[Closed] Creationist religious nutjob on R4 "One to One 9.30am"

For a bunch of self-confessed Atheists, you sure have taken up a lot of time, space and energy convincing yourselves of your non-belie

we are trying to convince them they are wrong not convince ourselves.

Go in education

Molgrips, your point about choosing to believe your wife loves you, would it then be right to say that unless you chose to believe that she loves you, you wouldn't be able to experience that love? you chose to accept the 'evidence' which again might not be considered to be 'true' scientific evidence that many in this thread are asking for, but still, it was plenty enough evidence for you to believe

That is exactly the point I was trying to make 🙂

As for evidence - the truth is essential un-knowable. It's a bit like Plato's cave - if you feel a great profound love for God, how do you know it's not just all in your head? How do you know someone hasn't spiked your drink with acid and MDMA?

The people who died for Jesus could have been motivated by divine love or just bonkers. There is really know way of knowing for sure.

I guess that's why they call it faith. Does that about close the thread?

As for evidence - the truth is essential un-knowable.

It's a bit like Plato's cave - if you feel a great profound love for God, how do you know it's not just all in your head?

How do you know someone hasn't spiked your drink with acid and MDMA?

we are trying to convince them they are wrong not convince ourselves.

I'm not, I just enjoy the discussion. If someone suddenly goes "oh, yeah" along the way that's just a bonus.

The lack of verifiable evidence should be a powerful enough argument for most rationally minded people.

Nonono. See, the thing is, some people have an evidence based world view. They are analytical and think that to believe something they need hard evidence.

But other people don't think like that. Let's face it, who the hell cares how the universe was created? Why don't I just choose the theory that makes me feel good? Why worry about whether or not it's true?

Don't conflate belief in God, religion and things done in the name of religion. Religious people do do bad things, but so do non religious people.

If you just go around thinking you're all smug and right with your science, and all religious people are just being dense, then you are never going to learn anything about human kind.

Atheists thinking religious people are stupid is exactly the same as religious people pitying atheists for not believing in God.

As for trying to convince people - I just want to progress the debate and get people thinking. It's cos I love you all... 😉

As for trying to convince people - I just want to progress the debate and get people thinking. It's cos I love you all...

With respect, you are turning into Simon Barnes.
And really, really not in a good way.

As for evidence - the truth is essential un-knowable

Is this your view of all postulated entities that have no physical proof or just for god mr physicist?

The only reason we have this debate is because you canno tprove a negative - its impossible as there is no evidence - do you describe all things of which you have no evidence as " we cannot be sure"?
Unicorns?

You should employ the same standards for theology as you do any other claimed physical entity.

PS they claim god is everywhere , in everything and its obvious so it really should be a piece of piss for them.
Its clearly bobbins and the we cannot be certain is only true in the sense we cannot be certain of anything if setting the bar stupidly high.
You cannot claim something , fail to show any evidence for it and then claim we cannot be certain - well you can but you are a fool

Why worry about whether or not it's true?

Religious people do do bad things, but so do non religious people.

If you just go around thinking you're all smug and right with your science, and all religious people are just being dense, then you are never going to learn anything about human kind.

Yes but we never blow ourselves up in gods name

Molly is just continuing the discussion, playing devils advocate*

*assuming that term means what I think it means

Don't conflate belief in God, religion and things done in the name of religion. Religious people do do bad things, but so do non religious people.

Yes. We know.
But the non religious don't do bad things and then use god as justification.

But other people don't think like that. Let's face it, who the hell cares how the universe was created? Why don't I just choose the theory that makes me feel good? Why worry about whether or not it's true?

Don't conflate belief in God, religion and things done in the name of religion. Religious people do do bad things, but so do non religious people.

If you just go around thinking you're all smug and right with your science, and all religious people are just being dense, then you are never going to learn anything about human kind.

Atheists thinking religious people are stupid is exactly the same as religious people pitying atheists for not believing in God.

Well you must surely all draw comfort that the leader of the most powerful nation on earth, commander of it's biggest army and arguably most destructive force, to this very day, believes in God.

See that post back there.. Ironic it was 911 just as I was about to counter it with the fact that the leader of their biggest opposing force also believes in God, some would argue the same God, but both think each other are evil.

