Try Vocation brewery online - I picked up some black Friday beer deals and it works out at ~ £1.30 per 330ml tin.
They often have similar deals.
Craft brewers don’t have finance directors, they have brewers who are slightly less shit with numbers who in turn have a drawer in their office stuffed full of cash and petty cash vouchers
Is that a fact
I usually drink (and brew) heavily hopped beers, and that comes at a cost.
I think that hop forward beers degrade less that a similar beer in bottles, due to the cans being purged before sealing. From my own brewing experience, things like NEIPA's loose their flavour very quickly in bottles, and these styles are the current vogue beers.
Hi
Well , How much detail do you want me to go into?
The market is swinging slowly away from glass to cans , not just 330ml, but 440ml , 500ml and 568ml pint cans.
They offer so much more to the brewer , retailer and consumer.
Advertising space , packaging , product safety ( no glass shards in your beer ) low DO levels as reduced headspace helps there.
Price wise , more capex to buy in the hardware to fill efficiently. Double purge to redox , fill , ream , pack , dispatch.
As for the beer itself , if small pack or draught it gets expenssive to load up those big juicy hop flavours . The hops are mainly American or Aus /NZ so shipping costs as its gotta be refrigerated . UK hops just cannot deliver the range or depth of flavours . Uk hops £10/kg , Citra £32 and most non europe hops £20+
Malt .- We do make world class barley here so its not so expensive and the range of price is minimal. Lactose is expensive mind, unfermentable base sweetner. Some German specials are around £1000/T , most UK malt £650 - £750 tonne.
Yeasts , bang the price up . More ethanol = more sugars = more malt + more yeast. Used to be cheaper , expensive now.
Water. Costs a packet if your not on in house brown water treatment. settling tank or pond, bullrush beds etc
Electric .- Huge money each month , imagine its 28'c and you need a vessel holding at 1c. In an industrial unit with a 200KW gas burner running. Canning has to be done with beer very near freezing point due to partial pressure , Co2 breakout , fobbing etc
Accreditation . Costs a load to get the neccesssary food safety audits completed each year ( sending away scales to be calibtrated , temp monitors etc )
Beer duty , below 2000HL pa half price for micro breweries , slides up but expotential curve once over 2000Hl. Double duty on 7.5%abv and up.
Labour . Biggest cost for small scale craft brewers , we simply cannot match or even get close to an automated brewhouse where the brewer sits behind a touch screen and hopes the hoses are all connected correctly ( they use load cells and flow meters everywhere )
Bigger outfits have canning lines , small guys contract it . we pay 34p a can , but have to ship it there , and back ( costs more as its is now heavier ) and pay to get out empty shipping containers returned.
Labels . Textured labels cost more . screen printed cans , 10,000 minimum run length. TBF not alot in it once you order 20k+ labels the price flattens . No idea on screen printed can costs we aint that big.Artwork origination , cutters etc all adds up.
So , Everything costs more but beer has never been as eclectic or as high quality as it is today. The new breed of unfiltered and unpasteurised beers neccessitate very clean breweries and good handling practise . Hops are expensive and you need alot , oxygen will reduce those heady hop aromas in weeks so cans help enormously, and ascorbic acid.
Thornbridge do great beer , Vocation , Verdant too . Is it expensive ? I dont think so. These beers are not 'down in one' Carling piss.( apologies to Bill ) Brewed to be enjoyed and satisfying so that perhaps just 1 can will do of an evenning with dinner.
Rob
No beard brewer
Craft brewers don’t have finance directors, they have brewers who are slightly less shit with numbers who in turn have a drawer in their office stuffed full of cash and petty cash vouchers
I will take offense at that.
Most dont have an office with a desk and draws . Theres no cash , thats all gone to HMRC and the hop merchants.
