[Closed] Corporal punishment in schools

One of my local schools has isolation suites for naughty students.

Its within the Inclusion Centre. They are rooms with a desk, a chair and a window with an external curtain on them. The doors aren't locked but the students aren't allowed out, unless it's for break (and probably toilet).

They are hated by all that have to go in them. A camera keeps an eye on the students and they can spend a week or more there depending on what they have done.

It works for some, others like the isolation and for the rest, it gets them away from the others and keeps attention away from them.

25 years ago 80% of British Telecom payphones were unusable due to vandalism. 25 years ago the UK was ~7 years into a decline in the crime rate - which continued for another ~18 years. [See British Crime Survey]. It's pretty amazing to hear 1986 being described as some sort of social high point in the UK.

My brother was assaulted by teachers at school 25ish years ago but his son isn't today. [i]Bizarrely[/i], and I know this will be shocking to some, there were still boys carrying knives, beating the crap out of each other, playing rubbish music, being silly on the bus and failing to hold doors open for their elders under both systems.

Perhaps corporal punishment of children should only be permitted after the parents have been beaten. After all, if the kids are behaving badly, that just shows the parents have been delinquent in bringing them up, right?

By the way - anyone considered whether teachers are actually prepared to start beating children? (I know a few - and they're not).

If you're being a bit loud/a bit of a nob down the pub and the barman/bouncer takes offence is it OK for them to give you a bit of smack about before sending you home?

I'm not suggesting it's a good system and wouldn't be prone to abuse - but considering it would usually be a sober adult chastising a drunk adult for their conscious behaviour, it would seem fairer than having adults batter children for behaviour they might not be mature enough to understand.

Kona - Yep things were not perfect back in the day, but at least kids respected teachers, now they dont.

By the way - anyone considered whether teachers are actually prepared to start beating children? (I know a few - and they're not).

Kona - Yep things were not perfect back in the day, [u]but at least kids respected teachers[/u], now they dont.

And I was considerably more frighten of my father than I was of any teacher - his violence was completely arbitrary, and relentless when it occurred.

That kind of puts your previous comments in perspective, ernie. I'm sorry to hear that 🙁

Yep things were not perfect back in the day, but at least kids respected teachers, now they dont

Do you think it was respect? I don't. I hated and feared the teacher that hit me, I didn't respect him. I cannot see how hitting people does anything other than make violence appear acceptable, thereby increasing violence within society rather than reducing it.

i remember my dad loling in head teachers face telling him that he left school at 14 and earns 10 times a year more than he did...i didnt finish school, still did uni though...they were wrong..

OK, I'll bite.

Seems your dad did a cracking job of teaching you respect for authority. What a diamond you are. I take it that spelling and grammer weren't very high priorities on the curriculum at the "university" you went to. Was it a "special" educational establishment?

My brother was assaulted by teachers at school 25ish years ago but his son isn't today. Bizarrely, and I know this will be shocking to some, there were still boys carrying knives, beating the crap out of each other, playing rubbish music, being silly on the bus and failing to hold doors open for their elders under both systems.

Couldn't agree more. Saw some hideous violence when I was at school in the (very) early 80's. Not teacher on pupil assaults but violence between peer groups. Would definiately cause consternation even now.

By the way - anyone considered whether teachers are actually prepared to start beating children? (I know a few - and they're not).

Mrs. C is a teacher so I do have a fair few representatives from the education system in my circle of friends. On the rare occasion that this has been raised the number of teachers who would be prepared to administer corporal punishment usually hovers around the zero mark.

Ok respect maybe the wrong word. However kids were more controlled, No? Same as rioters in it. If you dont fear the Police then you riot, if you know your going to get hit with a big stick then your less likely to riot.

I take it that spelling and gramm[b]e[/b]r weren't very high priorities

Oh, teh ironing....!
[img] [/img]

This thread seems to be a long non-sequitur. As if unruly kids and riots never occurred when we had corporal punishment!

@CFH

😳

(Git)

I remember teachers who never had a problem and never raised their voice, let alone used discipline

This. Violence is the last resort of people who have already lost control. It doesn't work in the long run.

I'm glad we live in a world where people might actually be trying to solve problems rather than just hitting those smaller than themselves.

