[Closed] Creeping Americanisation of the English language on the BBC.

Ah nice one ernie..classic small minded Little Englander stereotype. Attitudes like that make me despair for this country. 😉

Come on let's have another..

Missoles??

What really gets on my wick is the geographical descriptions they use

There is a reason for that. A great many places in the US are named after places elsewhere in the world, and there are also duplicates. So they got into the habit of adding the state to US placenames, and now it's a convention. When the places are in other countries where the state is not as prominent or well known, they often put the country name.

It's really quite harmless.

nor appreciate the glorious sound of leather on willow

[img] [/img]

😯

It's really quite harmless.

It's a bit insulting though. When I can see the Eiffel tower, I really don't need to be told that I'm looking at Paris, France.

I'm fairly certain the average American doesn't need to be told either.

Really, it's not insulting. To Americans, by convention, the name of the place is Paris, France. So that's what they say.

They're not doing it cos they think you're stupid.

They refer to it as "Paris, France" to differentiate between it and all of [url= http://hubpages.com/hub/UnitedStatesParis ]these[/url]. It sounds alien to British ears, but it's quite sensible really.

[img] [/img]

They refer to it as "Paris, France" to differentiate between it and all of these

...and how many of them have a Eiffel tower? My point is not that they shouldn't distinguish it between the other places called Paris, just that it's pointless when the background has an obvious landmark like the Eiffel tower.

The can-I-get thing is all over the UK. I travel all over the country with work and don't see this as specific to any region. Heard as much darn sarf as oop norf.

Might as well go the whole hog, "can I get a kwarfee over here to go?" and don't say please either for true NYC authenticity.

I'm sure as a northerner with a regional accent I do horrendous things to the english language all the time. It still annoys the shit out of me.

Convention. Habit.

By your argument, it's redundant having "Paris" there as well. We should just remove the placename completely.

"can I get a kwarfee over here to go?"

I quite like "to go" in preference to "to take away." I use it all the time in places like Starbucks.

By your argument, it's redundant having "Paris" there as well. We should just remove the placename completely.

If there is an obvious landmark then yes. I see no reason to treat people as idiots.

What's the beef with "can I get..."?
I use it, or some variation of it, all the time.

The beef (sic) is that "get" is usually simply the wrong word.
"Can I get a coffee?"
"No, you stay on that side of the counter and I'll get a coffee for you".

ourmaninthenorth:

My work requires precision in language, which appeals to my pendantic nature

they're easier to understand than jocks and geordies though aren't they.

If there is an obvious landmark then yes. I see no reason to treat people as idiots.

Well, that's fine, but it's an entirely different argument to "well, the Americans are insulting us." Do you get similarly offended when it says "tea" on a pack of PG Tips, or "U2 at Glastonbury" on televised concert footage?

I see no reason to treat people as idiots

They're not.

As I said, they put the country name on there out of CONVENTION.

What's the beef with "can I get..."?
I use it, or some variation of it, all the time.

Can is also the wrong word. "May" I have is the correct phrase. "Can" = do I have the ability.

"Can I get" Nope - but you may have..........

A nice photo of Venice just to calm things down a bit. 😀
[img] [/img]
(Las Vegas, just to help the idiots.)

I quite like "to go" in preference to "to take away." I use it all the time in places like Starbucks.

"To go" sounds out of place to me here but not as bad as can-i-get. Which isn't even used across the US. It's a NYC term which implies your not asking for something your telling someone to get you something. It's a typically brash (rude) term born from a city where everyone lives on top of each other and never has the time of day. So when I hear someone in Winchester using it, cracks me up.

I suppose going into Starbucks in the first place leaves you open to it. But when a man needs free wifi in a strange city....

The beef (sic) is that "get" is usually simply the wrong word.

Yup.

It's a cultural thing. I've been in stores in the US with friends who've ordered with "yeah, I'll get a coffee (or whatever)," my reaction as a Brit was to think "oh, you think so?" Thing is, it's not thought of as rude over there, it's just how they use their version of the language.

The problem occurs when they come over here and say the same thing, innocently, and it jarrs. We think it's crass (and go running to the Internet) and they're left wondering what the hell our problem is.

"well, the Americans are insulting us."

Well that's not what I said though was it. If you read my entire post you'll see that I was refering to situations when it is obvious where the location is.

As I said, they put the country name on there out of CONVENTION.

And again, rather than cherry picking from what I said if you took the time to read my entire post, including the first bit when I said

If there is an obvious landmark then yes...

Although to be honest I'm starting to doubt the wisdom of the second part about not treating people as idiots.

