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Re front/back/pair, this is a perennial STW thread, same as "new tyres on the rear". But basically, you've got them on the wheels, you've got some bad conditions to try them in, so play about, see if it works or not, then go forward based on that rather than on opinions of someone who's never driven your car.
The arguments do make sense but my real world experience of "front winters/allseasons, normal rears" was that it worked really pretty well. Not as good as 4 winters, miles better than no winters. The grip bias on that car was such that the lower grip on the back just wasn't the issue you'd expect- the fronts were doing all the hard work and the winters were making a vast difference, the rears had less grip but needed less grip and so it worked better than the internet will tell you. As for dangerous? Well, it was far safer than just having summer tyres on like most people.
Just this once it is socially responsible to go and dick about in a frozen car park.
As a cheapskate I have some Pirelli winter tyres on the front of Benoit the Berlingo.
And bog standard Firestone Multihawks on the back.
It still understeers on cold wet roads.
" According to tyre people I have spoken to , so long as you drive sensibly it’s fine to have all season on the drive wheels and normal on the rears. It is the fronts that slip and break traction far more readily than the rears (FWD of course) and you"
The same tyre people who , ten years ago, didn't recognise the need, the market, for winter tyres in the uk? "just stick a bag of sand in the boot!"...
It still understeers on cold wet roads.
This was my thinking also. The car I had at the time had serious understeer issues, and they remained (just to a lesser extent) with winters on front and summer on back. But in the snow completely different, which is partly what took me by surprise when I found myself going backwards. I really could not fathom how a car with so little grip on the front had suddenly adopted completely opposite characteristics. It definitely made me think about the edge cases of what might happen in events that we generally don't experience on a day to day basis, and I'd rather not find out.
Lease companies don’t authorise winter / non standard tyres (I’ve tried many times)
Tyre people sound like cowboys of the best order.
Another poster mentioned that cross climates are summer / standard tyres made a bit more wintery?
I booked my tyre appointment through the Arval lease portal, which then took me to ATS who replaced the tyres for me. I didn't pay any money, so I assume they were authorised.
It made sense to me at the time that a lease company would want their vehicles to have tyres like this fitted as more likely to stay on the road.
EDIT - thinking about this again, it may be linked to my company specifying these tyres. We recently moved from company owned vehicles to leased, but all company owned vehicles were fitted with crossClimates when tyres were replaced.
This was my thinking also. The car I had at the time had serious understeer issues, and they remained (just to a lesser extent) with winters on front and summer on back. But in the snow completely different, which is partly what took me by surprise when I found myself going backwards.
Yea, it wasn't a decision, someone offered a pair of nearly new winter tyres and wheels for free, and mine were at the legal limit on the outer shoulder.
I'm sensible enough driving summer tyres in deep snow so I'm erring towards this being better than nothing, if not as good as it could be. And might help in a straight line emergency braking on the motorway which is realistically the worst they'll be called upon to do.
I had winter tyres on my last car. Hype asside I really couldn't tell the difference. No one drives in a way where you could actually say "Michelin cross climates shaved 30s off my country lane commute" much less be able to actually tell if there's more grip without actually testing that limit. They were noisy and wore funny in the end though.
If you're looking at Crossclimates, I'd recommend also checking out the Bridgestone a005 all-weather tyres.
I've run Crossclimates on a few vehicles and the Bridgestones feel identical.
Although - if you have a powerful vehicle, change them for summer tyres in warmer conditions. I destroyed two fronts in less than a year with my 300bhp front wheel drive hothatch.
My personal experience with Cross Climate+ tyres is that they wear better than the stock Hankook tyres by some significant margin, mpg doesn't appear to be very different, but most importantly I can use the car (German, RWD & auto) in situations that the stock tyres proved lacking - mild snow & muddy car parks.
They've done a couple of trips to Italy, up to the Lakes including mild levels of snow in January & February, and general driving around.
