That's not Odin, it's his lad.
Always seem to come across these threads when its too late and they're fizzling out...
Haven't had time to read every post so forgive me if someone has posted something along the same lines.
If someone asked you to prove that your wife/partner loved you, you could tell them of a many instances examples where they have said/done something loving towards you. If they said that's not enough proof, you could invite them to your home to live with you for a few days, and see for themselves the love you share, but still, they could, and quite rightly, say that's not proof. It could after all be an act, all in your heads etc, at which point you'd probably feel pretty hurt and give up. You know your partner loves you, but maybe you can never prove it to anyone else.
In the same way I could invite you to my home, my wife and I could tell you all our experiences of God in our own lives and in the lives of people we know, we could take you to our church and show you many people who's lives have been transformed since coming to know God. I think you would have a better idea of what we were talking about, and how deeply our lives are effected by our God, but still, as in the above example, for some people that wouldn't be enough proof, and that honestly does make me sad, and makes me feel a bit like you would in the above example.
I could take you round to my house and show you my partner exists, though.
EDIT - sorry, that was a bit harsh. "Can you prove love" isn't a bad analogy really.
Oh dear, you were being serious.
I probably wasn't. Have you not seen my other contributions to this thread? 🙂
I don't think you understand the concept of 'proof'. I saw no 'proof' in that link. I'm probably not very bright, perhaps you could spell in out for me?
I found those two (hilarious) sites by Googling for "proof of God", but I have seen the first three of those five 'proofs' used in all seriousness by Frank Turek in a debate against Christopher Hitchens, [url=
YouTube[/url].
I probably wasn't.
Oh shit, sorry! (eek how small do I feel) 😳
I have seen the first three of those five 'proofs' used in all seriousness by Frank Turek in a debate against Christopher Hitchens
Oooh, poor guy. Sad really.
On the other hand
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Re: "love," above. And indeed, love above.
You can't really prove 'love', but you can demonstrate it. Going out of your way for someone, performing selfless acts, providing and caring for them, spending time with them and enjoying their company, looking deep into their smiling eyes... None of this is "proof" of anything in scientific terms, but it demonstrates that it probably is the case.
What you've just described, I think, is two-fold. What the church has done for you is a tangible thing, sense of community etc, Ro5ey was kind enough to share all this earlier. But that's not really much to do with 'god' I don't think, that's people, it's not much different conceptually to me hanging out with mates at the pub.
The second is how you've been "affected" by god; the problem here is it's entirely emotive on your part. You might 'feel god's love,' but he's not brought you breakfast in bed or given up his Saturday night with the Archangels to stay in watching weepy movies with you, so it's a lot more difficult to demonstrate. Exchanging mutual "love" with something that is, for all practical purposes, not there is a tricky concept to deal with. "God loves me!" How do you know? "I just know, I can feel it." Could be indigestion for all I know.
Sorry if that still sounds a bit argue-y, I'm just trying to explain why perhaps we have difficulties with it.
"Can you prove love" isn't a bad analogy really. You can't really prove it, but you can demonstrate it.
You can't hurry love...
We could monitor hormone levels and electrical signals in mine and my wife's brains/bodies, or use examples of our behaviour, etc.
God seems reluctant to get into an MRI scanner.
Also, I don't try to use my wife's love for me to dictate how others should live or behave.
good stuff Cougar
I don't know for sure that my wife loves me. She says she does and I believe her, because I want to, because I love her. Have a word with some of the divorcees on here. I am aware of the possibility that she's been lying to me the whole time.
If God is a woman, then yes she probably has (been lying to you).
Sexist.
Soon lesbians will be able to wonder if their wife loves them: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/jan/25/gay-marriage-bill-equal-treatment - great news.
I also wonder if this is going to call my sister's bluff, as she has said she won't get civil-partnership-married until it's a full-and-equal marriage... 🙂
Love between two people and the love of an individual for their God are not in dispute are they? The debate has been loosely about the creationist clap-trap that tries to pose for science and the generally negative effect organised religions have when they become more about their own self importance and power than about love, peace and all that jazz.
I imagine it must be pretty comforting at times to truly believe in God, actually, if not somewhat confusing if you ever think about why.
Cougar, some would say that the fact that Christians focus their time/love towards others, in helping those in need is indeed 'evidence' that something supernatural has happened to them, (especially if you knew them before and saw the change for yourself). But it depends what you consider evidence. For me, when I made my decision, I was won over by 'evidence' but you might be looking for a different kind of evidence to me.
I once spoke to a doctor of micro-biology that I know (who's a Christian) about evolution. He went into detail about how DNA is 'written' in proteins that only exist when there is already life... I must admit this isn't my subject and I'm out of my depth discussing it (as an electrical engineer myself) but my friend said that for him,despite knowing what he does, the greatest evidence wasn't scientific, but the fact that the first disciples were willing to die for their faith. They knew Jesus very well and had followed him everywhere, they saw it all first hand, and they were willing to die horrible deaths as 'heretics' for what they taught. For my friend, this 'evidence' was enough for him.
