-France-doubles-to-seven-million.html

The government blamed the obesity epidemic on junk food, calling for talks with the industry on improving the contents and packaging of ready-to-eat meals.

This might have already been discussed by someone else but i'm not reading it all. Subsidies should be removed from the system as they create bad farming practices in NZ they removed it 20 odd years a go and all the bad farmers packed in and the good farmers flourished, they should do that here and let the bad farmers stop.

I'm curious about how the money for subsidies is found. I mean, if I'm paying for the subsidy through taxation. What's the point of the subsidy? Why not pay the actual price at point of purchase.

Is it simply a case of remaining competitive with cheaper imports as it appears to be?

Cooking meals is not hard IF YOU KNOW HOW TO DO IT. If you don't, it's a mystery.

Just because you don't know how to do something doesn't make it hard. I've just started learning piano.

I didn't know C Major scale, I now do. At no point was it hard. #strawmanalert?

That said, Beethovens Fur Elise looks a little tricky, depends on the context. But I firmly place boiling seasoned spuds at the c major scale end if difficult that's for sure.

I think, aside from not knowing. The biggest obstacle to learning basic cooking skills are cultural obstacles. People's behaviour can be influenced in pretty significant ways by those around them. The church beer twitter map [i]kind of [/i]illustrates this.

living happily on burgers and chips.

This makes my inner food snob sad.

I really dont get why you do this.

It's something I used to do a lot, nowadays I have trouble remembering/arguing my own position so I've got no chance of defending someone else's.

Just because you don't know how to do something doesn't make it hard

It can do. There is no absolute scale of difficulty.

Anyway the point is that cooking is a skill, like speaking French. Millions of French people manage it without thinking, but it's still something to learn and can be hard for some people.

Same with cooking. To a lot of people, food IS oven chips etc, that's what they've been brought up on, that's it. When you cook, you bring a whole load of skills into play that you don't even realise, just like you do when you speak English. To many people, learning to cook basic foods and learning how to assemble basic foods into a dish is a skill they don't have, and must be learned. And that, to some, is too much effort.

Now you may decide to deride these pepole, that's up to you. But they exist, and in large numbers.

I do cook, but I'm not that great at it. I can cook some food quickly, but I can't do what the likes of Jamie Oliver do and make really appetising food in minutes. A lot of what I cook requires planning and forethought, which is why it often doesn't get done.

devils advocate

It's because I want people to understand different points of view other than their own.

piemonster - Member
What's the point of the subsidy?

partly, to protect farmers against fluctuations in productivity/prices.

example: maybe you've got 200 acres of wheat - you can lose the lot in 5mins of dodgy weather (heavy rain, hail, etc.).

with subsidies, you won't go bust, you'll survive to have another go next year...

I mean, if I'm paying for the subsidy through taxation. What's the point of the subsidy? Why not pay the actual price at point of purchase.

As above - if you pay less tax because you are a low earner, you are getting subsidised food.

is a skill they don't have, and must be learned. And that, to some, is too much effort.