Although – if you have a powerful vehicle, change them for summer tyres in warmer conditions. I destroyed two fronts in less than a year with my 300bhp front wheel drive hothatch.
My 122 bhp Corolla destroyed two fronts in less than a year too (humble brag) 🤣
I put 4 falken euro all seasons on our kadjar as they looked like the cross climate and were cheaper😂. The main reason was muddy cyclo cross event car parks. That never materialised but have been happy enough with their winter performance
if you have a powerful vehicle, change them for summer tyres in warmer conditions. I destroyed two fronts in less than a year with my 300bhp front wheel drive hothatch.
I think that might be your driving, not the power at the wheels. 😃
Car is booked in for the rears to be done
Sensible.
Earlier in the week I was riding with a pal and the car park we met in was icy/snowy and we watched a van struggle across it. I laughed I suggested he have a go, as he always said that winter tyres are pointless, but he'd put a pair on the front.
And said he'd no problem that day getting up the hill by his house - I replied that his bigger problem now was getting back down...
I live in rural Scotland and swap my wheels over to an 18" set with winters in November, swapping back to the 19" in late April (or May depending on the winter).
I had winter tyres on my last car. Hype asside I really couldn’t tell the difference. No one drives in a way where you could actually say “Michelin cross climates shaved 30s off my country lane commute”
During the Beast from the East in 2018 I got a near back to back comparison. My car was an Octavia FWD with Goodyear 4 Seasons. At work I was driving an Octavia Scout on summer tyres. THe difference wasn't noticeable on cold wet salted roads. Once onto packed snow or soft snow it was night and day.
Not sure how much time it would shave as I wouldn't drive faster on a commute but the increased safety margin is worth having.
I work shifts so sometimes, very rarely, drive on roads where the snow hasn't been plowed or gritted yet. I wouldn't have anthing but all seasons on my car now.
Sadly, this last week, crossclimates have been enabling me to get in to work at all hours to clear the snow. The new model is meant to be even better
Very similar to above, driving and Octavia estate, in 2017/18 the snow we had before Christmas I had summer tyres on my car* and was getting stuck on the slightest of slopes, when the beast hit in Feb 2018 I had crossclimates and it was a huge relief, night and day difference
(* I had winter tyres on the car and kept the summers in storage, however my winters needed changing and as I wasn’t working at the time, and Christmas was near, I decided to save some cash and put the summers on, yeah I know)
The same tyre people who , ten years ago, didn’t recognise the need, the market, for winter tyres in the uk?
^^^^^^^^Very much this^^^^^^^
Tyres are a factor in winter driving but actually knowing how to drive in winter conditions should be part of the driving test. The number of people I see hitting brakes then sliding down hills out of control rather than using gears to control speed in the UK is frightening, and having spent a fair bit of time abroad snowboarding in past winters is pretty rare in other countries where they get more predictable weather.
I will put all seasons on the rears WHEN they need changing, and having used full winters on the front for over 10 years (winter only)I'd say all seasons are probably better all rounder in most of the uk. Despite manufacturers recommendations I still say it's better having all season tyres on the drive/steering wheels than having summer tyres all round throughout the winter months, which is what virtually everyone I know still does
than using gears to control speed in the UK is frightening,
Have you tried this in a car on these new fangled eco tires.....
That truely is frightening. I'm quite happy using the gears to control speed.
I actually prematurely changed our stock eco tires as they were Frankly lethal on all but a bright sunny summer's day. .....of which we get about 3 months worth this far north -helps them get better efficiency ratings at type approval though.
So, this week I've been driving around in the snow on Michelin CC, but with more snow coming down and further snow forecast throughout the week I thought I'd put the full winters back on. Had been meaning to sell them on but never got round to it, hence they were lying around.
First impressions, significantly more noise but also significantly more grip in the snow.