*edited* life is too short to waste on negative feeling towards another, even if they are a Charlie Uniform November.....

Lovely, just because i made the same gag about you as you made about other people. Still,at least it prompted you to nearly express a thought.

just because i made the same gag about you as you made about other people

no it was the systematic stalking and trying to start arguments at every opportunity as if you had some personal crusade/grudge a while ago that formed my opinion of you and then you vanished for a bit and it was peaceful and lovely and now you've returned

i've missed you charlie, welcome back 😆

The thing is, as I've tried to point out a few times before, religion isn't some lovely harmless thing that we can let people get one with and mind our own business.

Religion mutilates children's genitals (Christians, in the UK), subjugates women, encourages homophobia, discourages safe sex and family planning, blows people up, starts wars, continues wars...

If you want to hack your children around because your god (which ever one of the many that is) says so, I think we all have a right to see some proof he/or she said that.

Well you must surely all draw comfort that the leader of the most powerful nation on earth, commander of it's biggest army and arguably most destructive force, to this very day, believes in God.

You think? Or does he just say that to appease the masses?

TuckerUK - Member
The thing is, as I've tried to point out a few times before, religion isn't some lovely harmless thing that we can let people get one with and mind our own business.

Religion mutilates children's genitals (Christians, in the UK), subjugates women, encourages homophobia, discourages safe sex and family planning, blows people up, starts wars, continues wars...

I'm becoming concerned with your fixation on children's genitals, this must be the third or fourth time now, are you a teacher by any chance?

And as to religion doing it, it's not religion, or God, it is stupid folks interpretation.

it's not religion, or God, it is stupid folks interpretation

Its sometimes stupid folk - Islamic suicide bombers for example. it sometime what the god says - homosexuality bad

Junkyard - Member
it's not religion, or God, it is stupid folks interpretation

it sometime what the god says - homosexuality bad

But the 'God' didn't say it did she? It was some mad mans interpretation and people were stupid enough to believe him.

So if it were to occur today and say Obama came down a mountain and told the American people God had spoken to him, would as many folk take it as gospel?

You'll be telling me L Ron Hubbard was wrong next.

[i]Ok Ok it was a troll that last bit, it just slipped out, I'll stop now[/i] 😉

The teacher in me wants to bother to get the biblical quotes that support their homophobia, treatment of women etc but experience teaches me some folk you just cant teach

Best not to, the scientist in me would want you to show me the causal link between what it says in the bible and the way people behave

Best not to, the scientist in me would want you to show me the causal link between what it says in the bible and the way people behave

No need.

If Christians were genuinely outraged by the hatred of homosexuals, beating of children, blatant anti-prawn propoganda and prejudice promoted in their main source of doctrinal knowledge, then they would have chosen another religion.
But they didn't.

If Christians were genuinely outraged by the hatred of homosexuals, beating of children, blatant anti-prawn propoganda and prejudice promoted in their main source of doctrinal knowledge, then they would have chosen another religion.
But they didn't.

Yeah, they all love it.

Best not to, the [s]scientist[/s]gentle enquiring troll in me would want you to show me the causal link between what it says in the bible and the way people behave

Your right we could never show any link between what the Bible says and how christains behave. I mean the bible says marriage is between a man and a womaan and that homosexuality is an abomination, they are campaigning to keep the gays out of marriage and quoting the bible as the reason but yeah we could not prove anything

Islam has 5 pillars of faith and you can see them pray 5 x per day and watch them do the haj but yeah it might just all be coincidence they are doing what the book tells them to

Islam has 5 pillars of faith and you can see them pray 5 x per day and watch them do the haj but yeah it might just all be coincidence they are doing what the book tells them to

Well, this is how we would look for a link, we look for folks who are muslim and see how many of them do those 5 things, then we see how many non-muslims do those 5 things, then we see if there is at least a correlation if not causality.

We could domthe same with homophobia, for example, look at christians, see if they are homophobic, then look at non-christian homophobes. That way we could see if homophobia was a 'christian' thing or not. Could do the same with what ever treatment of women you are specifically referring to.

am I the only one that thinks these threads are a bit meaningless at the mo

Well, this thread is meaningless, but then, so is everything...