If you think the craft beer you drink is expensive, spare a thought for us over here: https://www.systembolaget.se/sok/?categoryLevel1=%C3%96l
Tip: "Falcon" is the shit stuff. Some thing with Pripps. Poppels is a decent medium brewery that does decent beer, Tempel, Uppsala Brygghus and Upp are both local and small batch.
They offer so much more to the brewer , retailer and consumer.
And one huge disadvantage. tinned beer is nasty compared to bottled. You get a nasty metallic taste
I believe modern cans are plastic-lined, which actually makes them harder to recycle.
It's a lacquer that's sprayed inside the can. Different lacquers for different markets. Without the lacquer the aluminium would taint the beverage and the beverage would corrode the can, especially the citrus based drinks.
It doesn't affect the recycling process.
And one huge disadvantage. tinned beer is nasty compared to bottled. You get a nasty metallic taste
That hasn't been true for many years now
Pour it into a glass then .
Modern cans are treated to remove aluminium pick up. Its probably from the outside of the can. I havent noticed any sharp mettalic flvours in any cans I have had recently.
Thinking about it metal is a known off flavour , imparted from incorrect use of tanks / pipes or malt thats got wet and or been badly stored although thats usually mycotoxins but maybe the flavour is a result of mycotoxins
And one huge disadvantage. tinned beer is nasty compared to bottled. You get a nasty metallic taste
Oh bore the **** off teej.
I've noticed the "craft" beer creeping up in price over the last few years as it's become more mainstream. There's a correlation of price increase to mass production from Lidl Green Gecko £2.18/L to Brewdog Punk £4.55/L to local Deya craft brewer at £6.66/L. The Deya isn't 3 times better than the LIDL, though it is nice, but the LIDL is very drinkable.
flavour is a result of mycotoxins
In TeeJ’s case, it’s very much psychological.
Actually, while you’re here @singletrackmind, what are your thoughts on the Flavourly “collaboration” beers? Eg I’m currently starting into a case of Flavourly + Hilden collaboration case; bitter, pilsner, pales, etc. Quite a few breweries seem to be doing them for Flavourly. All kosher? Breweries still making decent money out of them?
And one huge disadvantage. tinned beer is nasty compared to bottled. You get a nasty metallic taste
It's in your mind. The kegs that go to pubs are made of metal. They're not wooden barrels any more. Does every beer you've ever had at a pub or bar taste metallic?
Thing is there is such a big variety these days which is awesome so there is a decent craft beer at every price point. Even the stuff that Aldi is doing at the moment is pretty good and you can't say that is not cheap. Thornbridge is one of my favourite breweries and the stuff they sell via Tesco is pretty reasonable...there is usually an offer on for multi-buys making them even cheaper and for the quality you are getting it's a no-brainer.
Hmm
If they have done a deal with Flavourly then probably not. It will be a volume exercise to reduce the manpower cost per unit and / or enable bigger production runs to pick up cost savings enabling every other can bought costs less ( if the costs are absobed ie no extra overtime ) to make. So the DTC cans cost less and make you more.
The collabs are interesting and some are really good . You can get a meeting of minds , or access to a bit of kit that you dont own , like a hop torpedo or a heated mash tun .
I know my beers would all be better if brewed elsewhere as i work with basic 1980's kit.
Cuckoo brewers do similar , find a brewery thats making a great stout for example and brew a stout on their kit and rebrand . The cuckoo brewer takes advantage of the other brewers water compostion for example or RO plant
Not sold to flavourly , but with the state of the uk pub trade any output would be a blessed relief as its going to be a very loooooong January and Febuary with pretty much zero sales
though it is nice, but the LIDL is very drinkable.