Aye, looking back to my time in school, I think i was quite lucky teacher wise. But there were a few that you could just tell would be using the belt every 5 minutes or so if they were able to, basically the ones who didn't know how to engage a class and keep it entertained.

Rather than bringing back something completely negative like the belt, I'd much rather there was a focus on learning how the good teachers manage to control a class without raising their voice(by making it interesting), and put in some controls to weed out the people who really shouldn't be in a classroom. I think that would make a much bigger difference to our education system.

i'd much rather there was a focus on learning how the good teachers manage to control a class with out raising there voice(by making it interesting) and put in some control to weed out the people who really shouldn't be in a classroom.

If you dont fear the Police then you riot, if you know your going to get hit with a big stick then your less likely to riot

Err - how do you square this with the experience of the 1980s where one of the key drivers of the riots was anger at the police for arbitrary use of force?

BTW, if anyone remembers or wants to discover the Scarman Report into the Brixton riots, it'll show how quite how un-unprecedented all of this is.

I'd much rather there was a focus on learning how the good teachers manage to control a class without raising their voice(by making it interesting)

There is.

put in some controls to weed out the people who really shouldn't be in a classroom.

This is very interesting. Programme on the radio a while back about this - letting 14 year old kids go out to work if they needed it. One kid hated school and was always in trouble - well really school was nto for him, so they let him out two days a week to work as a builder's labourer and he was transformed, cos he finally was not wasting his time and being frustrated.

A more flexible approach is definitely a good thing.

As a teacher and a parent, I'm against the use of corporal punishment for all the reasons outlines above.

I love the idea that we had no problems at all when it was used in schools. Anyone remember football hooligans?

I take it that spelling and gramm[b]e[/b]r weren't very high priorities

Heh!

Oh, teh ironing....!

And then, right, Flashy illustrates it with a supoib pic! Qualitage!

Elfin is approve.

Oh, OK, so classroom management is just a question of being interesting, then?

This is very interesting. Programme on the radio a while back about this - letting 14 year old kids go out to work if they needed it. One kid hated school and was always in trouble - well really school was nto for him, so they let him out two days a week to work as a builder's labourer and he was transformed, cos he finally was not wasting his time and being frustrated.

A more flexible approach is definitely a good thing.

i actually ment teachers, but i definitely think there should be some sort of split in school, not sure how it should work, but clearly not everyone is geared up to the academic side of things, maybe there should be some sort of more practical side to school aimed to getting people who struggle in class into trades, I agree, not a bad idea.

i actually ment teachers, but i definitely think there should be some sort of split in school, not sure how it should work, but clearly not everyone is geared up to the academic side of things, maybe there should be some sort of more practical side to school aimed to getting people who struggle in class into trades, I agree, not a bad idea.

you mean like apprenticeships?

You know what, i've changed my mind. We should bring back the cane and belt for naughty kids at school, but it should be extended to the workplace too. Any time someone misses a deadline, is a few minutes late, takes the mick out of a colleague, wastes company time surfing the web they should be subject to a beating from the boss in front of everyone.

you mean like apprenticeships?

for the most part yes. clearly that's not a catch all however

Rapping the knuckles of an unruly student with a ruler and beating a student are two completely different things, IMO.

Why was corporal punishment discontinued in the UK?

Cannot be bothered to read the whole thread just wanted to say I have a 9 month old son, I havent hit him yet 😆 but maybe as he grows older he may get the odd smack although I hope not. As a teacher I dont want or need to be able to hit other peoples children.

Interesting debate this one, and interesting to read people's views.

Speaking as a newly qualified teacher, I'm totally against corporal punishment in schools. If it was a standard part of the job I would never have entered teaching. There are some right little scrotes in some schools that have no idea what is right and what is wrong, and they have very little respect for anybody in authority. Corporal punishment won't help these kids, it'll make them worse and they'll probably end up retaliating with their own corporal punishment for the teacher. Not a position I'd like to be in.

if you cant do teach, and get paid jack all

One thing that does annoy me about behaviour and outsiders' views of teaching (including MPs, parents, "those who can") is that every lesson should entertain the children and get them to learn through active methods that they enjoy, and the belief that this will rid the classroom of behaviour problems. Not only is this unsustainable for any teacher to achieve but it's also a load of nonsense. Some kids will appreciate that you've put the effort in and you'll get a lot from them. Others will still moan that it's boring and ask why they have to learn it. Sadly, "because physics is ace and without it the world would fall apart" doesn't often work...