We have a full set of CC on our car, had them fitted a couple of years ago, it’s a little FIAT 500. Had no issues this past week with the relatively minor amount of snow we have had. Compared to a summer tyre they are amazing. The wife has used them in the past when we had 2-3 inches and got to work on snow covered roads with no issues.
At the moment the snow has all thawed and been compacted into ice now in a lot of shady places and become quite lethal. I imagine they offer a small amount more grip than a summer tyre, but still being very careful, difficult to even stand as it’s polished smooth.
They are the best tyre for us, I don’t want two sets of wheels and tyres, and it removes the uncertainty in the British winter. No downside in the summer, they are better than the Continental summer tyres the car came with.
trail_rat
Free MemberHave you tried this in a car on these new fangled eco tires…..
Not even just ecos- the trend towards "3 fat central bands" which seems to be the norm on most new summer/touring/performance tyres seems definitely worse for winter. Eagles, Pilot Sports and Primacys, Turanzas, and loads more all share a pretty similar design and tbf one look and you can tell it's not going to work well on snow even when brand new- and then before they're a quarter worn most of the tread on the central bands fades away.
Comparing with say the V12 Evos I used before which were a much more conventionally "treaded" tyre in the same market space it's pretty amazing the difference. Due to some Bad Logistics I had to have the pilot sports on the legacy for a bit this winter and the grip in snow is just fantastically awful. Worse than even the cheap ditchfinders of a few years ago.
Michelin Agiles cross climate commercials on the caravelle here - grippy and quiet with the added benefits of looking like monster truck tyres and don’t seem to wear at all.
If only they made them big enough that I could use them all year round
d tbf one look and you can tell it’s not going to work well on snow even when brand new- and then before they’re a quarter worn most of the tread on the central bands fades away.
It's not even just snow. Damp roads/pulling out of junctions 9months of the year are a lottery. I've run pretty shady tires over the years from remoulds to part worns out the junkyard to 20 quid kwikfit specials..... And still not experianced anything as bad as the eco tires.... Had them on the Berlingo from.new and had them on a few hire cars.
Have winters(snowflake and mountain marked all terrains) on my camper and my land rover
And Nokian winters on the Berlingo now on steels with some other summer tire on the alloys but tbh they rarely get put on. The winters just suit much more of the year.....
The number of people I see hitting brakes then sliding down hills out of control rather than using gears to control speed in the UK is frightening
Been doing that for almost as long as I’ve been driving, roughly forty years, and never had a serious issue in snow, apart from turning right where there wasn’t just snow, but the road was part flooded and frozen. As I turned the wheel the car just gently went straight on until I hit the grass bank of the ditch by the side of the road. Bugger.
A fair bit of rocking back and forth from reverse to first got me off the bank, and very, very carefully continued on my way.
I’m not entirely sure how I’ll manage with my new car, as it’s a semi-auto, with paddles for manual override, and, while I’ve driven many, many miles over the last five years, I’ve not really driven much in snow with an auto, so not certain about engine braking, or how an auto copes with lifting off on a slippery surface.
Yet another reason to seriously consider cross-climates, either the Michelin or the Falken ones, which are a very similar tread pattern, as pointed out.
They are a bit cheaper than the CC’s, at least through Black Circles. I might get a better deal through the dealership I bought the car through, if they’d be open to taking the part-worns in exchange...
if you have a powerful vehicle, change them for summer tyres in warmer conditions. I destroyed two fronts in less than a year with my 300bhp front wheel drive hothatch.
Certainly driving style. Its motorbikes yes but my pal with a zzr1100 used to get much better tyre life than me with my lighter less powerful r1100rs. Really annoyed me. He got better MPG as well - this was on a 2000 mile ride where we rode together
Any first hand experience? According to tyre people I have spoken to , so long as you drive sensibly it’s fine to have all season on the drive wheels and normal on the rears.
Yup 😉
Always get all 4 now.