Tried that Green Gecko twice now and it has a very odd flavour. Also tried their ‘Plunged Orange’ yesterday as I’ve recently developed a very keen taste for FourPure’s ‘Easy Peeler’ @ £1.48 a can (on offer lately) so was looking at Lidl (99p) as a backup when the Easy Peeler goes back to £1.90
I can’t even say that the Lidl beer tasted half as good as (for me) tasted like that canned ‘Tartan’ bitter, yet infused with overpowering orange-flavoured chewy sweet flavouring)
I’ll stick to the Easy Peeler (cans) and Shipyard (bottles) and drink half as often as I actually very much enjoy them. That means a lot to me as generally draught/cask-conditioned ale doesn’t have that sugary/tinny taste that for me seems to make nearly all bottled/canned ales taste alike? For this reason I usually choose a bottle/can lager over a bottle/can of ale - even though I prefer ale (draught) so finding bottled/canned beer that is not only drinkable but enjoyable - is massive!
Also support the local micro-brewery (who installed a canning machine lately) and they have a long-standing range of bitters, stout, and some excitingly-hopped ales.
We are spoiled for choice. Agree with the comments of drinking habits changing. Although for me it comes with age and budget allocation. Old days - 3
-4 pints of Enville Ale or Bathams Bitter in the pub with friends, £1 a pint! Being a lightweight I’d be fairly tipsy after 4. £4! A bag of nuts and a night out was therefore a fiver.
These days - a tin or bottle or 2, while watching the box. There goes £2-£4. If riding with friend/s then a pint and half max (draught) in beer-garden. This latter is now by far IMO the best way to enjoy regular beer, ie mid-ride, with company - a well kept cask-conditioned session ale quaff, natter, talk bikes and then off riding again with that warm glow ‘beer boost’ that seem to be helping 🍺🍺🚵🏼♂️🚵🏼
And one huge disadvantage. tinned beer is nasty compared to bottled. You get a nasty metallic taste
That's not the tin it's in, it's the Tennants crap you drink North of Berwick. 😉
One weird thing I've seen that suggests there's a huge amount going on with the market outside of the producers (breweries).
Brewdog pub in Edinburgh at Lothian Road charges about £6 for a pint of Punk IPA. The Wetherspoons across the street is about £4.20 for that same pint. Considering Brewdog are vertically integrated and own their own bar without any middlemen, the conclusion seems they are taking the piss.
And one huge disadvantage. tinned beer is nasty compared to bottled. You get a nasty metallic taste
And exactly what do you think beer is fermented in and stored in before bottling and canning? What are kegs made out of in pub cellars? What material are the pipes through which beer is pumped to the packing hall?
I spent 5 years working in beer canning and bottling plants owned by pretty well all the UK's biggest breweries so I know what goes on.
the conclusion seems they are taking the piss
That assumes they're paying similar rent, rates, wages etc.
That they're making the same money on dry sales, coffee etc.
They're selling similar volumes etc.
They're probably not in any of those cases.
Also it assumes when you buy a pint in brewdog or Wetherspoons or a burger in McDonalds vs five guys or where ever, that all you're paying for is product. You're not. Your paying for a brand, for a space, for a design, an atmosphere and so on. I'd rather not drink in a Wetherspoons, is it taking the piss to charge more because I exercise that choice? No absolutely not, the price will of course influence my choice but they bank on that and it keeps people who would rather pay less and drink in somewhere less "pleasant/snobby/****y" going elsewhere.
The value in anything is what the market will pay, costs are broadly irrelevant. Its why milk is sold at less than cost, coffee needs RFA, bananas fair trade, audis cost more than skodas, a 2nd hand golf costs more than a passant and a house costs vastly more than just the bricks etc.
Once in a glass I challenge anyone to taste whether it came from a can or bottle.
I agree with the original sentiment though, give me a proper amber or dark ale any day other that over hoppy craft rubbish.
Most of the small breweries round my way are selling in cans now. I generally like them, but somehow I just can't get on board with the pint cans! They look wrong somehow, too tall... the proportions just aren't harmonious.
@dangerourbrain - I get where you're coming from, but Brewdog have pulled a number on you. The difference behind the business and the presentation of the business is absolutely gigantic.