Molgrips, your point about choosing to believe your wife loves you, would it then be right to say that unless you chose to believe that she loves you, you wouldn't be able to experience that love? you chose to accept the 'evidence' which again might not be considered to be 'true' scientific evidence that many in this thread are asking for, but still, it was plenty enough evidence for you to believe 🙂
Incidently 1 John 4:8 says "Whoever does not love does not know God, because [b]God is love[/b]"
Will the thread end tonight? I keep thinking I won't look but keep getting drawn back in.
the fact that the first disciples were willing to die for their faith. They knew Jesus very well and had followed him everywhere, they saw it all first hand, and they were willing to die horrible deaths as 'heretics' taught. For my friend, this 'evidence' was enough for him.
Are the first disciples the only people who have died for their faith? Lots of cults end in mass suicides, and people have been willing to die for their country, friends or other non-religious beliefs.
Miketually, Yes, many have died for good causes, but would it be safe to say that unless you [b]fully[/b] believe in something, you wouldn't me willing to die for it? my point is that those disciples must have been fully convinced by what they saw, again, whats evidence to one person may not be evidence enough to another, to my friend , it is enough.
If every trace of any single religion were wiped out and nothing were passed on, it would never be created exactly that way again.
There might be some other nonsense in its place, but not that exact nonsense. If all of science were wiped out, it would still be true and someone would find a way to figure it all out again
“Believing there's no God means I can't really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That's good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around”
? Penn Jillette
Miketually, Yes, many have died for good causes, but would it be safe to say that unless you fully believe in something, you wouldn't me willing to die for it? my point is that those disciples must have been fully convinced by what they saw, again, whats evidence to one person may not be evidence enough to another, to my friend , it is enough.
But isn't this going back to the circular argument - in the bible the gospels say that the disciples died for their beliefs. Therefore the bible is true. I'm still not sure the disciples actually existed.
?
There are things I guess most of us would be willing to die for - look at the love parents show their children. I wouldn't know what I would be willing to die for - possibly another.
"If every trace of any single religion were wiped out"
But if you believe in God, you can believe that God would never allow that to happen.
I can't believe God allowed this thread to happen
Adam, the death of the first disciples isn't even covered in the bible except Stephen in Acts 7(there may possibly be more I'm forgetting) but they are documented in other historical texts
Phil - have just been peeking. Those other historical texts are not very reliable and were written hundreds of years after the 'events'.
For me it comes down to the burden of proof and the fact that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. If you told me there was a religious leader around 2000 years ago who got some disciples and was persecuted then I'd most probably agree and also think that it happened more than once to other religious folk.
If then, tagged onto the end was, 'and it was the son of the creator of the entire universe who was actually himself and got killed so that the original sin could be removed' then it moves into the 'extraordinary claim' territory.
As for evidence of this very extraordinary claim I have no idea what would prove it, in the context of all other religions, so the only answer I would have is "What you got?" 😀
I was won over by 'evidence' but you might be looking for a different kind of evidence to me.
I want the same evidence as when anyone postulates anything. I dont care how genuine they are in believing this be it a homoeopath or someone reading my aura. I dont know what kind of evidence you found but it is not real nor demonstratable
They knew Jesus very well and had followed him everywhere, they saw it all first hand, and they were willing to die horrible deaths as 'heretics' for what they taught. For my friend, this 'evidence' was enough for him
Forgive the Goodwin but a lot of nazis did this for Hitler
It proves nothing.
my point is that those disciples must have been fully convinced by what they saw
as above - it proves they believed [ of the accounts written 300 years after their death are to be believed. It does not prove they are correct any more than a suicide bomber dying for their faith proves they are correct.
historical texts
So is merlin/Arthur and in much the same way it was hundreds of years after his death. It does not make it true. When it is not even written at the time then we have to wonder how accurate the "word of mouth" is 200 years later.
You cannot prove god by the standards of proof we demand for other things. if you use that standard you can prove everything as long as folk are devout enough in thinking its true
Whit is yer favrite colurr?
Adam, fair point. Proving I've got the right one is a fair ask. For me, the bible itself is my evidence, together with what I've seen of the believers here today and the lives they lead. I guess its easier for me because I've been brought up in church and have seen 'faith in action' all my life. But I still had to come to my own decision, which I didn't take lightly.
The bible is a very special book. I've studied it for many years, and yet it constantly amazes me. the way things fit together so perfectly despite being written by many different writers over a vast period of time, to me it doesn't take much to realise its a supernatural book. I appreciate you don't want to spend years reading the bible, you want the answers now, and I don't blame you. But I can promise you this, time spent reading the bible with an open heart is never wasted time. Start with say with one of the four gospels and let me know how you get on. That's not just an invitation to you Adam, but everyone on this thread.
Gotta go now, on my way out.
some would say that the fact that Christians focus their time/love towards others, in helping those in need is indeed 'evidence'
Some would say it's "evidence", some would say it's a can of spaghetti hoops. You can't just provide evidence by redefining the word "evidence" to mean something else.
my friend said that for him,despite knowing what he does, the greatest evidence wasn't scientific, but the fact that the first disciples were willing to die for their faith.