What doesn't it catch?

I'm not sure whether it is really necessary. Some kids (and adults!) don't seem to learn when approached sensibly and with reason, there's only a finite amount time and number of methods that can be employed on a few children without it working to the detriment of everyone else in a system. But I'm not sure it's something that should be encouraged for widespread use.

Rather than bringing back something completely negative like the belt, I'd much rather there was a focus on learning how the good teachers manage to control a class without raising their voice(by making it interesting), and put in some controls to weed out the people who really shouldn't be in a classroom. I think that would make a much bigger difference to our education system.

I see, so everybody in my room is wanting to learn,and if they don't behave or are unruly it is down to my teaching?

I see, so everybody in my room is wanting to learn,and if they don't behave or are unruly it is down to my teaching?

Given your apparent lack of comprehension, I hope you don't teach English.

People that aren't suited to the largely academic side of schoool.

Where do kids with special educational needs fit into your model? How about the ones who learn and behave in a way that's not conducive to teaching classes of 20-30 kids? Which of your proposed responses is the right one:

a) "weed out" the teacher for not making things interesting enough for them?
b) send some 14 year old onto some "pre-vocational" track?

Are you just going to ask a thousand questions or attempt to offer an opinion at some point?

Don't you think teacher who can't handle a class should either, be removed from the post or or atleast never put in the situation of being in charge of a class they can't control? Personally I see no benefit of teacher being in charge of unruly classes, there has to be some solution.

What do with we do with the current generation of people who leave school with no qualifications what so ever? Allow them to leave school with zero ability for the real world, seems wrong to me, I propose we find a solution to help give them some skills that will be usefully to them in future life, not just exclude them cause we can't handle them..I don't think that is getting rid of them, it's trying to give them something from school.

Learning how to handle "Boring" is very important.

Its not about making it interesting its about making it relevant and ensuring they can be successful

Yep things were not perfect back in the day, but at least kids respected teachers, now they dont.

You can't generalise like that - it always depends on the school. It did then, and it still does now.

haven't read this, just thought I'd post some nostalgia for Scottish folk of a certain age, a lochgelly -
[img] [/img]

oh, my hands tingle at the thought

Yep things were not perfect back in the day, but at least kids respected teachers, now they dont.

well i got the cane for being disrespectful to teachers, so i guess that makes a bollox of that theory.

http://www.s1lochgelly.com/memories/a-history-of-the-lochgelly-tawse.html

ransos - Member
I see, so everybody in my room is wanting to learn,and if they don't behave or are unruly it is down to my teaching?
Given your apparent lack of comprehension, I hope you don't teach English.

Given [b]your[/b] inability to produce anything original or start a thread that doesn't involve trying to sell old tat, I hope [b]you[/b] go back to pinkbike

seosamh77 - Member

What,if you don't mind me asking, is it that you do that has given you such a clear insight into the education system and the failings of the staff? I mean you are not taking into account a few basics everybody who teaches understands,but why let ignorance get in the way of your opinion?

Given your inability to produce anything original or start a thread that doesn't involve trying to sell old tat, I hope you go back to pinkbike

You want a full stop for that sentence mate? Only a pahnd 🙂

What,if you don't mind me asking, is it that you do that has given you such a clear insight into the education system and the failings of the staff? I mean you are not taking into account a few basics everybody who teaches understands,but why let ignorance get in the way of your opinion?

btw why do you need to be a teacher to have an opinion of the education system, we all spent time going through it, so everyone has an experience of it.

And aslo, clearly the schools don't have all the answers, the amount of failed students going through the doors is a testament to that.

Are you just going to ask a thousand questions or attempt to offer an opinion at some point?

why do you need to be a teacher to have an opinion of the education system, we all spent time going through it, so everyone has an experience of it

Ok, that clears lots of things up. Please see Konabunny's answer above.

But having been in hospital doesn't mean my opinion on MRSA management is going to be worth anything and having read a newspaper doesn't qualify me to spout off about editing a weekly newspaper.