I mean, they've got you (a bystander) arguing with folk on the internet to pay 50% more for the same product. Total genius. A true culture war where we show our allegiance by giving more money to people. I wish I had thought of it.
Its not in my mind - its when you drink from the can compared to drinking from a bottle. Same as a metal cup taints the taste of anything you drink from it
Its barely noticeable if you pour it but its still there. anyone who says different has poor tastebuds 😉
I get where you’re coming from, but Brewdog have pulled a number on you. The difference behind the business and the presentation of the business is absolutely gigantic.
I think you do me a disservice, or more to the point, I think you and I would disagree on some fairly fundamental philosophy best discussed over beer, not over a thread about beer. 🙂
It could possibly be the top of the can TJ can taste. It certainly isn't the inside.
oxygen will reduce those heady hop aromas
Depends how far away the brewery is and how strong the wind is - there’s a brewery not that far from one of our car storage sites at work, that lovely yeasty aroma mixed with hops has me salivating whenever the wind’s in the right direction. Not managed to pin down which brewery it is yet, though.
As regards choice, Morrisons seems to keep a fairly good range of bottled beers from various established breweries, but I can’t be arsed with the so-called ‘craft’ stuff - any decent brewery is producing ’craft’ beer, pretty much by definition, surely, as compared to the stuff produced in industrial quantities in what look like oil refineries.
I’m blessed with also having a local farm shop that stocks a wide range of beer, cider and gin from regional producers, although the one I’m drinking at the moment is anything but local! It’s from County Antrim, Hillstown Brewery Massey Red, 5.2%, and its lovely.
https://www.hillstownbrewery.com/
Even the stuff that Aldi is doing at the moment is pretty good
Aldi has been doing good beer for a long time, up here at any rate. Fallen make some good stuff and they always have something by West.
the conclusion seems they are taking the piss
That assumes...
Oh believe me, they are. Just look at the "value" being a shareholder brings, a pack of Punk at a higher price than you can pick it up for in Tesco. I get what you're saying but all that aside they do rip it.
The shareholder thing did strike me as a bit of a con and was, according to a friend in Bristol, better when they first offered them. I took shares in Poppels when they issued them a couple of years ago and have not really had any benefit from them, but the main point of their issue was to raise capital for new equipment. It paid off for them and they are doing consistently good beer in more volume than before.
Brew dog did release the recipe book for their beers if you fancy making your own; DIY Dog or something.
I have visions of TJ licking the tins and bottles in the supermarket to see if they taste okay before buying the beer. Damn Covid, there's a point to prove.
🙃😜🤔
Ever wish you hadn't started a thread!!? 😬😬
I get the economies of scale for small local brewers - they can never compete on price. But the brewers who supply supermarkets have got to have decent production facilities to meet the demand. It's not Dave and his mate out the back of the local pub!
I still think they've looked at whats happened in the Gin market and thought we'll have a slice of that. Sell the brand, up the image, slap some more flavours in and charge a premium for it.
Wasn't that long ago when Gordon's was the standard gin - that was the Gin and then there was the cheap stuff you got it the petrol station. People don't think twice about paying 4 or 5 times the price now. The marketing has been brilliant.
I thought that mobile canning (basically a canning factory on the back of a truck) was driving the move to tins instead of bottles, maybe that's not true?
The 5.2% was UK brewed to 2008,at which point it was dropped to 4.8%, then 4.6 this year.
That's not how I remember it (and I worked for Whitbread) UK brewed was 5.0% (by Whitbread then Interbrew then Inbev or whoever). Imported was 5.2% and was only distinguished by a white foil covering the cap and neck of the bottle (and obviously the small print /abv etc).
Hop House 13 has gone the same ABV route. At 5% it wasn't a bad drop.
It has been "taste remastered" but now 4.6% and just tastes bland. One to avoid unless very cheap.
I get the economies of scale for small local brewers – they can never compete on price. But the brewers who supply supermarkets have got to have decent production facilities to meet the demand. It’s not Dave and his mate out the back of the local pub!