I suppose going into Starbucks in the first place leaves you open to it

I find it much easier just to go with the flow. Which is better, walking in and ordering a "grande Americano with an extra shot to go please," or dithering at the till going "well, I'd like a coffee... just a large cup of regular coffee, fairly strong... no, that's too big... no, to take away... what? Skinny? What does that mean? Oh, no, that's fine. Why don't you sell Yorkshire Tea anyway? How much?! Do you take Green Shield stamps?"

If you read my entire post you'll see that I was refering to situations when it is obvious where the location is

Well I did read that. But (to be picky for a minute) what I in turn meant was that even if there is a famous landmark in the picture, the convention is to call it Paris, France. That's what the place is known as. I don't see why they need to go to the extra effort of changing the commonly used name of a place just to keep some grumpy old Brit happy.

The problem occurs when they come over here and say the same thing, innocently, and it jarrs.

Happens quite a lot. I had to explain to Mrs Grips for example that saying 'what?' when you've not heard someone is considered rude.

"well, the Americans are insulting us."

Well that's not what I said though was it

You said "What really gets on my wick is the geographical descriptions they use" and when challenged replied "It's a bit insulting." So, yes, that's exactly what you said. Is it not what you meant?

Although to be honest I'm starting to doubt the wisdom of the second part about not treating people as idiots.

The issue here is, you've complained about something, we've all explained that it's not really how you think it is, and now rather than going "oh, sorry, I didn't realise" you're trying to make it look like we're idiots for not understanding you.

You're welcome to your opinion, of course. Different things irritate different people. Such is the way of the world.

Oh I see!

When a foreign company opens here, we should use their language to make ourselves understood? Marketing men 1 England 0.

When a foreign company opens here, we should use their language to make ourselves understood?

You should use their language to describe their products, yes. Otherwise you end up as in Cougar's post. In Germany the food in McDonalds and Starbucks has English names. The coffee otoh has Italian names, just like it does at home. 'Go figure' as they say 🙂

Marketing men 1 England 0

That would only make sense if there was a battle going on - there isn't.

No one wants to be treated like an idiot, but some people aren't as knowledgeable as you think or would like. Mainstream media needs to be accessible to the mainstream, not just the self-professed "educated". It stinks of superiority to assume that everyone knows the Eiffel Tower is in Paris, France. The Cavendish Hospital - a very well known building for many - is in Buxton. You mean you don't know whether it's Buxton, Derbyshire or Buxton, Norfolk?! Ha, what an idiot

[EDIT - actually it stinks of superiority to assume NOT everyone knows the Eiffel Tower is in Paris, France. My bad, as they say :-)]

What really gets on my wick is the geographical descriptions they use

No I didn't that was stucol, although I do agree with the point.

Unnecessary descriptions are a bit insulting. Why have them at all? If there is a picture of the Eiffel tower I know that it's in Paris, the captial of France. I don't need a description of any kind to tell me that, and neither do most people.

It's a bit insulting." So, yes, that's exactly what you said. Is it not what you meant?

I didn't say that the "americans are insulting us". The fact that descriptions are used at all is insulting to everyone not just us.

When a foreign company opens here, we should use their language to make ourselves understood? Marketing men 1 England 0.

@mol

the whole coffee shop lexicon and image is constructed by marketing execs. That's why they don't have a simple S/M/L cup. That's why they ask if it's "to go". That's why they want the places to look like Central Perk.

It's a deliberate construction whether you see it or not.

It's a deliberate construction whether you see it or not.

Of course it is, and I do see it thanks.

But I do not see it as a competition against England.

@mol - your taking the post too literally. I mean the marketing men got their way.
This probably sums it up better than me..

http://www.fwdmarketing.co.uk/blog/tag/venti/

The marketing men always get their way, it's their job 🙂

If you don't like it, don't shop there - however they are always rammed so that should tell you something.

Nice link btw, but lolled at this:

Prof Rosenthal, being an English professor and therefore aware that such a clarification was unnecessary – plain is, after all, plain – declined to do so and, after some heated words, was shown the door

What a tool!

By the way, almost every espresso vendor uses a very similar terminology for drinks. Cappucino, espresso, latte, macchiato etc etc.

Ever asked for 'fries' at a fast food restaurant? How about ordering a fajita or burrito in a Tex-Mex restaurant instead of a wrap? Pasta al Arrabiata instead of tomato chili? Where d'you draw the line?

Just a couple of points:

In my original post, the two examples I used were chosen precisely because they are NOT in common usage in the UK.
I've never heard anyone use 'protest' or 'through' in the manner described, so why should the BBC promote these changes when there is no precedent amongst the general population to do so?
Another example is 'firefight', which also seems to have been adopted by the BBC. None of the people in the armed services I know use this word, it seems to be media driven.