Certainly driving style.
not just driving style.
my old A3 TDi quattro ripped through tyres, particularly rears. rarely got more than 12K from a set.
my outback is on 18k on the current set and less than 50% worn. both ~140BHP diesels.
same roads, same commute, same speeds.
Some lease companies will allow winter tyres - a friend successfully lobbied them to - he did 50+k miles a year though - his argument was that he would wear them out before winter arrived - they were happy to allow it.
I’m still riding the wave of smugness from passing a Range Rover stuck in two inches of snow on a slight gradient three years ago.
I have to say that I really struggle to believe that is the full truth - yes I 100% agree that tyres make all the difference (having been a one-time off-road 4x4 enthusiast and having seen many modern 4x4s truly stuck in the mud at the Tong off-road track) but a Range Rover stuck in a little bit of snow on a slight gradient - I don't swallow that. My last few cars have been 4x4s (A6 Avant, XC60 and now a Merc GLC) and all have had standard manufacturer tyres fitted and never struggled in a little snow on a slight gradient (in fact I easily drove off the car park at Stainburn at the weekend when many 2WD cars were really struggling in compacted ice).
Ah but thats cause you have some training and experience on how to handle a car in less than ideal situations.
Most drivers wont have much or any experience driving a car in very low grip conditions. I also recon there is a large proportion of divers who don't even know the theory on how to drive in snowy conditions beyond "drive slowly as it's slippery".
They may also be too used to modern cars and the systems they come with to bail them out of trouble. A lot of these systems are very good but they can't always save you from being an idiot or in adverse situations.
Also anyone running a van and wanting to fit all season tyres, I fitted Pirelli Carrier All Season tyres to my camper this spring and I've been very impressed with them. They are similar to the Michelin cross climate tyres ie biased towards summer performance with enough winter performance to keep you moving.
They are quiet, grip well in dry and warm conditions. In horribly wet conditions they cleared water well and I'm yet to feel any of that floaty aquaplaning feeling from going through puddles, they just cut straight through the water with little drag on the tyre. In the cold they have remained tacky and are keying into the surface rather than going plastic and hard. It has not snowed or been very frosty over in my part of the world yet so not tied them in those conditions but tyre tests show they should considerably outperform a summer tyre in those conditions.
I prefer to run the tyres slightly above manufacture recommended pressures or nearer towards the heavily loaded rating, there appears to be less wallow feeling and more consistent feedback. There is a slight loss of comfort but the extra confidence you have is preferable for me and as I've only been driving normal road speeds I have not experienced any loss of grip from the higher pressures.
Anyone tried the Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons ones? My OH's Mini is in need of tyres and these look good. Trouble is, they cost more in her size (175/65/15) than some of the bigger sizes, presumably because there aren't many cars using this size.
I’m still riding the wave of smugness from passing a Range Rover stuck in two inches of snow on a slight gradient three years ago.
I have to say that I really struggle to believe that is the full truth – yes I 100% agree that tyres make all the difference (having been a one-time off-road 4×4 enthusiast and having seen many modern 4x4s truly stuck in the mud at the Tong off-road track) but a Range Rover stuck in a little bit of snow on a slight gradient – I don’t swallow that.
I totally buy it, witnessed a lady abandoning a Range Rover in similar conditions in Edinburgh, she clearly wasn't happy and was panicking. I've no doubt the issue was the driver, not the vehicle.
Running Crossclimates on all our 3. Tourneo Custom and Connect have the Plus and the camper on the Crossclimate Agilis. Woke up to 5" of snow on the carpark in Sestriere at the end of September. Old tyres wouldn't have got us off the carpark. The new ones got us off with ease and all the way to the valley bottom without having to fit the chains.
ATS always seem to have some deal going on them for more than two.
Yet another reason to seriously consider cross-climates, either the Michelin or the Falken ones, which are a very similar tread pattern, as pointed out.