But that is the exact challenge. Alot of these breweries are Dave and his mate out the back of a local pub then the demand explodes and they win a contract with a major supermarket, then they've got to expands massively. BrewDog didn't exist before 2007 and in 13 years their expansion has been massive and they have a global footprint with production facilities in the US and Australia, and so many decent companies go bust because they get their expansion strategy wrong...they either expand too fast or slow and can't manage costs during expansion. Just managing your supply chain is hard...you can't just ring up your grain and hops suppliers and increase your order by 5000%. Or order a huge industrial brewing system one day and have it delivered and up and running inside of 6 months.
It's still a very young industry and massively fragmented. Most of the current micro breweries wont survive and the market will settle down. There will be those targeting the more pricy premium end of the market and others that wont, so there will be choice, which is a good thing.
Hop House 13 has... been “taste remastered”... now 4.6%"
If that's true then that will never see the inside of my shopping trolley again. ****puffins! It wasn't a bad beer either!
🤣 @ TJ licking bottles and cans to "prove a point".
Probably actually easirr to buy a semi sutomated brew plant than trying to source the hops you needvto bree consistently on it
Its the supply v demand curve with breweries putting in forward contracts up to 5 yeard hrmce to guarentee supply, leaving very little for anyone else
Ssy you brew a beer, lets call it Repeat Offender and its got Simcoe Galaxy and Citra on the recipe. It takes off and everyone loves it. You simply cannot even brew it another 5 times as the hops you bought on spot markets have sold out.
Yes mobile canning is also helping to drive the move to cans, its effectively a route to market anf is fine for small volumes. Just takes space time and manpower to get the best from those guys.
The range in Saino's is seriously lacking compared to their rivals.
As for 'Craft' beer. I hate the term, it's a marketing thing. Beer is beer, the only difference is that 'craft' beers generally have more hops in.
That's what makes them more expensive, as hops ain't cheap. I do a bit of homebrew and if I want to copy a Verdant beer than I'm looking at 22g/litre which works out at a cost to me of about £1.40 a litre just for the hops!
As for cans, it's a more efficient way of transporting the beer. There's less deadspace in the pallet and the load is better spread as the weight of the upper rows aren't borne by the necks of the bottles on the bottom. Also, accountants, 'cos cans are cheaper.
There seems to be a growing trend back to 440s at the moment which I hope continues as it'll mean a lot less trips to the fridge. Talking of which it must be beer-o'clock by now.
Also beware of fake craft - Beavertown is Heineken now and Magic Rock is owned by Lion - just to name a few.
Does having the cans printed with snazzy graphics designed by a A level student after a night on drugs make them 50% betterer! 🙂
Give me those any day. Much betterer than what yer average real ale brewery used to come up with.
Emperor's new clothes. If it was £1.50 and called Super it would be seen as tramp juice
Cans are better for recycling
I prefer bottles.
The price increase to cans pisses me off as they are cheaper in so many ways.
This thread convinced me to visit another supermarket from the usual aldi and Sainsburys. So went to Morrisons and can not believe how much better the beer selection is, I knew Sainsbury's was bad but didn't realise how much. Came away with a great selection and will definitely be going back before Christmas for more.
Glad it's not just me that's disappointed with Sainsbury's beers. I hardly shop there tho, Tory donors.
Aldi is good, tinned beer is good, some of it is ripping the piss on price tho.
I'm probably happiest with 500ml, ideally in a bottle. 330ml even 6% can be consumed too quickly and unnoticed.
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greentricky
Free MemberThis thread convinced me to visit another supermarket from the usual aldi and Sainsburys. So went to Morrisons and can not believe how much better the beer selection is, I knew Sainsbury’s was bad but didn’t realise how much. Came away with a great selection and will definitely be going back before Christmas for more.
If you’re anywhere NW England, go visit a Booths Supermarket.
They could kick Morrison’s into last week