We could domthe same with homophobia, for example, look at christians, see if they are homophobic, then look at non-christian homophobes. That way we could see if homophobia was a 'christian' thing or not. Could do the same with what ever treatment of women you are specifically referring to.

Sure, there's Christian and non-Christian homophobes; that particular problem is a 'people' problem.

What you're neatly glossing over is, the Christian faith is 'against' homosexuality and, topically at the moment, same-sex marriage; regardless of personal prejudice the flock are supposed to follow the faith and do what they're told. Now, this shouldn't matter, and as an organisation they can think what they like; however because the faith enjoys special privilege within our government, it means that we've effectively got a prejudiced lobby group with a direct influence on our laws.

am I the only one that thinks these threads are a bit meaningless at the mo

Why are you choosing to read something you think is meaningless? Go and ride your bike.

the Christian faith is 'against' homosexuality and, topically at the moment, same-sex marriage; regardless of personal prejudice the flock are supposed to follow the faith and do what they're told

This is why i was describing the approach above, it woild showmifmthe flock actually did what they were told in terms of disapproving of homosexuality, If we have a prejudiced lobby within government then it is the government which is at fault, not the church.

am I the only one that thinks these threads are a bit meaningless at the mo

Not at all. It keeps all the riff-raff in one, easily avoidable, thread.

I went to school to stop believing in imaginary friends - not to hook up with the same one as everybody else.

This is why i was describing the approach above, it woild showmifmthe flock actually did what they were told in terms of disapproving of homosexuality

*forgive me if you have,and let us know.

But the 'God' didn't say it did she? It was some mad mans interpretation and people were stupid enough to believe him.

So if it were to occur today and say Obama came down a mountain and told the American people God had spoken to him, would as many folk take it as gospel?

But isn't that the point that many have been trying to make, that 'the Word of God', as handed down over the ages, is always that of a human being, who says that God spoke to him, and that everyone should accept this unequivocally, because God hath spoken?
This is why I've never been drawn to any faith, I was brought up to make up my own mind, and nothing I've ever read or heard has led to me wanting to join any particular faith or religion. Buddhism is the closest, basically because its predicated on improving oneself by being a good human being, without needing the approval or instruction of some nebulous, invisible deity.
I've come to think in terms of there being an underlying natural 'force', for want of a better term, that keeps the universe going, kind of like one mind-buggeringly huge coral or jellyfish, where everything is just a tiny part of an infinitely enormous multi-cellular creature. Give the whole 'thing' a name, call it 'God' or whatever you like, Pantheism is what comes closest to my way of thinking.
It avoids arguing about who's right and who's wrong, because, in the end, it's just irrelevant. 😀
I'm still enjoying the whole debate, I'm really glad that its kept going this long without really descending into opprobrium.

now you may have a point here, how many xtians disagree with the churches homophobic standpoint and believe gay marriages should be legit?

They do indeed do this in the same way as 99% of catholics ignore the teaching on contraception

This makes them bad at following what god has said , it does not mean god has not said it.

If the majority of the flock disagreed surely the religious leaders wouldn't press the issue for fear of upsetting the flock?

of course people an do this in the same way as i could never ride a MTB again and still claim to be a MTB er- neither would be true.

This makes them bad at following what god has said , it does not mean god has not said it.

You mean you think God did say it? 😉

But, it does mean that the church does not have thisnnegative influence on people's behaviour.

Have to go,back and find the original post to which this referred.

Here!

The teacher in me wants to bother to get the biblical quotes that support [i][b]their[/b][/i] homophobia, treatment of women etc but experience teaches me some folk you just cant teach

You mean you think God did say it?

But, it does mean that the church does not have thisnnegative influence on people's behaviour.

Have to go,back and find the original post which this referred to.

Your right all you need to do is ignore what they say and what god says when its negative and not do it. I am not sure how this make you a follower of said religion.

Well this is a toughie, What makes you a Christian? Live your life like Christ? What did Jesus think about homosexuality? Some might say Jesus is love, and so long homosexuality was about love then it would be ok. Tough to say. What would Jesus do? As they say.

Not sure what makes you a CofE but i think Catholicism has a very minimalistic set of rules in doctrine.