They are a bit cheaper than the CC’s, at least through Black Circles. I might get a better deal through the dealership I bought the car through, if they’d be open to taking the part-worns in exchange…
We have Falken Euroall on both cars. IIRC the local place had them about £20 cheaper per corner. Clearly not STW first choice, but night and day compared to summer tyres... the post Christmas snow dump, we just got in the car and drove (at reduced speed, obvs).
Not sure I could tell the difference between them and the CCs, but I'm not trying to make progress in the snow in my antique Honda - just get where I'm going without incident. I guess the CCs use a marginally better compound or more sipes. Wonder if there's much difference when worn?
Anyone tried the Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons ones?
Yep, got the Gen 3s on our Skoda Octavia Estate. Only had them a month or so (based in Edinburgh) but they seem great (though that's only in comparison to the standard ones that were fitted previously). Not tried any other all season tyres though but they get v good reviews across the board
What Michelin say about Cross Climates
I have Cross Climates on my Santa Fe. On standard tyres, the traction was OK in snow for the last couple of years, but felt pretty sketchy.
The Cross Climates just feel good in all conditions - ice, snow, wet, dry. Really good tyres. I'd only swap them for equally good 4 season tyres in the future.
Failedengineer I’ve got these on my mini and can fully recommend. Handling is still excellent and they do an okay job in the snow, ice and slush. Quatrac All season.
£62 each, cheap enough to put on a set of 4.
@failedengineer
Full MemberAnyone tried the Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons ones?
Yes. I had a full set on my Octavia. Brilliant. Much quieter than the Bridgestone summers they replaced. Noticeably better on cold wet roads - no more wheelslip pulling away from lights. Great at clearing surface water. Excellent on snow.
I had the generation 2 version. Autoexpress rate the current Gen 3 as the second best all season.
Thanks, looks like it'll be the Goodyears, tyre noise is an issue with the Mini and these are better than most.
Autoexpress rate the current Gen 3 as the second best all season.
The Goodyear Gen 3s also won a recent Auto Bild All Season Tyre test: https://www.autobild.de/artikel/ganzjahresreifen-test-2020-205-55-r-16-18372699.html
Vehicle manufacturers consistently fit summer tyres to new UK spec cars. Modern winter tyres work better below 7 degrees, are fine in the teens and performance / wear rates only seriously tail off once the tarmac gets above 25 degrees. Standard fit 'summer' tyres are obviously better in warm conditions, they are built to cope with Greek heatwaves, but their compounds are too hard and tread patterns too radial to find decent grip in winter conditions, where grip is safety critical. Makes sense that some northern European countries require fitment of winter tyres.
It would be interesting to see the ratio of UK road surface temperatures where the tarmac was below 7 degrees or over 25 degrees for the morning or evening commute. Pretty sure the average will be fairly cool. Unless tarmac temperature is consistently high / dry, or the vehicle is being used for lengthy high speed motorway journeys, all season tyres are perhaps a better bet for much of the UK for much of the year. Winter tyres may even be a safer compromise than summer tyres for those of us in the northern / higher / wetter / colder bits. The Scottish Ambulance Service run winters year round and Police Scotland fit winters to all 2 wheel drive traffic cars between October and March. They work just fine and allow emergency response in all but the worst conditions.
Not sure if vehicle manufacturers are bound by legislation to fit summer tyres to UK spec cars but it does seem odd that all season tyres aren't OEM in a country with our average temperature and rainfall.
PS Cross Climate fan here as well.
not sure about historic data, but there is this:
Right now, the lower road surface temps are about freezing - and damp - just right for a nice hard OEM quality summer compound tyre (!)
It would be interesting to see the ratio of UK road surface temperatures where the tarmac was below 7 degrees or over 25 degrees for the morning or evening commute. Pretty sure the average will be fairly cool
Locally based on typical travel times it's about 9 months of the year where winters are the sensible tire..... different in the deep south I'm sure.
Don’t forget surface temperate is usually a fair bit higher than air temp so I suspect the tarmac being over 25c is quite coming from late March onwards.