That's only evidence if you believe in the first place.
Love ... of an individual for their God are not in dispute are they?
No, it's the love in the opposite direction I'm disputing. You can love any invisible friend you like, I'll be shocked if they love you back.
The bible is a very special book. I've studied it for many years, and yet it constantly amazes me. the way things fit together so perfectly
Sorry, I thought you said you'd read it. It's probably the single most self-contradictory text there is.
No, it's the love in the opposite direction I'm disputing.
For me, the bible itself is my evidence,
What even the bits we know to be factually wrong
. Start with say with one of the four gospels and let me know how you get on
Yes dont read leviticus
"All the fat is the Lord's." 3:16
Moses puts blood on Aaron's right ear, thumb, and big toe. 8:23-24
God's 13th Killing:
God kills Aaron's sons for offering "strange fire before the Lord." 10:1-2
Hares are unclean since they chew the cud. 11:6
Bats are just unclean birds. 11:13,19
Four-legged birds are an abomination to God. 11:20
Insects have four legs. 11:21, 23
Baby girls are twice as dirty as baby boys. 12:1-8
God's cure for leprosy. 14:2-32
What to do if "he that hath the issue spit upon him that is clean." 15:8
What to do "if any man's seed of copulation go out from him." 15:16-18
Menstruating women are unclean to God. 15:19-30
God's law for wet dreams. 15:16-17, 32
Don't look at any naked menstruating women. 18:19
Homosexuality is an abomination to God. 18:22
Don't mix seeds when sowing a field or wear a garment with mixed fibers. 19:19
If you have sex with a slave woman, you must then scourge her. 19:20
Don't round the corners of your head or mar the corners of your beard. 19:27
Children who curse their parents, adulterers, and homosexuals must be killed. 20:9-12
Woman with "familiar spirits" must be stoned to death. 20:27
The unchaste daughters of priests must be burnt to death. 21:9
Handicapped people must not approach the altar. 21:16-23
God's 14th Killing:
A man curses and blasphemes while disputing with another man. Moses asks God what to do about it. God says that the whole community must stone him to death. "And the children of Israel did as the Lord and Moses commanded." 24:10-23
God's instructions for buying slaves. 25:45-46
"Ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it." 26:16
God will "send wild beasts among you, which shall rob your of your children." 26:22
"And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." 26:29
God places a dollar value on human life; women are worth less (50 - 60%) than men. 27:3-7
You can love any invisible friend you like, I'll be shocked if they love you back.
It was funny but putting it twice is the sin of vanity 😉
C&P error; fixed now, TY.
It's not arrogant to say that you can't figure out the answers to the universe.
It's not arrogant to know that there's no omniscient, omnipotent prime mover in the universe who loves you personally.
It's not sad to feel that life and the love of your real friends and family is more than enough to make life worth living.
Isn't it much sadder to feel that there is a more important love required, that demanded by your god, than the love of the people who have chosen to spend their limited time with you
If every trace of any single religion were wiped out and nothing were passed on, it would never be created exactly that way again.There might be some other nonsense in its place, but not that exact nonsense. If all of science were wiped out, it would still be true and someone would find a way to figure it all out again
such deep and original insight is rare!
such deep and original insight is rare!
lol, I love you too, you piss taking wee scrotey. unfortunately I'm far to much of dobber (as well you know and often point out) to have come up with such a clever thing and it is the words of the rather eloquent penn gillete wot I stole and put up here.
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...
Im sure he would of been a mountain biker too.....
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Cartoons! because they are a lot easier than thinking!
But I can promise you this, time spent reading the bible with an open heart is never wasted time. Start with say with one of the four gospels and let me know how you get on. That's not just an invitation to you Adam, but everyone on this thread.
Don't forget the Quran, the Sutras, the book of mormon and Tao Te Ching too. Got to open your heart to all of them.
*edited* life is too short to waste on negative feeling towards another, even if they are a Charlie Uniform November.....
don't get all upset, it's just the same joke [i]you [/i]made
i think he may have been subtlety suggesting that quote has been used several times already in this thread.such deep and original insight is rare!
it has of course been edited and re-edited quite a few times and had stuff removed, bit bizarre that they still haven't managed to sort out the contradictions, removed the really silly bits and clarify the contentious stuffthe way things fit together so perfectly despite being written by many different writers over a vast period of time,
it certainly is an incredible bit of text, seems that you can use it to prove/argue your case whatever that is, even more amazingly someone diametrically opposed to you can also use it to argue [b]their[/b] case. Astounding bit of literitchoor. But not supernatural.to me it doesn't take much to realise its a supernatural book.
For a bunch of self-confessed Atheists, you sure have taken up a lot of time, space and energy convincing yourselves of your non-belief and denouncing those who do. I'm not sure whether to applaud you, cry or laugh. I'm opting for the latter. Go in peace people.
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+1 and 900 (good grief)