CountZero - Member

But the 'God' didn't say it did she? It was some mad mans interpretation and people were stupid enough to believe him.
So if it were to occur today and say Obama came down a mountain and told the American people God had spoken to him, would as many folk take it as gospel?

But isn't that the point that many have been trying to make, that 'the Word of God', as handed down over the ages, is always that of a human being, who says that God spoke to him, and that everyone should accept this unequivocally, because God hath spoken?
This is why I've never been drawn to any faith, I was brought up to make up my own mind, and nothing I've ever read or heard has led to me wanting to join any particular faith or religion. Buddhism is the closest, basically because its predicated on improving oneself by being a good human being, without needing the approval or instruction of some nebulous, invisible deity.
I've come to think in terms of there being an underlying natural 'force', for want of a better term, that keeps the universe going, kind of like one mind-buggeringly huge coral or jellyfish, where everything is just a tiny part of an infinitely enormous multi-cellular creature. Give the whole 'thing' a name, call it 'God' or whatever you like, Pantheism is what comes closest to my way of thinking.
It avoids arguing about who's right and who's wrong, because, in the end, it's just irrelevant.
I'm still enjoying the whole debate, I'm really glad that its kept going this long without really descending into opprobrium.

There are so many conflicting trends and agendas, it's kind of difficult to pick up on what folk are saying or trying to say, it's a brave man who would declare faith on a thread like this in face of the big hitting atheist brigade, but you have only to see the two other poignant threads (suicide and lost son)running this last couple of days to understand why it is so important if only for our sanity at times to have something to believe in, or to seek solace within, be angry at, or attempt to reason. For what it's worth I'm inclined to similar Pantheist views, it also ties in with a couple of other experiences that have given me to conclude there is more going on than a communal garden atheist would believe.
Atheism as so often indicated here is one of the main weapons in the homosexual lobby, it's a dangerous pursuit to be politically propagated in a multicultural society such as ours, purely for the sake of sexual freedom as equally as the denial of its pursuit by the bigoted end of the Christian society, the outcome is peurile strife that clouds the quest for truth in my view.

Buddhism is the closest, basically because its predicated on improving oneself by being a good human being, without needing the approval or instruction of some nebulous, invisible deity.

Perhaps not a deity, but the use of the term 'good human being' is value laden, good by whose definition?

[b]CountZero[/b] - [u]Member[/u]

I've come to think in terms of there being an underlying natural 'force', for want of a better term, that keeps the universe going, kind of like one mind-buggeringly huge coral or jellyfish, where everything is just a tiny part of an infinitely enormous multi-cellular creature

We know.

[img] [/img]

Atheism as so often indicated here is one of the main weapons in the homosexual lobby, it's a dangerous pursuit to be politically propagated in a multicultural society such as ours, purely for the sake of sexual freedom as equally as the denial of its pursuit by the bigoted end of the Christian society, the outcome is peurile strife that clouds the quest for truth in my view.

Sorry, I'm having difficulty in parsing that sentence. Are you saying - actually, I'm not even going to guess, could you clarify for me please?

They do indeed do this in the same way as 99% of catholics ignore the teaching on contraception

*you might be right

...then they would have chosen another religion.

But the vast majority of people DON'T choose their religion. They take the religion of their parents or choose atheism.

igrf seems to have got various quotes of mine and his muddled up.
Oh, and Cougar, Apple just make desirable shiny toys, which I happen to like. I also like Sony shiny toys, they just don't make very many these days, sadly. The universe goes on without them, Samsung, or even you.

Atheism as so often indicated here is one of the main weapons in the homosexual lobby, it's a dangerous pursuit to be politically propagated in a multicultural society such as ours, purely for the sake of sexual freedom as equally as the denial of its pursuit by the bigoted end of the Christian society, the outcome is peurile strife that clouds the quest for truth in my view.

CZ > Don't take that first point seriously, I was only doing a funny.

The second, yes, I know, I just lumped the edits together. I do that sometimes, sorry if there was any confusion.

im guessing the plucked out of thin air percentage*

There's always people saying religions adapt in time so why can't this sort of thing be changed?

18:22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Junkyard,you still looking at Leviticus? There's been a new Covenant mate! You still watching stuff on Betamax too?