While I might not agree with everything Seosamh says, in fairness, the one difference with school is that you spend quite a lot of time going through it. As a son and brother of teachers, I've heard the "what would you know" line all too often wheeled out against anyone without a BEd who has anything to say about teaching/schools/education. I've met plenty, who didn't take long to leave the impression that I'd never want them teaching my kids. I'm coming across youngsters who are applying for PGCEs now, only to stave off RealWorld™ for a year. All the vocation seems to have been taken out of it. You don't seem to have to [i]want[/i] to teach anymore.

The questions I am asking illustrate...

Questions illustrate bugger all.

Anyway, we have digressed...good and bad teachers could be a whole thread by itself. 🙂

I've heard the "what would you know" line all too often wheeled out against anyone without a BEd who has anything to say about teaching/schools/education

Improving the education system is going to be a case of tying together all sorts of slow, unrewarding and complicated factors around funding, systematic reforms, the relationship with social and medical professional support, the job market for kids, parent/guardian employment, whether apprenticeships can be revived, crime and juvenile justice, housing, benefits, teacher recruitment/ retention/ education/ monitoring and a whole bunch of other stuff. Any proposed solution that thinks everything can be solved by just hitting kids more or by just making classes more "interesting" or by excluding the kids that just "aren't suited to school" is simplistic crap.

konabunny - spot on with that last post. Nicely put.

You don't seem to have to want to teach anymore.

In my opinion you do, despite the holidays and our tax payer robbing pensions its a bloody hard job and if you dont have any inbuilt desire to help kids it wouldnt be worth it. I would also add that if you are a crap teacher its the worst job in the world.

The questions I am asking illustrate how laughably simplistic your "discipline problems and lack of qualifications are results of kids being bored -> teachers are failing to interest the kids -> fire the teachers who aren't interesting enough" model of education is. This is why you're now dodging the question.

ps going through school for 11 years is a wee bit different from being in hospital for a couple of weeks, i'd imagine if i was in hospital for a 11 years i'd have a pretty good sense of the place.

Konabunny,when you become a headie, can I come and teach history at your school?

deadlydarcy - Member

DD; I don't want to suggest I know more about my own job and working enviroment than you, but I haven't seen all these probationers who are just trying to avoid a "real" job for a year coming through yet.I have just seen the usual mix of people who will make excellent teachers,right down to those who try really hard but don't have the spark. Can't really see why you would expect to actually pass probation with the mindset you mention. But if you say that is what is happening,then I better keep a very close eye on the probationers this year. 😉

EDIT;based on below, that is a fairly serious misconception about what it takes to become a teacher.

a_a, what I meant was that to train in the first place, you don't seem to have to be crazy about doing it. A few weeks here and there in a school and a well worded personal statement seems to do it (looking at doing it myself at the moment 😯 )

a_a, what I meant was that to train in the first place, you don't seem to have to be crazy about doing it. A few weeks here and there in a school and a well worded personal statement seems to do it (looking at doing it myself at the moment )

But then to get into an actual job, you have the joy of teaching applications where you have 150 people applying for one post. At least in primary that appears to be the case. I imagine they are quite choosy about who they pick, and actually wanting to teach / being good at teaching is quite helpful for getting jobs at that point.

Joe

the one difference with school is that you spend quite a lot of time going through it.

I'd imagine if i was in hospital for a 11 years i'd have a pretty good sense of the place.

I have had an organ transplant but seriously don’t ask me for advice on this or the procedure etc. I can tell you what it is like to have the op which presumably the Doc cannot do as easily.as I can as I “know” it in a way they do not.

This is getting boring... Do you have to be an expert to discuss anything? Be a pretty boring world if that was the case. Good ideas can come from anywhere, now i'm not saying my ideas where great, but if there was an attempt to discuss them openly and develop the conversation, rather than view it as an attack, well maybe someone(who is or isn't an expert) could well have pitched in with a great idea, but we'll never know since this developed into a nonsense.

Any proposed solution that thinks everything can be solved by just hitting kids more or by just making classes more "interesting" or by excluding the kids that just "aren't suited to school" is simplistic crap.

Of course it is, but those factors are worth discussing and refuting, no? As you're much more knowledgable about these things, you could pass on a bit of that experience to other people in the same way that Joe Marshall has.

There is, for example, a pretty simple comment to be made about one of Sams points regarding the number of failed kids coming out of school. Here you have an opportunity to point out something he hasn't considered in a reasonable way. Can you do it, or should I? I'm not a teacher so won't have the same depth of answer, but it's a simple response.