I have nothing against the USA, in fact I like the place.
My comments about it being a 'despicable country' should be taken in the context of the post - I don't really believe that people saying 'swap out' should actually be shot either 🙂 .
However, 'can I get..?' introduces an unnecessary ambiguity - if a guest in my house asks if they can 'get' a cup of tea, they will be told to help themselves and pointed in the direction of the kitchen.

Using 'to go' in Starbucks is just ridiculous - in the vast majority of cases the people working there are not American.
I'm sure they have used 'to take away' for the majority of their lives, so just because they now work for an American owned company does not mean that they have suddenly forgot how to speak their native tongue.
If you rented a Chevrolet outside America would you suddenly start referring to the boot as the trunk? Do you call the taps in a UK Holiday Inn faucets?
And whilst were on the subject, precisely where do you want your coffee TO go?

As I said in the OP, I am perfectly aware that language evolves.
I've read the excellent 'Mother Tongue' (a very good book, as others have said) and am fully aware that American English has naturally evolved in a different way than the language we use in the UK.
However, I AM a grumpy old git and reserve the right to moan about change - it's what we do best.

And I usually read the Independent, not the Guardian 😀

When a foreign company opens here, we should use their language to make ourselves understood?

Ever ordered a Big Mac? Or do you go "one of those big beefburger things you do with everything on it?"

I order an Americano, or a Caramel Macchiato, or whatever, because [i]that's what it's called.[/i] Otherwise, you risk being misunderstood, and everyone else thinks you're an arse. I'll be halfway down the motorway with my frapaccino whilst you're still stood at the counter bellowing "chocolate milkshake" in an increasingly loud voice and randomly bemoaning why no-one else talks properly any more.

Of course it's marketing. It's been going on for years and it gets my back up too. But you make a choice. If it bothers you that much then don't visit these places, vote with your feet. You can't bring it down from within by kicking off when you can't order a "small" drink at the multiplex because they only offer medium, large and extra large. Once you've stepped through the door it's too late, they've won.

Using 'to go' in Starbucks is just ridiculous - in the vast majority of cases the people working there are not American.

This may be true, but they're trained by an American company. They understand it, I understand it, it's efficient communication. Isn't the raison d'etre of communication to be understood?

And whilst were on the subject, precisely where do you want your coffee TO go?

It's to go with me when I go. Clearly.

Using 'to go' in Starbucks is just ridiculous - in the vast majority of cases the people working there are not American

Lots of Starbuckses use 'take away', round by me anyway.

However, I AM a grumpy old git and reserve the right to moan about change - it's what we do best.

Quite right.

As an aside - have you ever used a slang word from a part of the UK other than where you are from?

So anyone trained by an American company should immediately start using American English when dealing with the public?

And yes, I do use slang, don't we all?

However, the American English promoted by the BBC is not slang.
They are directly replacing widely used standard English phrases where no precedent or requirement to do so exists.

I order an Americano, or a Caramel Macchiato, or whatever, because that's what it's called. Otherwise, you risk being misunderstood

That reminds me of my younger days travelling in Colombia. I didn't know a lot of Spanish, but I could generally make myself understood. After several days (weeks?) of eating chicken and rice I confess I craved junk food. When I got to the city I found a McDonalds. The milkshake was on the menu as a McShake, just like here, but for the life of me I could not find how to pronounce it to make myself understood. It certainly wasn't pronounced as we do in the UK or the US, and adding a Spanish accent to it didn't help either. I just ordered a Coke in the end. To this day I still don't know how Colombians pronounce McShake. 😆

By the way, almost every espresso vendor uses a very similar terminology for drinks. Cappucino, espresso, latte, macchiato etc etc.

Ever asked for 'fries' at a fast food restaurant? How about ordering a fajita or burrito in a Tex-Mex restaurant instead of a wrap? Pasta al Arrabiata instead of tomato chili? Where d'you draw the line?

er...they're nouns? There is a(n obvious) difference.

That's not what I said. If they're trained by an American company then they should [i]understand [/i]American English. And they do.

It's hardly a great leap, anyway; it's not like I'm speaking Klingon at them, I'm using phrasing that's [i]slightly different.[/i] Ooh.

but for the life of me I could not find how to pronounce it to make myself understood.

Oddly, I've had this in the US, trying to order spaghetti with "tomato" sauce at an Italian-themed fast food place(*). Tomato... to-ma-to... er, to-may-toe? Toh-maid-doe? That bloody red stuff, god damn it!

(* - Fazoli's, incidentally. Fantastic chain, you should go.)

btw - I do go in starbucks (for previously stated reasons) and ask for a large tea.
And never have a problem getting what I want.

I'm not calling for a starbucks boycot or saying how people should talk. I'm saying your use of that language is in compliance with starbucks marketing dept. I don't like to comply with marketing people because they are inherently evil, and it irks me when other people do.